Hottest Single Coil Possible?!

[spindlebox]

Hello all.  I am wondering, (and I've done some Googling with little luck), if anyone knows if getting a 10K single coil pickup is even possible?  I have a customer that wants one, and I would need to get at least 10K winds on a bobbin to do it - according to this calculator (http://www.jdguitarworks.com/coil/coil.html)

I have had trouble - with the current poles I have, even getting 7500.  Now, I guess I could get the tallest poles available (.780) and try that?  See, the 7500 got me a reading of 6400 and he wants WAY more than that!  I'm still kind of new at  this - just wondering if there's anything I can do to "juice it up!"

Thanks!!!!

[spindlebox]

OK I have done a little bit more research and apparently I can use a smaller gauge wire to make it happen.

 

I'm gonna post again again in here so I can get a little bit more eyes on it, but I'm looking for a source for a wire that is above 44 AWG. I would love to get 50.  I can't find anything above 44 at the moment.  Sources?

[ADFinlayson]

I forget his name but there was a guy that came up to me stand at the london show a couple of weeks ago, boasting of a 38k humbucker so it must be possible with fine wire. You could try experimenting with stronger magnets though, I asked my pickup maker to redo a pickup for me recently. He didn't rewind it but just put a stronger magnet of the same type in and the pickup was way hotter.

[curtisa]

2 hours ago, spindlebox said:

I would need to get at least 10K winds on a bobbin to do it

As mentioned in your other thread, a higher number of turns with finer wire will get you there (ignoring the practicalities of working with such fine wire). But higher resistance has counter-effects on the sound. Resistance isn't the be-all measurement of a pickup's output.

Is a single-sized mini humbucker off the cards for your customer (eg, Hotrails)?

A hot P90 can be in the low-10k's for resistance, but by all accounts they're quite dark sounding.

Using your calculator I can get 44AWG to fit in a 0.436" tall bobbin targeting 10K using their 'Strat 1967' menu option. Takes nearly 9000 turns to get there though. Probably something for a mechanical winder only.

[spindlebox]

10 hours ago, curtisa said:

As mentioned in your other thread, a higher number of turns with finer wire will get you there (ignoring the practicalities of working with such fine wire). But higher resistance has counter-effects on the sound. Resistance isn't the be-all measurement of a pickup's output.

Is a single-sized mini humbucker off the cards for your customer (eg, Hotrails)?

A hot P90 can be in the low-10k's for resistance, but by all accounts they're quite dark sounding.

Using your calculator I can get 44AWG to fit in a 0.436" tall bobbin targeting 10K using their 'Strat 1967' menu option. Takes nearly 9000 turns to get there though. Probably something for a mechanical winder only.

He just asked me to make him a really hot ~10K pickup and I like a challenge.  Everything I do that I haven't done before is a learning experience.  No, he wants a single coil.  Yeah, looks like I need to get some finer wire.  If you'll notice, that calculator goes up to 55!  Bare knuckle pickups have their "SINNER", line that boast 15-20K.  They must be using wire like that.

[curtisa]

On 11/15/2022 at 11:06 PM, spindlebox said:

If you'll notice, that calculator goes up to 55! 

What I meant with my initial suggestion about using the calculator...:

On 11/15/2022 at 12:43 PM, curtisa said:

Using your calculator I can get 44AWG to fit in a 0.436" tall bobbin targeting 10K using their 'Strat 1967' menu option.

...was that going for finer wire to get a higher resistance pickup does not mean the pickup will be hotter.

If you use the 'Strat 1967' option in the calculator aiming for a 10k pickup using 44AWG (easy to get) the pickup is entirely buildable using that sized bobbin. If you use 50AWG you can also build the pickup on the same bobbin, but because the cross-sectional area of the wire is much smaller the resistance per unit length is about 4 times higher than 44AWG. So if you aim for 10k resistance it'll just take fewer turns to get there. Less turns will yield a lower output pickup, so much less that the calculator is suggesting that the 50AWG version of the 10K pickup has about a third of the number of turns of the stock 'Strat 1967' pickup option with 42AWG, and will therefore have a third of the output.

 

On 11/15/2022 at 11:06 PM, spindlebox said:

Bare knuckle pickups have their "SINNER", line that boast 15-20K.  They must be using wire like that.

They might be using finer wire than AWG44, but the calculator also indicates that it's possible to build a 20k single coil using 44AWG on a 0.5" tall bobbin using a mechanical winder and packing the turns in tightly. And the number of turns are also high (17000+) which will give a higher output than the stock single coil option.

[spindlebox]

1 minute ago, curtisa said:

What I meant with my initial suggestion about using the calculator...:

...was that going for finer wire to get a higher resistance pickup does not mean the pickup will be hotter.

If you use the 'Strat 1967' in the calculator aiming for a 10k pickup using 44AWG (easy to get) the pickup is entirely buildable using that sized bobbin. If you use 50AWG you can also build the pickup on the same bobbin, but because the cross-sectional area of the wire is much smaller the resistance per unit length is about 4 times higher than 44AWG. So if you aim for 10k resistance it'll just take fewer turns to get there. Less turns will yield a lower output pickup, so much less that the calculator is suggesting that the 50AWG version of the 10K pickup has about a third of the number of turns of the stock 'Strat 1967' pickup option with 42AWG, and will therefore have a third of the output.

 

They might be using finer wire than AWG44, but the calculator also indicates that it's possible to build a 20k single coil using 44AWG on a 0.5" tall bobbin using a mechanical winder and packing the turns in tightly. And the number of turns are also high (17000+) which will give a higher output than the stock single coil option.

 Yeah but I wonder if that's something somebody could do with  A hand built scatterwound. I doubt it.

I just find all of this interesting. It's fun to experiment.

[curtisa]

Making the bobbin bigger makes it possible. If you can make the bobbin 0.5" tall the calculator suggests it can be done with a loose scatter wind:

[spindlebox]

You know what is the difference between the height and the flange? I can understand the other measurements but I don't know what the flange is.

[curtisa]

I think it's meant to be the width of the bobbin flatwork.

[spindlebox]

Maybe it's the base of the flatwork.

[curtisa]

No, too thick. It's also not a useful specification for the coil itself. The calculator needs to know what the maximum dimensions of the coil window you have to work with to give a meaningful result. The thickness of the flatwork is irrelevant (other than giving you an idea of how physically big the completed pickup will be).

[spindlebox]

Understood, but I just wish I knew what "FLANGE" was.  I sent a message to the creator of this calculator a couple days ago and haven't heard back.

[curtisa]

Pretty sure it's the width of the bobbin. Can't be anything else.

The calc specifies length, height, flange and width. The names are a bit weird, but given the default sizes shown I take 'width' to be the innermost width of the bobbin where it wraps around the poles and 'flange' to be the outermost width of the bobbin where it cannot exceed because the pickup case has to slide over the completed coil. The four dimensions quoted are the minimum required when specifying the dimensions of any coil.

[spindlebox]

That makes sense.

[Bizman62]

I just studied the Gretsch Filtertron pickups and learned some interesting details compared to Gibson Humbuckers. Yes, they're both dual-coil humbuckers but the basics apply to single coils as well. What I learned is that the Gibby HB is hotter both by numbers and ears but the difference in output volume isn't as big as the numbers might suggest. One reason for that is the bigger magnets in Filtertrons. The taller bobbins may also have some effect, but if memory serves me that's more tone related.

Oh well, isn't that what @ADFinlayson just said?

[spindlebox]

On 11/16/2022 at 4:20 PM, curtisa said:

Pretty sure it's the width of the bobbin. Can't be anything else.

The calc specifies length, height, flange and width. The names are a bit weird, but given the default sizes shown I take 'width' to be the innermost width of the bobbin where it wraps around the poles and 'flange' to be the outermost width of the bobbin where it cannot exceed because the pickup case has to slide over the completed coil. The four dimensions quoted are the minimum required when specifying the dimensions of any coil.

I know for a fact what these measurements are now:

LENGTH = distance between outside of high E and low E poles, placed in the flatwork (horizontally)

WIDTH = thickness of the poles themselves (it's one of the choices when purchasing)

HEIGHT = inside measurement of bottom and top flatwork - clearance for wire

FLANGE = width of top bobbin flatwork (as you stated)

I'm going to give this a go, I was waiting for some longer pole pieces so I could get a .5" height.

[spindlebox]

Well this is a little frustrating. As you can see by the photos I did everything I was supposed to do and actually measured my bobbin with calipers and entered the correct dimensions. I even went slightly above "Tight scatter" which is kind of what I figured I was doing, I may have to go to loose machine?

It looks like I can almost fit another 1500 winds on there however.  I may just do that!!  Not sure how this guy developed that chart, but my experience at this point is shaky with it.

Edited November 22, 2022 by spindlebox
Typos

[spindlebox]

So this is a thing, when I 1st took that measurement I hadn't magnetized the pick up yet. So I took the reading and figured it was good. Well I magnetized it and then I waxed potted it and then then decided to take another measurement for giggles.  So what was 9.6 so I think this estimator is OK. Maybe a little off but not as bad as I was thinking.

Apparently a magnetic field can affect the resistance and I did not know that.

[Alex M.]

On 11/23/2022 at 3:43 AM, spindlebox said:

So this is a thing, when I 1st took that measurement I hadn't magnetized the pick up yet. So I took the reading and figured it was good. Well I magnetized it and then I waxed potted it and then then decided to take another measurement for giggles.  So what was 9.6 so I think this estimator is OK. Maybe a little off but not as bad as I was thinking.Apparently a magnetic field can affect the resistance and I did not know that.

This is not a magnetic field, most likely it is the temperature difference during measurements.
Take the guitar out in the cold - it will show a very different resistance.

And note that — it is not the resistance that matters for output, but the number of turns.
The resistance only gives an experienced winder a hint of the number of turns, but for accuracy, you also need to know the thickness of the wire.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Alex M.

[Guitar_MD]

Wire in difficult to find gauges can be bought from here:

https://www.ultrafinecopperwire.com/

You can fill out a contact form here:

https://www.ultrafinecopperwire.com/contactus.html

I've ordered 45, 46, and 48AWG from them. Single build poly nylon.

With 46AWG, I've been able to fit 18,000 turns of wire onto a bobbin with .500" of winding space. This results in roughly 33k DCR, and 11.4 Henries inductance, with a resonant frequency of around 2.4dB @ 1.6kHz.

Taller bobbins with .781" mags will allow for even more wire. 48AWG is extremely thin and difficult to work with. I've never tried 50AWG. 48 seems like the thinnest I'd go although with my setup I think I could do 50AWG. The utility for extremely thin wire is better suited for small winding spaces, Bill Lawrence Micro Coil style. Like 1/8" or even less winding space. 48AWG works very well for that and 50AWG may work even better. With extra short coils however the capacitance drops to ridiculously low levels and the pickups can be quite odd sounding. Like almost too high fidelity.

Anyway, the most I've personally gone is about 18,500 turns on a Strat style pickup. That was on a .570" coil height with 44AWG, .781" mags. Now if I used 46AWG I would have been able to fit a lot more on there.

But there is a point of diminishing returns. Once you get into the sub 2kHz resonant frequency range, pickups get very dark sounding. This can be a good thing. But I will say that at 1.6kHz with 18,000 turns of wire, I would not want to go any more than that. It's already very dark sounding and going beyond that would get too muddy for me.

That being said, the resonant frequency was nearly identical on the .781" mag pickup I did with 18,500 turns of 44AWG, and the .719" mag pickup with 18,000 turns of 46AWG. The capacitance of both coils was also almost identical, the first being 125pf and the second being 127pf. The taller coil however, with the .781 mags, had about 1 Henry *less* inductance than the shorter coil with 46AWG.

However, the resonant curve -- i.e., the entire bode plot -- the pickup with the lower inductance, the taller coil with 44AWG -- had more retention of high end frequencies / less dropoff of high end frequencies (however you want to word it) compared to the shorter 46AWG coil with almost the same number of turns. So their resonant frequency is just about identical. But the taller coil actually had a slightly higher boost in the lower frequencies and more retention of high end frequencies compared to the shorter coil.

For further reference, I've made another pickup with .250" (1/4") winding space, using 16,000 turns of 48AWG. That's how fine that wire is. Now the funny thing is the resonant frequency ended up at 0.9dB @ 1.4kHz. But it's much brighter sounding than the previous pickups I mentioned.

Reason being, while it has a low resonant frequency, the dropoff of the high end is *far less* than the other pickups, probably owing to the super low capacitance: 60pF total, after wax potting. 10.0 H inductance, 43.4k DCR. That was using .471" tall A5 rod mags.

So resonant frequency isn't everything. You have to look at the 'resonance curve' -- how fast the high end frequencies drop off, and how much, for example.

This is all represented in dBV @ Hz. The decibel voltage at a particular frequency. On my bode plotter I chart pickups in increments of 100Hz up through 10kHz. So at each 100Hz increment you get a decibel voltage. That tells you how much that particular frequency is being amplified by the coil.

I enter everything into a spreadsheet. I made a video detailing my process for testing pickups. I'll provide a link below. Hopefully this helps.

So to answer your question: for a pickup with .781" mags and fine wire, you could make an insanely overwound pickup in a Strat or Tele or similar style. The highest I've gone has been 18,500 turns on such a coil. The only reason I haven't gone further is because I don't think it would sound good. Though with extra thin wire like 48AWG or 50AWG it's possible you could get a low enough capacitance that you might actually get a usable tone with an even higher turn count and on a smaller bobbin. The most I've gone with 48AWG was that 1/4" coil with 16,000 turns. It was...interesting. I tested it out and decided I didn't like it but I didn't give it a chance by running it through multiple different setups. What you're running the pickups into is as important as the pickups themselves. Certain tube amps and certain plugins and FX might work better with different pickups. I won't get into talking about low impedance pickups by CyFi research has their "Nu Module" pickups, at least that's what I think they're called. Very interesting stuff.

Anyway, here's my video detailing my testing process. I strongly recommend getting a similar setup as trying to evaluate new pickup designs *without* such a setup can be like fumbling around in the dark. That's a bit of an exaggeration as all you need is to know the build 'recipe,' be able to replicate it, and you're good to go. If it sounds good, it sounds good. But it does help to run tests so you have a deeper understanding of what you're looking at and what variables are affecting what when it comes to building and winding pickup bobbins.