Just curious how many folks in here use a triangle file for crowning

[mistermikev]

on another site... with a lot of folks who are in the biz here and there (not a luthier or building site)... I was kind of surprised that the majority of folks chiming into a thread were sort of bashing crown files.  I'm ok with that... was just surprised by it.  one of the main complaints is that the shape of the fret is sort of 'baked in' whereas a triangle file you can go along with the shape of the frets.  It's a fair point.  

generally I've always been under the assumption that a crown file would make the job faster doing both sides at once... but taking off more material (if the crown file you have isn't an exact match for the fret profile) might actually make a triangle file faster. 

I can see a lot of down sides w a triangle file... namely the consistency.  it's hard to get a straight line at the center of the fret.  

working on my frets right now... and even with 7 or 8 crown files on hand and 3 of them "jumbo" (working on jescar jumbo frets) some fit better than others.  usually my stew mac is the go to but on this job the philli luthier 's' style fit best.  

so... penny for your thoughts.

[Bizman62]

Can I give another vote? I use both a triangle and crown file. Actually I have two different crown files, both of which I've used for this current build but in the end I found that the triangle worked best this time. It varies!

3 hours ago, mistermikev said:

I can see a lot of down sides w a triangle file... namely the consistency.  it's hard to get a straight line at the center of the fret.  

I wouldn't worry about that. As long as you get a single narrow line on the fret it's in the ballpark. After all, the tuning of a guitar is never perfect, it's always a compromise. If you think about True Temperament Frets (the squiggly ones) they're way more off the straight line than just the width of a fret. I also believe that you wouldn't accept your work if the narrow line were significantly off-center of the fret. With narrow frets there's not much wiggle room anyway, with Jumbo frets you'd have to level them quite low to get the crown on one side or diagonal:

[mistermikev]

4 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

Can I give another vote? I use both a triangle and crown file. Actually I have two different crown files, both of which I've used for this current build but in the end I found that the triangle worked best this time. It varies!

I wouldn't worry about that. As long as you get a single narrow line on the fret it's in the ballpark. After all, the tuning of a guitar is never perfect, it's always a compromise. If you think about True Temperament Frets (the squiggly ones) they're way more off the straight line than just the width of a fret. I also believe that you wouldn't accept your work if the narrow line were significantly off-center of the fret. With narrow frets there's not much wiggle room anyway, with Jumbo frets you'd have to level them quite low to get the crown on one side or diagonal:

i appreciate the response biz.  it is true that if you look at true temp there is quite a bit of variance and you wouldn't get anywhere near that variance on a fret by screwing up with a triangle.  that said, if you had two consecutive frets that were off in opposing directions I wouldn't be surprised if it made intonnation a bit screwy.  esp if it was the 12th.  I just meant that it's probably something you have to be careful of whereas with a crown file it's a no brainer.

[Bizman62]

My experience with a crown file is that it's way too easy to get the top filed as well and ruin the leveling. Maybe I have the wrong file, I don't know. One is an American one-size-fits-all and the other is a Chinese mystery.

 

[mistermikev]

2 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

My experience with a crown file is that it's way too easy to get the top filed as well and ruin the leveling. Maybe I have the wrong file, I don't know. One is an American one-size-fits-all and the other is a Chinese mystery.

 

I think I'm going to have to try it at some point... if for no other reason than to widen my horizons.

[soapbarstrat]

Have yet to own a crowing file, because of the restrictions of common mismatch of size to fret ratio, or whatever.

I feel that if major recrowning is required, I prefer to replace the frets. I’ve been told that the further into the fret you go, the softer the metal gets. Or a good compromise is to not recrown to a half circle, but a larger flatter radius instead. This will spread the load of future string to fret contact. It can make the note sound a bit more slurred, but that’s actually preferable on many guitars. I heard Eric Johnson likes his Strat frets like that. Paul Reed Smith once said he likes flattish frets on his own personal  guitars.
 

 

[mistermikev]

13 minutes ago, soapbarstrat said:

Have yet to own a crowing file, because of the restrictions of common mismatch of size to fret ratio, or whatever.

I feel that if major recrowning is required, I prefer to replace the frets. I’ve been told that the further into the fret you go, the softer the metal gets. Or a good compromise is to not recrown to a half circle, but a larger flatter radius instead. This will spread the load of future string to fret contact. It can make the note sound a bit more slurred, but that’s actually preferable on many guitars. I heard Eric Johnson likes his Strat frets like that. Paul Reed Smith once said he likes flattish frets on his own personal  guitars.
 

 

right on.  it sounds like you are coming more from the perspective of replacing/re-working frets... as opposed to a new install - please correct if I'm wrong.  I have done some fretwork on my own older guitars... but actually have more experience installing new.  I get the sense that since one isn't necc sanding the fretboard back down flat on a repair/re-work... you would be much more likely to see bigger differences between each fret... (ie wider flat areas) whereas when flattening the fretboard on a new build - assuming you do it well... you shouldn't be taking off much at all... so I wonder if that plays into the choice a bit more?

 

[soapbarstrat]

On new frets with a freshly leveled board, There’s barely anything to recrown. 800 grit is my most coarse grit that I begin the leveling with (I’m using the 3M gold, which cuts like 600 grit of many other brands). The file is used very little and very carefully, or it will do damage. Quite different than how I treat old frets.

[mistermikev]

right on.  that's what I was alluding to... that with a new build you don't really remove much so it follows that it matters a lot less if you choose a crown file or triangle.  When you have to grind down to re-work frets... I would assume a triangle could be a lot less work than a crown file.

[Madmtnmotors]

On 5/12/2022 at 6:37 PM, mistermikev said:

right on.  that's what I was alluding to... that with a new build you don't really remove much so it follows that it matters a lot less if you choose a crown file or triangle.  When you have to grind down to re-work frets... I would assume a triangle could be a lot less work than a crown file.

This seems to be what I've learned in my limited guitar set up experience. I'm a sheet metal worker by trade and a shade tree mechanic by necessity so I have quite a bit of hands on with different files. The triangle file seems best when dealing with deep divots and the crowning file for finishing the shape. I make sure the pointed edge of the triangle file is blunted or rounded to help prevent damage to the fretboard and often with a stainless steel fret board protector. I use the sharpie method to keep the crown centered when using the triangular file and will do equal number of passes on each side of the fret, usually in sets of five. I'll start with a high angle for five passes and then roll the file over towards the fret for a shallower angle for five passes without going past center, repeating as necessary.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Madmtnmotors

[mistermikev]

4 hours ago, Madmtnmotors said:

This seems to be what I've learned in my limited guitar set up experience. I'm a sheet metal worker by trade and a shade tree mechanic by necessity so I have quite a bit of hands on with different files. The triangle file seems best when dealing with deep divots and the crowning file for finishing the shape. I make sure the pointed edge of the triangle file is blunted or rounded to help prevent damage to the fretboard and often with a stainless steel fret board protector. I use the sharpie method to keep the crown centered when using the triangular file and will do equal number of passes on each side of the fret, usually in sets of five. I'll start with a high angle for five passes and then roll the file over towards the fret for a shallower angle for five passes without going past center, repeating as necessary.

right on.  i guess there are quite a few triangle devotees in here... wouldn't have guessed.  thanks for the reply.