FuzzFace Posted July 5, 2022 Report Posted July 5, 2022 I have a couple guitars Im considering to put a Gotoh GE1996T double locking floating trem on, it requires me to insert its posts 74mm apart. Can anyone tell me the following and if most strat dual post trem systems are 74mm apart? A mahogany Ibanez SA260, problem being post holes are not 74mm apart. Given I have to route down some first, is there any kind of bog that would fill the old post holes and allow me to drill the correct 74mm apart and put the new posts in from Gotoh? Beautiful Ash body from G&L (Legacy Tribute), this is my preferred body, does anybody know what distance apart the dual fulcrum posts are? Ive done 2 strat conversions a fair while back and both went OK, I think you learn a little every time..... Quote
curtisa Posted July 5, 2022 Report Posted July 5, 2022 13 minutes ago, FuzzFace said: Can anyone tell me the following and if most strat dual post trem systems are 74mm apart? Usually not. Depends on the manufacturer. Most two post trems have the posts almost inline with the outermost strings, which makes them in the order of 52mm or thereabouts. The notable exceptions are Floyd Rose style trems where the posts are typically placed wider than the outermost strings. 16 minutes ago, FuzzFace said: is there any kind of bog that would fill the old post holes and allow me to drill the correct 74mm apart and put the new posts in from Gotoh? The normal procedure is to plug the old holes with timber and redrill. I wouldn't use bog or epoxy as they're too unpredictable to use as filler in structurally-critical applications like trem posts - they might dry too brittle or with soft centres. Don't forget that you may also have to position the Gotoh posts forward or backward from the original post holes to maintain proper bridge placement in relation to the guitar's scale length. 19 minutes ago, FuzzFace said: does anybody know what distance apart the dual fulcrum posts are? 2 7/8" is what Google suggests, or a whisker over 73mm. Quote
FuzzFace Posted July 5, 2022 Author Report Posted July 5, 2022 34 minutes ago, curtisa said: 1.The normal procedure is to plug the old holes with timber and redrill. I wouldn't use bog or epoxy as they're too unpredictable to use as filler in structurally-critical applications like trem posts - they might dry too brittle or with soft centres. 2. Don't forget that you may also have to position the Gotoh posts forward or backward from the original post holes to maintain proper bridge placement in relation to the guitar's scale length. 3. 2 7/8" is what Google suggests, or a whisker over 73mm. Awesome reply. 1. Yes I was planning to use dowel, should I also put a suger glue or wood glue mix in with the dowel, or just find a dowel slightly larger and hammer that in? That makes doing an SA260FM quite possible then if the posts for the new Gotoh will hold. 2. Is this as simple as getting my measure and measuring the length? 3. Bloody brilliant, where did you find this? I been scouring the net, but I dont use google often. 73.025mm. Damn thats close, 1mm is really nothing, I wonder if I try using their posts just to get a gauge, I could then go from there, Not sure if there is a way to borrow 1mm somehow...................... If I wasnt a tremolo addict Id say the dual fulcrum is a damn nice trem, they make good guitars. Quote
curtisa Posted July 5, 2022 Report Posted July 5, 2022 41 minutes ago, FuzzFace said: Yes I was planning to use dowel, should I also put a suger glue or wood glue mix in with the dowel, or just find a dowel slightly larger and hammer that in? If the new holes overlap the old ones you want to use wood plugs, not dowels. Dowels will have the grain running perpendicular to the grain in the body, which will be near impossible to drill accurately in to and will tend to crush more easily if you try to drive new posts in, which may result in loose or leaning trem posts. Normally you'd use a plug cutting bit and cut a wood plug that has the grain running in the same direction as the wood you're trying to fill. Plug cutters usually only come in a small range of sizes, so you may also have to drill out the old holes oversize to match the plug. If the new holes don't overlap the old ones you may be able to plug with dowels, but be aware of the added difficulty in hiding the endgrain dowels against the existing surrounding timber (if that's visually important to you). 41 minutes ago, FuzzFace said: Is this as simple as getting my measure and measuring the length? Kinda. You need to account for any gain or loss of bridge position relative to the point at which the posts pivot against the knife edges. That can usually only be determined empirically comparing your old bridge and the one you intend to replace it with. Typically you want the saddle breakpoints to sit in the same (ish) positions before and after replacement, and compensate the new post hole positions accordingly. 41 minutes ago, FuzzFace said: 73.025mm. Damn thats close, 1mm is really nothing, I wonder if I try using their posts just to get a gauge, I could then go from there, Not sure if there is a way to borrow 1mm Be aware that most Floyd-type bridges (and maybe the Gotoh one?) have one of the two knife edges shaped in a semicircle to prevent the bridge from sliding side-to-side and keep it aligned centrally on the body. A 74mm spacing bridge might fit on 73mm post centres, but the semicircular knife edge will pull the bridge across to one side by 0.5mm off centre. This will correspondingly misalign the strings across to one side of the neck by the same amount. Quote
FuzzFace Posted July 5, 2022 Author Report Posted July 5, 2022 17 minutes ago, curtisa said: If the new holes overlap the old ones you want to use wood plugs, not dowels. Dowels will have the grain running perpendicular to the grain in the body, which will be near impossible to drill accurately in to and will tend to crush more easily if you try to drive new posts in, which may result in loose or leaning trem posts. Normally you'd use a plug cutting bit and cut a wood plug that has the grain running in the same direction as the wood you're trying to fill. Plug cutters usually only come in a small range of sizes, so you may also have to drill out the old holes oversize to match the plug. correspondingly misalign the strings across to one side of the neck by the same amount. oh , this is sounding a lot harder than my last one which was just a route job. if I have to buy a tool to make plugs, the costs start to add up. will think this over., appreciate your help. Quote
curtisa Posted July 5, 2022 Report Posted July 5, 2022 Not necessarily. The first step is to plan what you can using whatever data you can find about the parts you want to use. Gotoh usually have decent dimension drawings of their products. I think G&L sell their parts to the public - they may be able to provide drawings and measurements if you ask nicely. Use that information to determine how practical it is for you to do the bridge swap first. Quote
FuzzFace Posted July 6, 2022 Author Report Posted July 6, 2022 (edited) 18 hours ago, curtisa said: Not necessarily. The first step is to plan what you can using whatever data you can find about the parts you want to use. Gotoh usually have decent dimension drawings of their products. I think G&L sell their parts to the public - they may be able to provide drawings and measurements if you ask nicely. Use that information to determine how practical it is for you to do the bridge swap first. That is great advice. I have the gotoh drawings (I just love CAD images haha), thats what Im basing the 74mm on. Gotoh dimensions PDF So Ive emailed one of the bosses and GnL. Im not too worried about how things look around the posts as the Trem completely covers them, plus I wont be leaving it unpainted under it, thats why I thought worst case dowel would be ok, but this against the grain thing has me wondering how I can resolve that or if I need too. How expensive is that tool to take some shavings ? o,5mm each side is next to negligible but I dont want to cut a guitar up and find out Im wrong. Plus I may still use the Ibanez SA. Both have neck that I like. I presume there is somewhere you can buy bodies pre routed for a double locking trem etc? But I looked at the price of just necks and you can buy whole guitars for what they want. Edited July 6, 2022 by FuzzFace Quote
FuzzFace Posted July 6, 2022 Author Report Posted July 6, 2022 (edited) Something like the mighty might bodies or an actual squier cont floyd rose replacement is about $150US I think. I dont even own a router haha, I was going to do the work with chisel and my dremel. Im not great financially at the moment to afford a router. I figure if this is something Im going to do properly, its not going to be a one off, as the costs for just one project might not add up? Although by the time I import the body, its close to what the entire GnL Legacy Tribute will cost me. Edited July 6, 2022 by FuzzFace Quote
curtisa Posted July 6, 2022 Report Posted July 6, 2022 1 hour ago, FuzzFace said: How expensive is that tool to take some shavings ? You mean a plug cutter? You can probably get a decent one for less than $15. Note that you'd also have to have access to a drill press to use one as they can't be used in a hand drill (this might be putting you off even more now ) 1 hour ago, FuzzFace said: I presume there is somewhere you can buy bodies pre routed for a double locking trem etc? But I looked at the price of just necks and you can buy whole guitars for what they want. The Stratosphere sell Strat-style bodies routed for double locking tremolos, but read the descriptions carefully as they may be routed for official Floyd Rose bridges rather than the Gotoh GE1996. The bridge placement will also be dictated by whatever matching neck is expected to be married to that particular body to maintain proper scale length which might limit your options a bit too. One-off guitar part purchases are generally more expensive than the equivalent complete guitar; it's just the nature of the beast and the economy of scale. But they do take the headache out of trying to absolutely everything yourself to achieve a customised solution when your budget is constrained or your access to the appropriate tools and skills is limited. Quote
FuzzFace Posted July 7, 2022 Author Report Posted July 7, 2022 20 hours ago, curtisa said: You mean a plug cutter? You can probably get a decent one for less than $15. Note that you'd also have to have access to a drill press to use one as they can't be used in a hand drill (this might be putting you off even more now ) Oh thats not so bad. My neighbour has a drill press and a router, I might be able to borrow his to start out. Is this something you do as a hobby? That is how Im starting to see this, rather than just adding a trem to my guitar, do most people on here do this often? So I found a squier FR HH active pickups, seller has already put EMGs in to to replace the Squier Actives. Is asking about 60% of the new price which I thought is pretty good given its only couple years old and has had a pickup upgrade and I should in theory (just checking) be able to drop a new Gotoh Trem in to replace the Floyd Rose special version, although if it works, what makes more sense is upgrading the saddles to graphtech, those nuts and Tusq nuts etc, just work, well for me anyway. Quote
Bizman62 Posted July 7, 2022 Report Posted July 7, 2022 2 hours ago, FuzzFace said: Is this something you do as a hobby? I suppose most of the forum members are hobbyists. There's some that have expanded their activity to professional building and some have even gained world wide attention with their innovations but the vast majority build just for themselves. Building bespoke guitars isn't a gold mine if you count the hours! If you earn money without daily personal contribution, you have a business. If you're self employed and your input is needed daily for the income, it's a job. If the income barely covers the materials and tools, it's a hobby. Or, should a luthier win big in a lottery he'll continue building instruments until he runs out of money... Quote
curtisa Posted July 7, 2022 Report Posted July 7, 2022 4 hours ago, FuzzFace said: I should in theory (just checking) be able to drop a new Gotoh Trem in to replace the Floyd Rose special version Your best bet is to check the dimension drawings of each and compare the sizes and shapes of each bridge. Floyd Rose publish the dimensions of their bridges on their website. Quote
FuzzFace Posted July 7, 2022 Author Report Posted July 7, 2022 2 hours ago, Bizman62 said: I suppose most of the forum members are hobbyists. There's some that have expanded their activity to professional building and some have even gained world wide attention with their innovations but the vast majority build just for themselves. Building bespoke guitars isn't a gold mine if you count the hours! If you earn money without daily personal contribution, you have a business. If you're self employed and your input is needed daily for the income, it's a job. If the income barely covers the materials and tools, it's a hobby. Or, should a luthier win big in a lottery he'll continue building instruments until he runs out of money... You can earn money from this? What a dream job even if it was minimum wage. I use to earn 5x the avg in my country as an IT branch manager, but the stress caused auto immunity, now my partner wants me to go back to that life, but I want to find some things doing what I enjoy, like fixing phone and computers, hands on stuff. I was just planning on doing this as a hobby Quote
FuzzFace Posted July 7, 2022 Author Report Posted July 7, 2022 56 minutes ago, curtisa said: Your best bet is to check the dimension drawings of each and compare the sizes and shapes of each bridge. Floyd Rose publish the dimensions of their bridges on their website. Still wating on the GnL for an official diagram, but we know the dimensions for the GOTOH double locking, 74mm. GnL as you said, Ive seen posted too says its 73.1mm post to post. Another option Im interested in is a cheap PRS SE Tremonti. Now the Tunomatic with Stop Tail, it is 73.5mm post to post, Im thinking thats getting close enough to work with if I went that route, Quote
Bizman62 Posted July 7, 2022 Report Posted July 7, 2022 2 hours ago, FuzzFace said: You can earn money from this? What a dream job even if it was minimum wage. You can. Getting the minimum wage can be tough, though. Better keep it as a hobby. How coincidental: I'm a self employed computer repair guy, making house calls only. There's plenty of people who can't carry their gear to a repair shop, not to mention that many issues are a combination of the Internet connection, the computer and the user. The best example of this is the lady who was sold a full monty service pack with a new laptop, doubling the price. Yet she had to call me: They hadn't connected the computer to her Wi-Fi... For me this is something between a job and a hobby. I make enough to pay my share of the household maintenance plus most of what we eat and the car and gas. Some heavier advertising might bring in more jobs and money but I like to be available within a day or two. Quote
FuzzFace Posted July 8, 2022 Author Report Posted July 8, 2022 17 hours ago, Bizman62 said: You can. Getting the minimum wage can be tough, though. Better keep it as a hobby. How coincidental: I'm a self employed computer repair guy, making house calls only. There's plenty of people who can't carry their gear to a repair shop, not to mention that many issues are a combination of the Internet connection, the computer and the user. The best example of this is the lady who was sold a full monty service pack with a new laptop, doubling the price. Yet she had to call me: They hadn't connected the computer to her Wi-Fi... For me this is something between a job and a hobby. I make enough to pay my share of the household maintenance plus most of what we eat and the car and gas. Some heavier advertising might bring in more jobs and money but I like to be available within a day or two. Somebody told me 25 years ago I should just work for myself helping people who do not understand what is going wrong with their computers. I worked my way up through IT both in IP engineering and Software engineering until I was no longer technical, money was good but the stress was too much. But yeah, Im fixing stuff for people all the time, like how you get demo software which is often bloatware, which can impact usability, all they need to do is uninstalll all the bloatware from factory, heck even though I use software for some stuff, windows provides everything now anyway. As for OSX, if people having issues with that software, I know they need to attend a computer course lol. But fixing internal iMacs involves a lot of of work. Its not hard, you just need the right tools, getting the screen off etc and replacing the foam means having the right tools. But this is a bit like Luthier or making/modding guitars, you probably build up tools as you need them. I found a Ryobi router for $60 USD, its not flash, but it just shows there is a way to start small. and the funniest thing, when we bought the house, the guy who owned it prior is a major Pacifica wood carver, awesome work. He left blocks of wood under the house I got no Idea what they are. BUT, he won a $4k wooden work shed and that came with the house, its sitting empty. It has brackets, even a cut out vice bench attached to the walls. Can working on gutars be destressing? Thanks Bruv. Quote
FuzzFace Posted July 8, 2022 Author Report Posted July 8, 2022 21 hours ago, curtisa said: Your best bet is to check the dimension drawings of each and compare the sizes and shapes of each bridge. Floyd Rose publish the dimensions of their bridges on their website. So GnL never got back to me, but I read somebody else had the same problem. I dont get it, they sell their bridges, why not just provide a diagram like everyone else. So sadly, the guitar FINALLY sold. A bit sad as I loved the blue stained ash body. HowEVER, the Ibanez is still on auction and finishes first thing tomorrow morning, that is the basswood flamed maple SA260FM. Currently it is $65 US lol, Im hoping if it sells for under $200 USD, because you have made me realise posts do not really matter, they can be replaced even if they overlap. This would make for an awesome gutar, more of a modern C neck, with a double locking trem, whoop, thats what you buy an Ibanez for, fun and exploration. On the other hand there is a PRS Standard, the guy only wants $300 USD for it, these are the original SE's and they were not cheap. But they used proprietary bridge not a tonepros but Im trying to find out the posts. I dont love (or hate) the colour, Im wondering if Mahogany stained looks ok? A PRS with a Gotoh double locking would also be very unique. You can get Floyd Rose ones, but they start at $1000usd. I think if Im going to do this, I will want to have my main guitar and have a project guitar on the side, nothing worse than rushing to fix something. In saying that I have my acoustic which I play a lot, but want to upgrade it as its a budget brand the Mrs had and its time for something that frets out nicely etc. I think the pocket needs a re shim, its not worth the hassle, it frets out on the 13th E string. Quote
FuzzFace Posted July 8, 2022 Author Report Posted July 8, 2022 (edited) I forgot to ask, is there anywhere that does budget bodies? I was looking at a video on tone woods and the prices on the bodies seemed awfully cheap !!!! The video was from New Perspectives Music - Guitar, Reclaimed, Bass Guitar But the prices on the bodies were far far less than retail. Who sells the cheapest bodies? Edited July 8, 2022 by FuzzFace Quote
FuzzFace Posted July 9, 2022 Author Report Posted July 9, 2022 (edited) DOH ! darn alarm, this time I thought I hit snooze but must have hit dismiss. Th sa260fm went for $140usd. ugggh. It wasnt as new condition, just some paint chips around the bottom button id say to being placed on it rather than a stand indefinitely. I have read one thread though say the posts are 74.1mm, I dont believe it as one of the more famous youtubers said they do not fit like for like. So Im trying to get some info on the t102 Ibanez trem and its pole distancing. Would be too funny if all this time they are the same, but I doubt it. Either way im not too worried now, what Im planning is to buy another guitar I really like, and then just wait for a semi decent strat/super strat to start this hobby off with. I have another sa260fm, he wants $185 USD. Id still be interested in a cheap body to mount the double locking gotoh and using one of the nicer flamed maple necks with stainless steel fretwire etc. So on to tools, Thommans offer basic Luthier tool packs, more for setting up guitars etc, is there a link on here what kind of tools I need for the wood working side of things? I presume a router, a drill press, some chisels, have a semi decent sander already. Edited July 9, 2022 by FuzzFace Quote
Bizman62 Posted July 10, 2022 Report Posted July 10, 2022 For hobby use, and I mean something like a full built guitar a year or the equivalent of partial builds, you don't need too expensive stuff. My €40 router (similar to what Lidl sold!) features 6 and 8 mm collets and they had a 1/4" collet available for a mere fiver. That makes it versatile enough and it has also proved to be strong enough. Narex make good chisels and they have sets of 4 for around €50 depending on the width. From 6 to 25 mm should do, or even just those two plus a couple of gouges. A tabletop drill press may cost anything starting from €100 to thousands but the cheaper ones usually are good enough as long as the opening is deep enough. Luthiery usually doesn't require tools meant for 24/7 usage for the thickest blocks of the hardest woods. There's lists of "essential" tools all over the Internet and they all seem to grow in length and price when the list maker remembers yet another tool that just makes life sooo much easier. Think of the tasks you need to do and try to figure out all of the ways how you could to each task. Do you need tons of files? Or just glue some sandpaper on a stick? A long ruler is nice, or a laser but a slat or string can be used to align the centre line as well. Quote
FuzzFace Posted July 12, 2022 Author Report Posted July 12, 2022 On 7/11/2022 at 6:31 AM, Bizman62 said: . Do you need tons of files? Yep, I get your point. The other thing is, there are so many companies with pre routed cheap bodes out there. I was going to make a post about this, but if anybody knows, who provides the absolute cheapest already routed bodies? I do love Ash.. Quote
Bizman62 Posted July 12, 2022 Report Posted July 12, 2022 1 hour ago, FuzzFace said: the absolute cheapest already routed bodies If you're going for cheapest you'd better choose something that has no holes predrilled! Especially not for bridges or pickguards. The neck and pickup cavities may also be off, hopefully in line with each other though. Also double check that the scale length matches your neck, otherwise you might end up having the bridge in the prerouted pickup cavity! A length of Ash for a three piece body shouldn't cost too much, for a two piece a bit more. Carving the body is easy, body templates for routing are easy to make. And a sub-50 router with a set of bits should easily last for a dozen of guitars. Or, you can drill the corners of the cavities and use a chisel. Someone here does that and his cavities are among the neatest. And as you can just draw the outlines, saw the shape and file the roundover you don't necessarily need a router at all! Quote
FuzzFace Posted July 17, 2022 Author Report Posted July 17, 2022 On 7/12/2022 at 11:01 PM, Bizman62 said: Or, you can drill the corners of the cavities and use a chisel. I saw someone who did their floyd rose recess by drill and chisel, it came out very neat, they just put dowel in the old post and redrilled new post holes as nobody looks under your tremolo and it was sanded then pained so couldnt see anyway. Who is the cheapest place to buy bodies and necks predone? That could be a good start for me, then I can get exactly what I want, provided they dont charge the same as a premade quality guitar haha. Quote
FuzzFace Posted July 18, 2022 Author Report Posted July 18, 2022 I was looking around at cheap Routers and Drill Presses today. I had no idea there were Drill Presses that you can attach your power drill into and you can do your holes perfectly straight, for $50 !!!. I know, not as good as a $500 proper drill press table, but when you are starting out thats not bad. There are cheaper ways but if your body is arched it makes getting level too hard with "drill guides" etc. Although if the body is too wide for your drill press, a levelled drill guide on supporrted level rails or similar above the body might be the only way o get the hole done? As for routers, I see them for $60-70 with bits at the hardware store, so I imagine you could get a semi decent one for $50 2nd hand. I think sawing bodies might be a bit passed my ability and I definitely cant afford a quality jig saw and then Id need one of those hardcore bench belt sanders? Quote
curtisa Posted July 18, 2022 Report Posted July 18, 2022 On 7/17/2022 at 1:52 PM, FuzzFace said: Who is the cheapest place to buy bodies and necks predone? What about if you buy a kit guitar and modify it to your requirements? Some of those can be quite reasonably priced. There's also plenty of Youtube vids detailing how to take a cheap kit guitar and pimp it up. Quote
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