Yamaha FG260 12-string restoration

[curtisa]

While the strings are off (and on then off then on then off...) it's interesting to see how flat the radius on the fretboard actually is. This is a 16" radius caul from the fret press, and even in the middle there might still be a little bit of a gap, which suggests it's flatter still:

Tuning machines can finally be attached permanently. I had them unscrewed for the majority of the setup so I could see what things were doing under string tension and still be able to quickly take the strings off again to tweak things. I've just applied a little paste wax to the shafts near the mounting plate, plus a little on the holes on the inner section of the slotted headstock. This helps lubricate things while not leaving behind any oily/greasy residue that might stain the wood.

And apologies if the appearance of the paste makes it look like earwax:

The original saddle is probably another thing that's ended up replaced at some point in this guitar's past, as it never fitted the slot in the bridge properly. It was too loose and would tip forward as the strings were tuned up, which not only looked silly but also ruined the intonation of the instrument. As chance would have it I already had a bone blank in my parts drawers with a 16" radius pre-cut into the top, plus it was the correct 1/8" thickness to fit in the slot nicely without wobbling. All I have to do is take some of the height away by sanding the bottom:

With the saddle in place a final check of the action gives us about 2mm on the treble and 2.5mm on the bass:

An attempt to add some fine tuning of the intonation on the saddle by pushing back the break point on the low-E, A and B strings. The unaltered intonation was actually not too far off, but the above three strings just needed a little extra compensation added:

And finally plug the hole on the belly reducer mounting screw with some scrap rosewood. This will get trimmed down and cleaned up once the glue dries...and I'll have to take the strings off again :

[KuotaGrant]

Wow, this was an unbelievable post.  Thanks so much for doing this as I am, today, looking to buy the exact same guitar for $200 CDN.  Haven't yet seen what I'm in for but the owner seems to think there is limited bellying.  We'll see.  

Either way, the process and pictures was amazing.  The most complicated think I've done to date is refret a 1978 Yamaha FG-375S, but I'm pretty comfortable doing most of what you did except adding the bolt on neck. That was insanely detailed.

Unless I missed it how did it come out from a sound and playability standpoint?  Finally, thank-you again for all the work, pictures, technical advice, etc.  It was like sitting in a master class of luthiery.  Much appreciated.

 

[soapbarstrat]

On 4/2/2021 at 1:49 AM, Andyjr1515 said:

 'FOR GOODNESS SAKE, BEN, GET ON WITH IT!!!!!!!!'.

Maybe a British thing. I can’t watch their TV shows for similar reasons.

[curtisa]

4 hours ago, KuotaGrant said:

Unless I missed it how did it come out from a sound and playability standpoint

Thanks for your kind words. Having received some notifications of replies in this thread has reminded me that I never took finished pics if the end result. I must remedy this.

In response to your query, it's hard to say how the sound changed after all this work. The guitar was in pieces for several weeks and I never made before/after recordings of it, so my memory of how it used to sound is unreliable. However at a pinch I'd say that it is a bit more 'polite' and restrained than it used to be. This appears to be consistent with other people's experience with fitting a Bridge Doctor to their acoustic instruments. The extra mass and stiffness in the soundboard around the bridge area probably dampens the guitar and reduces responsiveness.

That said, it doesn't sound bad or wrong per se. Just a little more subdued (if my memory is to be trusted). It's certainly a lot easier to play, although the tuners are still rubbish. I may revisit them with higher quality units in the future, but for now I'm just satisfied that the guitar is actually playable.

[Andyjr1515]

6 hours ago, curtisa said:

Thanks for your kind words. Having received some notifications of replies in this thread has reminded me that I never took finished pics if the end result. I must remedy this.

In response to your query, it's hard to say how the sound changed after all this work. The guitar was in pieces for several weeks and I never made before/after recordings of it, so my memory of how it used to sound is unreliable. However at a pinch I'd say that it is a bit more 'polite' and restrained than it used to be. This appears to be consistent with other people's experience with fitting a Bridge Doctor to their acoustic instruments. The extra mass and stiffness in the soundboard around the bridge area probably dampens the guitar and reduces responsiveness.

That said, it doesn't sound bad or wrong per se. Just a little more subdued (if my memory is to be trusted). It's certainly a lot easier to play, although the tuners are still rubbish. I may revisit them with higher quality units in the future, but for now I'm just satisfied that the guitar is actually playable.

I'm glad this post has been revived.  I had someone bring me a 'bellying' guitar a couple of weeks ago and one option was a Bridge Doctor...and I thought, 'I'm SURE  I've seen someone fit one of those recently!!!' but couldn't remember who or where 

In the end - because the strings were too high a gauge for the player anyway - I popped some lighter strings on which, to my admitted surprise, eliminated all of the lift and then recut the saddle to give a much more playable action.  It turned the unplayable into a very nice acoustic. 

But I'm pleased that you've reminded me where I'd seen someone fit a Bridge Doctor and what the opinion was.  I might try one in the future  

[Mansel Davies]

Hello from Alberta, Canada.

Have to tell you this has been a very excellent, humorous and informative read. I'm about to attempt the same procedure on the same guitar and, since I'm an absolute clown with tools, you've given me great advice and possibly saved a digit or two. Any thoughts on cutting through the fret space where the body joins to save prying off the fingerboard extension?

Those who complained about the pace also probably read the 1st chapter of a book and then go straight to the last page to see how it ends.

Many thanks, indeed.

 

[curtisa]

4 hours ago, Mansel Davies said:

Any thoughts on cutting through the fret space where the body joins to save prying off the fingerboard extension?

Yikes - I still haven't taken final pics!

You can cut through the 15th fret if you like and leave the fretboard extension over the body in place. In the photos in this thread you can see that the dovetail stops pretty much underneath the 15th, which coincidentally is also the point where you'd inject steam in if you were trying to separate the glue joint using a steamer contraption (the 'traditional' steam entry point of the 14th fret isn't applicable for these Yamahas).

If you have an old clothes iron and a metal spatula it isn't that much extra work to separate the fretboard overhang though. I'd recommend trying it out. You do more damage cutting through the heel if you go for the approach I used anyway.

[Crusader]

10 hours ago, curtisa said:

Yikes - I still haven't taken final pics!

That's something else, your photography skills are also superb!

[KuotaGrant]

On 3/31/2021 at 4:32 PM, curtisa said:

There are a couple of ways to approach the next bit. The choice of method depends on factors like the value of the instrument, the construction of the neck joint, the amount of effort involved and the equipment available. The traditional method is to drill a tiny hole somewhere unobtrusive through the fretboard (say under the fret nearest the neck/body joint) and inject steam into the joint to try and loosen the glue and allow the neck to slide apart from the body. The downside to this is that I'd need to sink some more cash into obtaining the steaming gear to perform the operation, which on a no-value guitar for a one-off job isn't really on the cards. Ideally I'd also need to make or buy a special clamp that would apply pressure from underneath to push the neck upwards as the glue is softened, which makes an already expensive and complicated process well beyond the realms of practicality for this instrument.

The other method which is probably more appropriate for me, my abilities and equipment, and for an instrument like this is to cut the neck off (yikes!) and carry out a bolt-on conversion to reattach it. A bolt-on acoustic neck isn't actually as silly as it sounds, and some manufacturers like Taylor install them on their factory-new guitars. It also has the advantage of being easily reversible if I ever need to do another neck reset on this guitar furtehr down the track. I've seen it described by a couple of people elsewhere as the 'Kung Fu neck reset'

Scoring the edges of the heel will encourage the neck to separate from the body without taking big chips of finish with it:

Some tape is used to help protect the finish on either side of the saw cuts:

And then it's time to clench buttocks and start sawing. There's no turning back at this point. The saw I'm using is a flush-cutting Japanese saw with the thinnest kerf blade I could lay my hands on - less than 0.3mm. The thinner the better, as it means I'm removing as little material as possible from the heel. More material lost from the heel from the saw cut pushes the neck closer to the bridge once the neck gets reattached, potentially upsetting the intonation, so the less impact I leave here the less work I'm creating for myself later on:

The tape helps guide the saw as closely as possible to the heel. Some paraffin wax applied to the blade helps the saw cut smoothly as I get deeper into the block. I need to stop before I get to the fret board, so I take it as close as I dare and create a kerf for the blade to follow on either side of the neck:

At this point I have to stop cutting straight down as I can feel the blade just starting to kiss the truss rod. In conversations with Dave from the Vintage FG Yamaha website he had warned me that the rod ends inside the dovetail joint on these guitars, so at this point I have to switch to an angled cut to take away as much of the remaining material while working around the trussrod:

The only way to get the triangular section of neck wood remaining from the sawing operation is to wiggle the neck and body until it breaks out, and repair the broken remains later on:

At this point the guitar is making all sorts of odd creaking and groaning noises (look away now if you are easily upset):

 

[KuotaGrant]

Sorry for repeating the whole procedure above when I tried to just select this one.  QUewstion, is it possiblee to reemove the truss rod, or at least [pull it out a bit from the neck in order to make the sawing easier?  Thanks.

[Bizman62]

15 minutes ago, KuotaGrant said:

QUewstion, is it possiblee to reemove the truss rod, or at least [pull it out a bit from the neck in order to make the sawing easier?

By looking at the pictures that's not an option unless you take the fretboard off. The square thing at the end of the rod is locked in place so it won't rotate or slide, it's the solid anchor. Basically you could unscrew the adjusting nut at the headstock and pull the rod out but you can do that only after having sawed the neck but that doesn't make sense, does it? Very hypothethically, if you could drill a hole from inside the body to that anchor and by some means grab the anchor, you might be able to pull the rod. That would be much more hassle than just carefully sawing around the rod.

I wonder if there's thin enough blades available for an oscillating multitool. That might be handy for getting even closer to the rod.

[KuotaGrant]

4 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

By looking at the pictures that's not an option unless you take the fretboard off. The square thing at the end of the rod is locked in place so it won't rotate or slide, it's the solid anchor. Basically you could unscrew the adjusting nut at the headstock and pull the rod out but you can do that only after having sawed the neck but that doesn't make sense, does it? Very hypothethically, if you could drill a hole from inside the body to that anchor and by some means grab the anchor, you might be able to pull the rod. That would be much more hassle than just carefully sawing around the rod.

LOL.  Yes I saw that as I went further into the article - ooops.  And, for some reason, I am unable to edit, as in delete my posts.  Cheers to you!

[Bizman62]

11 hours ago, KuotaGrant said:

And, for some reason, I am unable to edit, as in delete my posts. 

So you can't see the "Edit" option behind the three dots in the upper right corner of your posts, or is it greyed out? For me it seems to work even for old posts. Agreed, there's no "delete" button but wiping the entire post can be done. If you can't use that option it might be because you haven't posted much yet. Can't actually remember how that is.

[Andyjr1515]

I'm pleased this thread has re-surfaced, @curtisa.  I had forgotten just what challenges you were faced with and what a great job you did in innovating, improvising and enacting the solutions!  

Great work.

[KuotaGrant]

11 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

So you can't see the "Edit" option behind the three dots in the upper right corner of your posts, or is it greyed out? For me it seems to work even for old posts. Agreed, there's no "delete" button but wiping the entire post can be done. If you can't use that option it might be because you haven't posted much yet. Can't actually remember how that is.

Unfortunately, no.  I just get the Report and Share options.  Thanks

[curtisa]

4 hours ago, KuotaGrant said:

Unfortunately, no.  I just get the Report and Share options.  Thanks

FWIW your membership automagically advances from 'New Member' to 'Member' after three posts, after which you have the ability to edit. Let me know (preferably via PM rather than in this thread) if this still isn't working for you and I'll have a look.

[curtisa]

On 3/9/2024 at 6:19 AM, KuotaGrant said:

QUewstion, is it possiblee to reemove the truss rod, or at least [pull it out a bit from the neck in order to make the sawing easier?  Thanks.

At the time I dd consider replacing the truss rod with something a little more user-friendly like a double-action unit, but it would have been more work than I was willing to expend on the guitar. Complete removal of the fretboard would have been the only way to do it, which I specifically wanted to avoid.

As @Bizman62 points out, the anchor block at the base of the neck, which is permanently attached to the rod. prevents the truss rod from being removed by drawing it out of the headstock-end. In practice it wasn't too difficult to saw through 95% of the heel; it was obvious when the blade finally came into contact with the rod and I could change the angle cutting angle and ease my way down as low as possible without causing damage to the blade. The last two little bits of triangular-shaped wood still attaching the heel to the body were easy to break by wiggling the neck side-to-side.

Edit: out of interest, are you also doing a neck reset on a Yamaha FG acoustic?

[KuotaGrant]

Oops.

 

Edited March 10 by KuotaGrant

[KuotaGrant]

9 hours ago, curtisa said:

At the time I dd consider replacing the truss rod with something a little more user-friendly like a double-action unit, but it would have been more work than I was willing to expend on the guitar. Complete removal of the fretboard would have been the only way to do it, which I specifically wanted to avoid.

As @Bizman62 points out, the anchor block at the base of the neck, which is permanently attached to the rod. prevents the truss rod from being removed by drawing it out of the headstock-end. In practice it wasn't too difficult to saw through 95% of the heel; it was obvious when the blade finally came into contact with the rod and I could change the angle cutting angle and ease my way down as low as possible without causing damage to the blade. The last two little bits of triangular-shaped wood still attaching the heel to the body were easy to break by wiggling the neck side-to-side.

Edit: out of interest, are you also doing a neck reset on a Yamaha FG acoustic?

Thanks for your informative reply.  I'm not doing a reset.......yet.  I'm just a hobbyist and I like finding cheap, decent guitars and working on them.  Today I did my 2nd acoustic refret and the first without an instructor guiding me.  LOL

It went better than expected because I was using good tools.  I'm retired and in the fortunate position to be able to afford StewMac tools, etc., and good tools make all the difference.  

Definitely want to do a reset at some point, and your project was just so good I really got a feel for what to do and just how much time and ingenuity it takes.  Thank-you for sharing your expertise and taking the time to document.  Very much appreciated!