Andyjr1515 Posted July 31, 2021 Report Share Posted July 31, 2021 Is Andyjr1515 going to meet his Nemesis? In fact, if I ever finish this - and to a state that I can enter it into the GOTM - I may as well call it "Andy's Nemesis" As these things often do, it started with a routine enquiry. Would I be able to build something with the body shape of the Trini Lopez Deluxe version of a 335? Didn't have to be a semi - maybe a solid-body, or a chambered thinline...any construction as long as it was the shape of a Trini Deluxe. For those who don't know, the Gibson Trini Lopez Deluxe was 335 based, but had florentine horns rather than rounded ones, had diamond sound holes and a fenderish/firebirdish 6 in a row headstock. Here's a pic of one: "Yes - I'm sure that would be possible. They are big, though. Would you prefer more like the 339 size?" Just to illustrate, this is a 339 size (think Les Paul) versus a full size 335 version: "No" was the answer. "Full size" "OK - no problem." "And could it have a Maestro Vibrola?" (that's one of these) "Don't see why not." "And the Steinberger banjo tuners?" "Yup - they're a bit pricey but they are back on the market" A side comment - they are also the best tuners I've ever used...and they were at one stage fitted as standard on the Epiphone budget version of the Firebird!!!!! "And a multi-laminate neck?" "Absolutely. Yes" "And can the top be ebony?" PAUSE "Ebony? Ebony?? Ebony????? Er...No! Apart from the weight - and this is going to be a mighty hefty guitar in the first place - you just can't get ebony in that kind of width." But I slept on it. Then did some research. And I was sort of right - you can't get ebony wide enough for 1/2 of the immense width of a 335 body. But you CAN get it a few inches narrower. Generally not all black, but hmmm... And what if we had a multi-laminate through neck visible at the top (think Aria's/Alembics and a few others - this sort of thing)? Then you could get something like this... And yes...that's an actual piece of bookmatched ebony because, yes, that's now my new project. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie H 72 Posted July 31, 2021 Report Share Posted July 31, 2021 Love it. This is gonna be crazy. And that piece of ebony is perfect for the mull-lam look. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted August 1, 2021 Report Share Posted August 1, 2021 How thick is that ebony top? Must've cost a small fortune! I wasn't aware of that particular variant of the Trini Lopez. I assume he had multiple iterations of his signature model over the years? The majority of results I get for 'Trini Lopez Guitar' in Google show something that looks more like an ES335 with standard rounded horns and a Firebird style six-inline headstock (also the guitar Dave Grohl from the Foo Fighters is associated with). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted August 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2021 10 hours ago, curtisa said: How thick is that ebony top? Must've cost a small fortune! It's around 6.5mm. Pricewise, well...it's all relative. For UK prices, it wasn't bad. But, then again, UK prices for decent timbers are generally outrageous! It was £110 ($A208) at 6mm compared with a decent flame maple from the same supplier at £120 ($A228) When I was just checking, there was a burl maple drop top (7mm) at £280 ($A530)!! When I'm costing a build, I usually price in that the raw timber alone is going to cost me £350-£400 ($A660 -760). It isn't called by us all 'Rip-Off Britain' for nothing! Yes - I think that Trini himself played a round-horned custom. No doubt some marketing exec got involved at the time and brought out the 'deluxe' with the florentines. Pretty, though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invader Zim Posted August 1, 2021 Report Share Posted August 1, 2021 (edited) On 7/31/2021 at 10:09 AM, Andyjr1515 said: For those who don't know, the Gibson Trini Lopez Deluxe was 335 based, but had florentine horns rather than rounded ones, had diamond sound holes and a fenderish/firebirdish 6 in a row headstock. Here's a pic of one: The Barney Kessel Model came out in 1961. Edited August 1, 2021 by Invader Zim 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akula Posted August 2, 2021 Report Share Posted August 2, 2021 Nice find on that ebony! That's gonna look fantastic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted August 2, 2021 Report Share Posted August 2, 2021 On 7/31/2021 at 9:09 AM, Andyjr1515 said: But I slept on it. Then did some research. And I was sort of right - you can't get ebony wide enough for 1/2 of the immense width of a 335 body. I know where there is a pallet of rough cut end sealed Cameroon ebony. The pieces all average two inches thick and 4 feet long in widths of 4 inches up to at least 8 inches. The price must rival gold, as I haven't seen any evidence of movement over the last 8 years or so. SR 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 On 8/1/2021 at 9:22 PM, Andyjr1515 said: It's around 6.5mm. Pricewise, well...it's all relative. For UK prices, it wasn't bad. But, then again, UK prices for decent timbers are generally outrageous! Aye. Imported species down here (ie, pretty much any of the 'standard' ones used in guitars) are massively overpriced for us too. In many cases it's cheaper to buy a finished instrument than it is to buy the raw timber to make the same thing! Having said that, 110 quid is (seems?) outrageously good value for the ebony pair. I don't think I'd have a snowball's chance in hell of getting those for a quarter of that price, notwithstanding even managing to import it here through CITES in the first place. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akula Posted August 3, 2021 Report Share Posted August 3, 2021 4 hours ago, curtisa said: Imported species down here (ie, pretty much any of the 'standard' ones used in guitars) are massively overpriced for us too. In many cases it's cheaper to buy a finished instrument than it is to buy the raw timber to make the same thing! I've found a good supplier in Marrickville, Sydney, that do most of the "standard" ones - but I'm sure someone as established as yourself would know about Anagote already. Anything figured or fancy, like a decent quilted maple top, I have no idea about, though. Back when I lived in the UK, I found most of my stuff through eBay. Couldn't really find many decent timber mills in my cider-soaked part of the country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted August 6, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2021 In the background, J (who I am building it for) and I are kicking around thoughts of the timbers for the laminated through neck. Its base will be mahogany, but we then have a decent set of options for the other laminates (7-9 altogether). In the meantime, I'm getting prepared by starting to think long and hard about the construction of the wings, given the materials I'll be using. I should stress that this isn't a clone - J has given me major leeway of how it's built other than the outline shape should be T-L deluxe-like and the width and length per full size The basic concept is straightforward. A visible through neck - wider than this mockup through the body and multi-laminate: With the two hollowed or hollow wings, ebony on top and walnut at the back and sides. This below is dampened to show the broad colour it will end up (and that quilting will really pop out when the finish is applied!). Again, this is just illustrative. Clearly, the neck at the back will be flush with the neck and will probably be dished : The pondering here is that, originally, I was thinking of a standard-ish acoustic kerfing strip back/sides with the ebony on top - the slotted strip you may have seen down an acoustic guitar soundhole that the thin back and sides glue onto. This sort of thing (albeit as wings glued to the through neck): However, by far the most influential element is going to be the ebony tops to the wings...and I can't be certain they are going to naturally want to stay flat and straight - they may need clamping and gluing flat (even well seasoned timber moves around if you let it in different humidity conditions). So the alternative is a couple of rigid frames something like this (again, just for the wings, glued to the through neck): Now the ebony is being brought in progressively to workshop conditions, I will be able to see how well it behaves and judge whether a kerf-strip and thin-wall back and sides based hollow construction will suffice or whether it needs the above kind of rigid structure underneath the walnut back and sides. I love this kind of stuff Next job is getting ready with the bending mould. Even if I have a solid surround as above, I'll be lining it on the outside with walnut sides bookmatched with the back wood and so will be pre-bending it.I will cut a block/blocks that will act as the formers for the florentine horns so that my shapes don't 'drift' out position or dimension: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted August 7, 2021 Report Share Posted August 7, 2021 Quite the challenging build you two have devised. I expect it to be informative, entertaining, and awe inspiring to watch this come together. SR 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted August 7, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2021 1 hour ago, ScottR said: Quite the challenging build you two have devised. I expect it to be informative, entertaining, and awe inspiring to watch this come together. SR Hmmm....well, entertaining at least What's that wonderful german phrase? Schadenfreude? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted August 7, 2021 Report Share Posted August 7, 2021 55 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said: What's that wonderful german phrase? Schadenfreude? I wouldn't use that phrase until you utterly fail for our amusement. Which I hope won't happen. We have a one word translation for Schadenfreude. I've always wondered if that's something that native English speakers never feel! A primitive Fenno-German state of mind that the Brit-'Muricans sitting on a higher branch of the Tree of Civilization have no personal experience of?? Then again, the latter also don't seem to need to put their smaller children somewhere outside home during the working hours, hence Kindergarten. Either one of the parents doesn't have to work or if both do, they can afford a nanny - which after Brexit may have become too expensive as the au-pairs have to be paid some serious money. Maybe that will bring a new word to the English language? Infantinarium? Kiddygarden? Childjail? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gogzs Posted August 8, 2021 Report Share Posted August 8, 2021 Uhhhh, this is getting more interesting with every post... godspeed! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted August 8, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2021 And so from the outline drawing above, I have cut what will become the template for the filler block to turn the mould from a 335 to a Trini deluxe: I'll find some offcut to use for the insert and, when it is cut, it will fit into the mould here: The white stripe is where the visible through neck will be. While I am sure this will be a bit of a rocky ride, seeing this here makes me very excited to how this could look when it's finished 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted August 8, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2021 And likewise the back: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted August 8, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2021 I don't know about the other builders, but most of the time my 'bits of wood left over that might come in useful some day' just get in the way and clog up my pretty tight storage space. Like this too-long-to-throw-away-but-too-short-to-use piece of mahogany offcut from a previous neck build. But I have a use for it at last! One florentine-ready mould: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted August 8, 2021 Report Share Posted August 8, 2021 If I were doing that, weight would be the most imperative consideration above nearly everything else. The Ebony being figured into the equation, as well as the massive size of the instrument. Something else needs to suck up the hit of the weight or that train can leave the tracks pretty quickly. Your client may not understand this, as clients sometimes only use their eyes of lustful desire and not much else. You may need to be the brakeman here, and you may need to lay it on hard. I would substitute something like Butternut instead of Mahogany, for example. I would say Basswood, but that's so boring to look at, but you get the general idea. Try to choose the right wood right from the start so you don't wind up trying to counterbalance a bad wood call by drilling a thousand holes or something. Or else it will wind up a very beautiful Trini Lopez boat anchor, sailing to the very depths of the sea. At every turn, at every opportunity, I would keep the weight in consideration and save wherever you possibly can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted August 8, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2021 5 hours ago, Drak said: If I were doing that, weight would be the most imperative consideration above nearly everything else. After a series of lightweight builds (my last double humbucker build was 5.2 lbs), this is the other end of the scale. J is a big guy who reckons he can't play a Les Paul because they look ridiculously small on him and that heavyweight guitars aren't a problem to him. That said, I will be doing a fair bit of weight reduction trickery on this too just out of principle. I will be surprised and disappointed if it is much heavier than a medium weight lp/ strat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted August 9, 2021 Report Share Posted August 9, 2021 My bad. When I was doing the read-through, I thought it said multi-laminate Neck-Through. Doing the logistics of a neck-through using Ebony of that size on a body of that size (and depth) led to that comment. I re-read it back and saw it said multi-laminate neck, not neck-through. And, of course, the fact that you're building for a Paul Bunyan sized man was, of course, unknown to me. Carry on then! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted August 9, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2021 4 hours ago, Drak said: I re-read it back and saw it said multi-laminate neck, not neck-through. Actually, you were quite right in your assumptions and concerns and it is my bad for not explaining well enough the spec - Yes. It is planned to be a full through neck. This type of thing, with the neck visible top and bottom, but with two hollow, ebony topped wings instead of the solid wood shown here: - However...and here I certainly wasn't clear enough... J's only stipulation is that the outline profile should be Trini deluxe-like (oh...and the ebony bit). He is happy for it to be any thickness and construction method I choose. So I could, if I wanted to, make it just like the above example with simply a thin ebony drop top or similar added to the top. - My plan (more like hunch at the moment, tbh) is that I do make it a slimline - I'm thinking around 1.5" to 1.75". The wings would be a pair of 0.1" walnut sheet semi-acoustic boxes, albeit with the 0.3" ebony as a top rather than the walnut. If my hunch is correct, I don't think that the wings will be much heavier than many solid-bodied electrics around, that tend to be thicker. The ebony top will also be hollowed and carved (admittedly a challenge in itself) which should take out a bit more weight - There are, though, some unknowns. For example, if I have to have to have a rigid periphery to the boxes to ensure that they don't warp, then that will add weight. The above may not work, of course. The advantage I do have is that - because the wings will be glue-on rather than integral as they are in most of my other builds - I can actually make the three components separately and judge if we're going to have a problem structurally or weight-wise while there is still a possibility of trying something different. As I say in my opening statement, this build may well turn out to be my Nemesis. But it'll be fun (for me and probably amusing for everyone else) to find out if it is or not. And anyone following this crazy journey, never be afraid to flag if you think I might have missed something...because the chances are that I probably have 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted August 9, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2021 My acoustic back radius dish has seen better days...but it still does the job. It has a 15 foot radius and I will be using is to shape the back walnut sheet: So the idea is that each wing will have a mahogany middle piece that will act as the gluing surface to the through-neck and also to widen, albeit internally, the through neck for the bridge fixings and humbucker chambers. So imagine there is a through neck in the middle of these two sides: And imagine that the walnut backs are glued to these bearers, that there is a slim pair of walnut sides bent round the periphery and that the ebony top will be glued to the top of these two bearers and the tops of the bent sides. But to get the back to dish, the bottoms of those two bearers will need shaping. Below is a variation of a very simple technique that I picked up on one of these forums to shape bearers. The pro's use a washer and a pencil, but I didn't have a washer the right size so have used a small piece of wood, drilled to let my felt tip poke out the other side: The drilled hole gets the felt-tip just reaching the bottom of the wood at the lowest point of the radius dish. So if I move the spacer and pen either way, it will scribe the shape of the dish on the wood: I then bandsaw and plane up to this line and I have a pair of shaped formers that will form and hold the curve of the back walnut sheet. The through neck will be carved the same shape at the back: Well - it might work... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistermikev Posted August 10, 2021 Report Share Posted August 10, 2021 "he's just ambitious" very ambitious build, very cool. Instantly had this song in my head lol! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADFinlayson Posted August 10, 2021 Report Share Posted August 10, 2021 Wow your man J did a real number on you looking forward to seeing how this one comes out 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted August 11, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2021 By and large the deepest component (crazy-deep 5-way levers excepted) that is going to fit in the chamber is a push-pull (where spec'd) body and for the sides it's the surprisingly large hole you have to drill for the jack springs and contacts: So, using the mould as the datum, I can measure how far off the bottom of what will be the walnut back the ebony top needs to be: And, because the ebony sheet is flat bottomed, I can measure how far down from the bottom of my beam here the mating surfaces of the mahogany side pieces and walnut sides need to be. I first marked where the tops of the mahogany side pieces need to be and cut them: And then also marked some blue dots on the inside face of the mould to mark where the top of the sides will come...I will use this to make a paper template to be able to pre-cut the shape in the walnut sheet for the side pieces before I bend them (ask me how I've found out that's an important step!): So now you should be able to see the idea. The back walnut will be pressed into the mould and held in that shape by the mahogany side pieces and some additional spruce braces, the guitar sides will be bent and go from the back walnut up to the blue dotted line, and the flat-bottomed walnut will lay on top of the side pieces and walnut sides. I'm sure I'm being over-optimistic, but I still think this might work! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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