ESP M-II type "Invaders" Superstrat

[Prostheta]

I'm starting this thread out in the Design Bar purely because this isn't a priority build or a specific project for me at the moment. I've been wanting to recreate my old 80s/90s ESP "The Mirage" with its carved top and various other odd aspects that I haven't been able to find in any other Mirage or Horizon of the time. In some way this will just be a flat body version of that project, or more in line with the original Mirage model which is now the M-II (and KH-2).

This will be a different beast to what I'm doing with my actual priority project, which is the Aria Pro II PE/Les Paul singlecut. This one has all of the important materials on hand except the hardware, so can be progressed without financial investment.

Holy shitballs! Whilst doing a Google Image Search on ESP Mirages I came across my old unique custom shop Mirage....

 

....so anyway, I'm not building that yet! It's on my hitlist, however I am wanting to build it with specifically-chosen woods, especially the carved Maple top.

What we're going to be doing here is more in line with the original Mirage, and we'll be using materials that are already on hand; a bone-dry Sapele body, a laminated flame Maple/Bubinga neck, Ebony fingerboard and maybe even spare hardware I have.

<edit: This project was intended to be a stopgap build with ideas being thrown around. Much of this thread sort of goes through that roundabout stream-of-consciousness spitballing, so scan through till later where the final build starts. Initially there was no immediate concept!>

[Prostheta]

The body was marked out for an RG shape a long while back. Not sure why this neck blank exists. It's a pin-tight flame neck shaft with a plain Maple scarfed headstock at 13deg.

There's the option of making this either a fixed bridge or have it trem-equipped. The hardware I have laying around is pretty much all chrome which is a bummer.

The voices in my head are telling me to paint it black, and the looming sky Drak makes me want to put EMGs in it.

Hmm. What do you guys think about a green and black paint scheme, a cross betwixt a KH-2 and a Type O Negative colour scheme; a pair of EMG Bone Breakers, green acrylic inlays (KH skulls?) or even cast luminescent powder in epoxy with green tint? Green fibre optic side markers....?

Yeah, that seems pretty do-able. I might even get to use this as practice for shooting colour coats. Making a straight-ahead metal machine. It's been too long.

[Prostheta]

Let's draw up a provisional specs sheet:

Neck

• Bolt-on Maple/Bubinga 5-piece neck
• 13deg scarfed Maple headstock, reverse pre-lawsuit "Jackson" style
• Gotoh U-channel truss rod
• Ebony fingerboard
• 24 frets inc. zero fret
• Dunlop 6150 fretwire
• M5 threaded neck inserts
• Gloss black headstock face
• Cast-in-place luminescent binding?
• KH style skull inlays to match luminescent binding accents
• Fibre-optic side markers

Body

• Two-piece Sapele
• Gloss black paint
• Cast-in-place luminescent binding?
• Modified square heel

Hardware

• Black Gotoh SG381 or similar, possibly locking
• Football jack plate
• Gotoh dual battery box for 18v supply

Electronics

• EMG KH-BB set
• Volume/Tone, tone wired to neck pickup only
• 3-way blade switch

 

-----

Did I forget anything?

So anyway, "luminescent binding accents" and "cast in place". I've discussed this a few times here and there over the years, so I figured that this is as good an opportunity to explore and detail this as any. The initial idea for this came from Music Man:

(skip to 10:45 if this embed doesn't do so already)

 

[Prostheta]

So what I intend to do is to make the body in a three-stage process on the CNC. Firstly, the binding channel is cut into the top (including around the forearm contour) before that is cleaned out and filled with a magic mixture of something like two-part casting resin, green strontium aluminate luminescent powder and a little green dye. Getting this mixture right is going to take a bit of testing. The dye is to give the mixture a good colour during normal lighting conditions, however too much dye and the glow may end up being dampened. Too little and it can look a little pale. Too much powder and it becomes more like a chalky goop than a freely-flowing syrup. Ideally it needs to be as close to Pantone 369 as possible:

I think I'll call this guitar "Green Demon". Maybe the inlays need modding from KH skulls to something more demonic? Dot markers with horns? 

I think the binding presents enough challenges as it stands. As far as side markers go, LED or fibre optics will likely get lost in the glare of the glowing binding in the dark. Perhaps even black dots will do the same. Plenty of fuel for testing.

[Prostheta]

This build is going to be in the phase of throwing ideas around for a week or two. Primarily I'd like to end up with the body and neck for a modern superstrat (so 90s!) type guitar that I just don't have at the moment, using materials that I have on hand right now and can fill in the parts for those I don't. For the latter, the specs must be absolutely known and reliable since I've never thought it's a good idea to do design work without having taken physical measurements or having dimensions that come with a high sense of reliance.

Having rolled the idea around in my head (and a couple of evening sauna beers rolled back into it) I figure that this is good low-commitment project where I can test the practicalities of inlaying and casting in place. The only financial commitment being those materials. The end design of a black and green/glow M-II/Mirage guitar is pretty much the only design specific.

The other concept for the guitar beyond a Steele Green guitar or a green KH-2 is the classic retro Space Invader arcade guitar idea which would tie up with the glow concept as well. The 2D-ness of the pixel art might lend itself to a perspective warp based roughly around a multiscale's apparent single-point perspective trick (this is another discussion of course) however I don't think I want to go the multiscale route. A straight 25,5" single scale is good I think.

I'm open to thoughts (clearly, since I am letting the voices and @Drak influence me) as long as they're within the constraints set.

[Prostheta]

So, casting in place.

The body binding concept requires that a body blank can be set in place on the CNC bed, removed and replaced accurately to within say, a tenth of a mm. That sort of repeatability. The initial operation would be a 2,5D cut done to the depth of the binding from the top of the blank, with a curve in Z following the forearm contour's depth. I imagine that a cutter capable of around 12mm/0,5" reach plus the binding depth of 6mm/0,25" would need to a diameter of maybe 6-8mm.

So this is the sort of path that I would define a cutter to follow using a pure XYZ move. Defining the move as a perimeter cut (rather than centric), adding an offset towards the body equal to the desired thickness of the binding with successive cuts increasing in depth to 6mm should do the trick. This is simply a sketch at the moment. The actual path will have slight extension either end of the neck pocket.

 

Casting in place allows a number of options that is either difficult/impractical for normal binding or just plain impossible. For example, outlining pickup routes or control locations.

[Prostheta]

A bit of research into how EB do their binding shows that it's a two-part epoxy of some sort which isn't a million miles away from what I'm aiming to achieve.

A quick back-of-the-beermat calculation of volume for the channel is approx. 1400mm of length (call it 1,5m) at 8mm width and 6mm depth. Call it 8mm depth to allow for the forearm contour. I decided on the 8mm cut width so that the channel is easier to manually clean out, plus I can use an 8mm spiral upshear bit to clear the channel of debris better. That's 96'000 cubic mm, call it 100'000 or 100ml of epoxy. Not bad.

The fingerboard would require a bit more consideration since it is mostly an open-ended cut unlike a body blank with excess material (at least, I think it has). In this instance the process would require sacrificial material to be glued to the blank so that the channel milling forms a cohesive dam.

[Prostheta]

So, for the CNC we only need the modified 3D perimeter outline of the body (generally as a DXF) and the rest can be done in the CNC programming software.

So we'd start out with something like this (the body blank modelled from real-world dimensions):

 

....which as 2D projections looks like this:

 

For the purposes of illustration with Rhino (which all this is, since the CNC doesn't need any of this) the perimeter line (green) was offset by 1,5mm into the body (binding channel width) and that itself was offset the other direction 8mm with round endcaps (orange). This produces a good simulation of the base of the toolpath.

 

So in principle, this milling procedure should leave us with something like this:

 

Backfilling the channel gives us this:

[Prostheta]

This is isn't entirely the sort of work order that I would use, however this is purely to demonstrate the proofs of how this binding in place method should work.

Perimeter milled:

 

....and around the other side....

[Prostheta]

The forearm contour is a cylindrical section set at an angle to the body with the cross-sectional apex meeting at the top face of the body.

 

The manoeuvers that the CNC can do to remove this material are many. Primarily, this will be defined by importing the arc cross section and extruding it as a surface within the CAD programming software. It can then do a variety of CAM functions against this surface including simultaneous 5-axis movements. I'll probably decide the exact milling strategy at the console, however I suspect that I'll do it as a few roughing passes to protect unsupported grain. Whether these are moves over the curve or along it is debatable, especially since this is a one-off build. In a manufacturing context this would be a huge consideration in order to reduce cycle time from part to part.

 

Removing this material should leave us with this.

[Prostheta]

Alright, I've pocket-moneyed some glow powder and I'm going to try out a general purpose crystal-clear casting resin for this. I've mulled over the inlays a little, since casting epoxy is thin enough to fill chips and splinters and even the most minor tearout. In that respect, it's probably a better idea to try casting inlays in solid HDPE or similar. For the body, any defects in the channel will still fill with epoxy but will be covered by a clean scraped line after paint. I'm unsure whether to scrape the sides or just tape these.

The fingerboard might present a challenge logistically. Since this is not going to be helped by paint hiding minor imperfections then the edges either need to be perfectly-smooth with no ragged fibres (even Ebony can do this) or we have to figure out a cheat of some sort. I'm half-considering using a couple of shellac washes along the sides to "pre-fill" pores and missing fibres, following this with a high grit sanding and repeating once or twice, this should leave a smooth transition line....in theory.

[Bizman62]

2 hours ago, Prostheta said:

I've mulled over the inlays a little, since casting epoxy is thin enough to fill chips and splinters and even the most minor tearout.

Can't you use some sort of pore filler in the channel?

[Prostheta]

Quite likely not. The working process for this is the problem. The way I imagine the neck being milled is to get it onto the CNC using two or three vacuum consoles with the front and left edges referenced against the pneumatic pillar stops. Firstly, the truss rod slot would need to be milled so this can be fitted and the Ebony fingerboard (with sacrificial material added) glued in place. The workpiece then needs to go back onto the CNC in exactly the same place. The pillar stops have excellent repeatability so we're looking at a small fraction of a mm at most between cycles.

Next, the fingerboard binding perimeter is milled in multiple passes with a fine cutter, maybe 4-5mm. The same can be done with the headstock perimeter. This will all be done off the CNC as most casting resins needs a long time to cure, some even in the order of days. In discussion with the glow powder vendor, a finer powder is better in suspension than the coarse (think, granulated sugar) stuff which sinks in the resin under gravity. The trick here is how to get a good fill in a channel that isn't flat across its entire length, what with the headstock angle. It might have to be that the resin's gel time needs testing so that it can be done in two stages; one with the fingerboard channel being level until it gels, then repositioning so that the headstock is level and pouring that separately. The two should in theory bond well chemically, but there's definitely potential for a visible seam line. Again, one to test out.

So, once the neck and headstock binding channels have been poured and cured out, the neck can be machined fully on the CNC. This would consist of the perimeter of the headstock, tuner locations, neck perimeter (to within a couple of mm of full depth so the vacuum consoles can hold the workpiece) and a radius over the fingerboard. Additionally, the fretboard can be slotted with a 0,5mm cutter and inlay pockets cut.

The problem as I see it, is that the surface that would need sealing and cleaning is part of an internal channel. Very difficult to apply shellac to and then to sand. That said, it's straight and square so a tiny sanding block (piece of aluminium? a square metal washer?) with a stamp-sized piece of 320 paper should work with a bit of patience. 

This is the hardware used for workholding on the CNC I operate:

[mistermikev]

looking fwd to seeing that binding.  I understand that's how musicman does it.  

that esp is a lovely guitar.  looks like a fast player.

you really going balls out as of late!  right on.

[Prostheta]

This is perhaps getting a little ahead of myself, however I'e always been impressed with the gloss on the original black Ibanez Universe.

 

The black found on most production instruments is somewhat lacklustre with the bare minimum of clearcoating, cutting back and polishing. This will require neurotic levels of prep work on the base material, flatting the colour and finishing with either straight clear or a 50/50 mix. Plus even more flatting and polishing.

[Prostheta]

57 minutes ago, mistermikev said:

looking fwd to seeing that binding.  I understand that's how musicman does it.  

that esp is a lovely guitar.  looks like a fast player.

you really going balls out as of late!  right on.

 

Thanks Mike. In some ways I'm hurried to get my immediate CNC stuff "out of my head" whilst I am still able, however I'm still in my usual mode of constant improvement; focusing on getting better at skill X or Y rather than just pulling the same rabbit out of the hat (Zakk Wylde syndrome?).

Yeah, that old ESP was godly. The best information I have on it is that it was produced prior to the ESP/Jackson lawsuit era which I think was somewhere around '87. Correct me if I'm wrong, don't count on that as fact! Also, Mirages never had carved tops. That was the Horizon model. So the best I can come up with is that it was a prototype Horizon, but full-depth as in Les Paul thick! Like a Mirage with a big thick top plonked on top. The fit and finish were unreal, and it taught me so much about what a guitar should be. Of course, I am still falling short of that mark, but I'm circling and eyeballing it! That top was crazy....pencil thin flame but subtle. Yeah, I was the biggest idiot ever for selling that. It was the cream of the cream.

[mistermikev]

14 minutes ago, Prostheta said:

 

Thanks Mike. In some ways I'm hurried to get my immediate CNC stuff "out of my head" whilst I am still able, however I'm still in my usual mode of constant improvement; focusing on getting better at skill X or Y rather than just pulling the same rabbit out of the hat (Zakk Wylde syndrome?).

Yeah, that old ESP was godly. The best information I have on it is that it was produced prior to the ESP/Jackson lawsuit era which I think was somewhere around '87. Correct me if I'm wrong, don't count on that as fact! Also, Mirages never had carved tops. That was the Horizon model. So the best I can come up with is that it was a prototype Horizon, but full-depth as in Les Paul thick! Like a Mirage with a big thick top plonked on top. The fit and finish were unreal, and it taught me so much about what a guitar should be. Of course, I am still falling short of that mark, but I'm circling and eyeballing it! That top was crazy....pencil thin flame but subtle. Yeah, I was the biggest idiot ever for selling that. It was the cream of the cream.

well no esp expert here... but I remember the esp custom shop on sunset blvd in the 'rock walk' in la.  have been there many times.  just crazy good guitars there every time I went but that was around 95.  If I'm not mistaken you could walk in there and say "i want this shape with this carve, these pickups, this bridge in this wood" and they'd do it.  

for me... the one that got away was a gibson sg90.  it didn't get away as much as it had a headstock break back before I knew anything about fixing such things.  guitar just was made for me.  the steinberger trem on it was awesome altho the bases were not made well, and it had issues.  I will gather what I can from your bravery and someday attempt to remake my 'dream guitar'!

[Prostheta]

Man, that sounds like a bad idea for the bank account walking into one of those dens! Mine was a Japanese custom shop build from what I am aware. ESP lost loads of their records including those referring to "mine" back in the 90s. I would genuinely have ESP build me an absolute repro (but HH) if I could a) afford it b) get them to do a lawsuit headstock and c) wasn't willing to up my game to try and hit that level of awesome.

So far none of those are on the table right now. haha

[Prostheta]

So I've been shopping around for both glow powder and casting resin. Currently the casting resin is feeling like a bit of a crapshoot, however Tom at http://chaostrade.eu has been absolutely stellar in his advice on how to make what I'm doing work. A lot of sellers of these types of products hide behind hyperbole and empty marketing, whereas Tom works from specs. I like that, as it makes things a lot more quantifiable.

My initial idea was to go straight to the coarsest grain, which also has the highest output and dwell time. Tom also read into what I'm doing here and recommended compatible pigments, plus excellent advice on ratios and mixing strategies.

The principle is that pigment and powder should be added to the resin to achieve the desired colour, then add the hardener. That way the recipe can be tweaked before you're "on the clock". The resins I'm looking at give me something like an hour of working time, with a few days for final curing. Given the difficulties that the fingerboard and headstock planes present, I would envisage that this would require some degree of "splitting" the resin mixture between the fingerboard pour and that of the headstock. Getting the timing right between each of these is key in achieving a (hopefully) seamless chemical bond between each without gravity causing the first pour to slump after repositioning.

I'll give a full breakdown of how testing works out; comparisons of 10%, 20% and 30% for glow powder plus experiments on how the pigment changes things.

If this works out well, I might be convinced to pour the binding for other projects as well, including the PE/Les Paul build when that happens. I'm very curious to find out how the binding "feels" in comparison to more conventional materials like ABS/celluloid/CAB.

[mistermikev]

23 hours ago, Prostheta said:

Man, that sounds like a bad idea for the bank account walking into one of those dens! Mine was a Japanese custom shop build from what I am aware. ESP lost loads of their records including those referring to "mine" back in the 90s. I would genuinely have ESP build me an absolute repro (but HH) if I could a) afford it b) get them to do a lawsuit headstock and c) wasn't willing to up my game to try and hit that level of awesome.

So far none of those are on the table right now. haha

I'm quite certain that what you will do will be every bit as good as what you'd get in that custom shop.  

had never noticed that about the ibanez universe... but now that you mention it!

[Prostheta]

I had to check myself a bit about that UV777 as I'm sure other guitars have equally stunning finish work, but that one really has something unique about it. Almost like a Bentley or high-end Merc black. In fact, those are likely the reference chips I'll be using for the paint when I get it mixed. I know custom car shops mix on an individual basis, but unless I can get the heads up on something that will hit the spot then "standard" chip mixes are probably my best bet at aiming for that.

[mistermikev]

On 8/30/2021 at 11:40 AM, Prostheta said:

I had to check myself a bit about that UV777 as I'm sure other guitars have equally stunning finish work, but that one really has something unique about it. Almost like a Bentley or high-end Merc black. In fact, those are likely the reference chips I'll be using for the paint when I get it mixed. I know custom car shops mix on an individual basis, but unless I can get the heads up on something that will hit the spot then "standard" chip mixes are probably my best bet at aiming for that.

well... anyone who's ever refinished an ibanez will tell you one key factor is probably the thickness!  have not done myself but a friend refinished one once and I guess that finish was pretty hard to get through.

[Prostheta]

Depends on the place in the range. I've seen low-end bodies with sealer so thick that would hide a body. Higher end stuff tends to use less problematic stock. It's difficult to know where this sits in that range, however this all comes down to prep. The sealing and filling all need to be perfect.

[mistermikev]

8 hours ago, Prostheta said:

Depends on the place in the range. I've seen low-end bodies with sealer so thick that would hide a body. Higher end stuff tends to use less problematic stock. It's difficult to know where this sits in that range, however this all comes down to prep. The sealing and filling all need to be perfect.

right on... well admittedly I was as much telling as asking as I figured you would know the nitty gritty and not dissapointed.

[Prostheta]

Sure, such is the weirdness of Internet phrasing, right? I've always written with the tone that is half conversation and half exposition, even what it's chatting with people I know about things....that we both know we know. Writing in this voice helps the alien archeologist lizards pick apart and digest this weird corner of the Interwebs so they don't need to rouse my brain from the jar. That and other people outside of the real timeness (real timyness?) of this thread can pan through it without zombie-threading it in ten years with "Kirk who?".