'58 Explorer - 1st build

[asgeirogm]

8 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

However, instead of steel I'd choose aluminium for frets as it's more lightweight

That makes sense, I'll have to see if I can acquire such a beam for a reasonable price

[Bizman62]

I bought mine at the local metal supplier. That's the stuff they use for building frames for lightweight walls used in e.g. public toilets and such so if you know any construction worker or pass by a building site they may have some scrap pieces available.

[asgeirogm]

That's a good tip, thanks!

[asgeirogm]

Progress on the neck, created a jig for routing the truss rod

Routed and chiseled. At first I had it completely flush with the top of the neck but then the cylinder for the Allen key was sticking a hair above the opening, so I took one more shallow pass so the cylinder is completely in the channel, but that means that the square ends of the rod are a hair under the top of the neck. Is that OK?

Cut the headstock and preparing to glue the top of the banana (wink wink). Also pictured is the headstock template I 3d printed. I've always loved the 1976+ headstock, it always reminded my of a cartoon sneaker shoe, which I think is fun, so I went with that over the 1958 headstock.

Dry fit after sanding the edges, looking pretty good

GluG

Glue removed and headstock sanded a bit, ready to be rough cut with the jig saw

I'm a tall guy and my back has been killing me since yesterday when I was hunched over the workbench chiseling out the ends of the truss rod channel, so I improvised to increase the height of the neck when sawing. Muuuuuuch better

H

Headstock cut, and I'm loving it!

Now I need to find my pattern bit which I have misplaced since using it weeks ago when routing the body...

[Bizman62]

28 minutes ago, asgeirogm said:

the cylinder is completely in the channel, but that means that the square ends of the rod are a hair under the top of the neck. Is that OK?

That looks like a StewMac Hot Rod and according to their instructions the nut should be at the bottom. Double check yours before gluing the fretboard on!

Having the rod a hair deep is better than a hair proud. If you think about single action rods, they're more than a hair loose until you tighten them.

[asgeirogm]

10 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

That looks like a StewMac Hot Rod

It's actually a Göldo WS44G Trussrod:

https://www.thomann.de/dk/goeldo_ws44g_trussrod.htm

 

I would really assume that the blue part should be up, does that sound right? 

[Bizman62]

2 minutes ago, asgeirogm said:

I would really assume that the blue part should be up, does that sound right? 

The flat part should be against the fretboard. Now that I saw it it looks a lot like the ones I've been using with the difference that  the rods I've used have that blue shrinking tube covering both parts. Göldö makes that type as well.

The reason for the nut being in the bottom is to ensure there's enough space and wood so the rod's nut won't nudge the fretboard's nut out of place.

[asgeirogm]

32 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

The flat part should be against the fretboard

Man am I glad you told me that. Just tried putting in the correct way and the Chanel is indeed a hair too deep. 

Should I sand the top of the neck a bit so it's sitting flush ? Or should I just leave it? 

Edited October 21, 2021 by asgeirogm

[Bizman62]

1 minute ago, asgeirogm said:

Should I sand the top of the neck a bit so it's sitting flush (and then just route a hair deeper under the trussrod nut)

Just to make sure we're talking the same languate, how thick are your hair? Some builders like to put a piece of masking tape over the channel, cutting it just a mm wider than the channel and some put a thin veneer over the rod to keep glue out of the channel. Some other builders roll a few pieces of masking tape and lay them over the top of the rod to keep it from rattling. Some put a few drops of silicone into the channel for the same reason. The common nominator is that the rod lays a bit deeper than just flush. Knowing that a common veneer is about 0.55 mm thick and a four fold rolled piece of tape about the same thickness (4 x 0.15 mm) it's safe to assume that 0.5 mm below the top of the neck is well within specs.

Instead of routing it's fast and easy to scrape the nut channel deeper with a chisel. By experience I can assure it can be too easy so be careful and test fit after every stroke.

[asgeirogm]

44 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

how thick are your hair?

My digital calipers are on the fritz but I would claim it was flush and then I lowered the bit by 0.2mm (according to the adjustment wheel thing on the Makita plunge router). In any case, it should be less than 0.5mm. 

I actually think I don't need to deepen under the trussrod nut, so I think all is well, unless someone tells me otherwise

[Bizman62]

Good to hear the nut fits that way too. On my  current build I kept scraping the nut area because the rod was proud at that end. When carving the neck there was a funny looking spot on the palm side of the neck and whaddayaknow, I could poke my finger through the wood! There was less than a hair's thickness of wood to cover the truss rod nut! As it is a laminated neck I could pretty easily cut a clean opening and patch it from the bottom side but it wasn't too much fun.

[asgeirogm]

5 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

There was less than a hair's thickness of wood to cover the truss rod nut!

Not the first time I've read about People having that issue on PG, which at least makes me super aware of it for My own build

 

On a sidenote, I very happy I hadn't drilled the truss rod access hole before discovering it was upside down! 

[Prostheta]

I can't say that I've ever had a problem with PVAc glue locking up a truss rod. Not with the amounts that a proper application involves. Epoxy, definitely. That's trouble. Generally it's a good idea to lubricate the rod before encasing it, taking care not to introduce contamination to the glueing areas of course. That of itself should be enough to prevent any errant glue from causing any problems.

[Bizman62]

19 minutes ago, Prostheta said:

Generally it's a good idea to lubricate the rod before encasing it, taking care not to introduce contamination to the glueing areas of course.

I've never thought of putting some vaseline on the rod but it definitely makes sense. Thanks for telling/reminding!

[Prostheta]

To be honest, I don't put much stock in truss rods these days. There's a lot of cheap imports with shady welds that rust really quickly. I'm partial to Gotoh aluminium channel rods or making my own. I just wish I could turn a better thread on stainless because I just fail. Give the rod a stress test in the vise just to make sure, clean it off and yep, lube 'er up. 

[asgeirogm]

13 hours ago, Prostheta said:

Give the rod a stress test in the vise just to make sure, clean it off and yep, lube 'er up. 

Good advice, will do

[asgeirogm]

I have some progress pics I'm going to post later but I've ran into trouble and for some reason I am utterly defeated and need some help and motivation.

I had an accident with the router and needed to make a repair on the headstock, which is fine, but I made a mistake and the piece I glued on was not level with the front of the headstock but maybe just under a millimeter lower. So, I thought I would just sand the front of the headstock level with the glued piece, but I'm seeing now that I've sanded myself into trouble in the nut area, namely:

1. The nut has been moved several millimeters down the neck, which makes the headstock look weird and too long if I keep it that way
2. My sanding was clearly not as precise as I would have wanted as it's not square
3. The end of the truss rod channel is no longer behind the start of the headstock. I could move the truss rod down the neck by a few millimeters though
4. Sanding the front of the headstock exacerbated an issue I already had, which is that the transition from neck to headstock is pretty thin, there is no volute and it might even end up thinner than with a regular scarf joint because of a mistake I made earlier where I planed the neck profile too far into the headstock part

Here are a couple of pics to illustrate the issues.

The pencil line is roughly where the headstock "started" before this fiasco

The headstock is just over 15 millimeters thick right now, and the thickness under the nut is just over 15 millimeters as well (fretboard is 6 mm thick).

The only thing I can think of that would solve problems 1, 2 & 3 is to plane the top of the headstock ever so slightly so that the transition from the headstock is square with the neck, and then make a mahogany cap for the headstock, which would essentially look exactly the same as the top of the headstock right now. This would allow me to basically transform the headstock, truss rod stuff and nut area to what is was before this whole thing. The only thing I'm not sure about is if that has any positive effects on the strength of the headstock/neck join. It seems so silly (and a bit annoying to be honest) to put an identical cap on the headstock, but it's the only solution I can come up with. I really wouldn't like to put a different type of wood cap if I could avoid it, I like the mahogany a lot as a continuance of the body.

I would really love it if some of the "older" heads here could give me some advice on what my best approach would be here

EDIT: I just realized I could also sand the top of the neck down by probably around a millimeter, just until the start of the headstock is moved back to the original "line".  This would by far be the easiest solution , but it would of course make the headstock/neck transition even thinner though, does that make that a no go?

The neck is Sapele btw. I can take a picture of the end grain if that's relevant

Edited October 28, 2021 by asgeirogm

[Prostheta]

Do that, but check Dave Higham's recent Tele build and how he adds a back strapping veneer to the headstock, in his case to the front. That will regain some thickness.

[asgeirogm]

3 minutes ago, Prostheta said:

Do that

I assume "that" is adding a cap based on the rest of your comment  I did see Dave's veneer, that was very nice.

Just so I have the full picture, dó you think taking a millimeter off the top of the neck will leave the headstock/neck transition too vulnerable? 

[Prostheta]

Yep! The one thing I would bear in mind is that when flattening a surface by sanding, you absolutely need to use a block that is perfectly flat and that the sandpaper is tight to the block. The problem that easily occurs is rounding over of edges. In the case of adding a veneer to a surface to add weight, this often leaves a seam around the edge which needs to be filled. One of the few times that I would advocate the use of epoxy for glueing wood, as this squeezes out to fill any seam and epoxy doesn't require anywhere near the clamping pressure of PVAc glues. Just that both surfaces are wet and in contact.

A millimeter can be a lot, yes. Before you attempt anything, take LOTS of measurements and even draw out your neck to illustrate them. Then you can monitor the changes as you work, being mindful of where material is being lost and checking for flatness constantly. Dial it in slowly.

[asgeirogm]

26 minutes ago, Prostheta said:

you absolutely need to use a block that is perfectly flat and that the sandpaper is tight to the block.

I was doing that but my problem was that I was not making sure 100% of the time that the block was always 100% parallel with the surface.  I will try a different technique next time. 

 

26 minutes ago, Prostheta said:

A millimeter can be a lot, yes. Before you attempt anything, take LOTS of measurements and even draw out your neck to illustrate them

I can see when looking at the side profile of the neck that if I take a millimeter off the top of the neck, the weakest part of the headstock/neck transition shouldn't be affected. But the safest thing would clearly be to put the cap on, I would just really, really prefer the solution of sanding the neck down ca 1 mm, but the last thing I want is to end up with a broken headstock. 

I'll take some pictures later and draw everything out. I'll have to mull my options over today, if I will dare to take a mill off the neck

[asgeirogm]

@Prostheta General question on scarf joints: Consider two different scenarios:

1. You have a 23 mm thick board that you scarf, and then do the side profile so that the neck thickness under the nut is 15mm and the headstock thickness is 15mm.

2. You have a board that is some thickness, but you saw in a rough side profile so that the thickness where you saw the scarf is 17mm. You then bring the thickness down to 15mm under the nut and 15mm for the headstock 

In scenario #1, the scarf joint is further down the neck towards the body than in scenario #2. Is one stronger than the other, i.e. less likely to break in case of the guitar falling down or some thing?

I would actually love it if someone has a diagram that shows where and how exactly a scarfed headstock joint is most likely to break, just to better understand the risks behind my options here. I have my suspicions but getting confirmation would be great. I will draw a diagram later of what I think

Edited October 29, 2021 by asgeirogm

[Bizman62]

56 minutes ago, Prostheta said:

The problem that easily occurs is rounding over of edges. In the case of adding a veneer to a surface to add weight, this often leaves a seam around the edge which needs to be filled. One of the few times that I would advocate the use of epoxy for glueing wood, as this squeezes out to fill any seam and epoxy doesn't require anywhere near the clamping pressure of PVAc glues.

One easy trick to "hide" the seam between similar woods is to add a thin (0.5 mm) veneer in between. Not only does it make the seam look like a designed feature, it also seems to fill minor gaps even when using regular wood glue. I suppose the thin veneer swells with the moisture and gets saturated with the glue so it doesn't shrink back when the glue dries. That method requires the normal good clamping pressure.

[Prostheta]

1 hour ago, Bizman62 said:

One easy trick to "hide" the seam between similar woods is to add a thin (0.5 mm) veneer in between. Not only does it make the seam look like a designed feature, it also seems to fill minor gaps even when using regular wood glue. I suppose the thin veneer swells with the moisture and gets saturated with the glue so it doesn't shrink back when the glue dries. That method requires the normal good clamping pressure.

I was more referring to the open seam that is left when a surface isn't flat, so that the curve on the edge "drops away" from the veneer leaving a small open line. I did this myself on an Explorer year ago, and I'm still to get around to repairing that....

Wood tends to break through the shortest path in the grain since wood is weakest parallel to the grain/growth rings. I don't have a diagram on hand, however this has been illustrated by many people over the years....just looking at a broken headstock usually shows lots of long splintering which is parallel to the grain.

In terms of sanding, it's all about balance and application of pressure. In a few ways it is similar to planing wood, in that the pressure is at the front when moving "into" the wood and at the back when leaving it. That keeps the block (or plane) flatter and more referenced to the workpiece face instead of applying excess pressure over the edges. Hold a block 50% over an edge and you know where the best place to press with your finger to stop it falling over. As far into the workpiece as possible.

[asgeirogm]

4 hours ago, Prostheta said:

Wood tends to break through the shortest path in the grain since wood is weakest parallel to the grain/growth rings. I don't have a diagram on hand, however this has been illustrated by many people over the years....just looking at a broken headstock usually shows lots of long splintering which is parallel to the grain.

But that problem is offset by a scarf joint

On my neck, if I were to remove a millimeter from the top of the neck, it would seem like it wouldn't effect the strength of the neck/headstock transition, like removing the red line here, as I would claim it doesn't really weaken the weakest part of the neck, at least not a lot (I think). I would figure the weakest part is wherever the grain is not straight enough and goes somewhat "vertically" rather than horizontally, like I've drawn in blue. I should check how the grain is on my headstock when I get home.

I would love to hear if someone smarter than me has a different opinion so I can learn before making a big mistake