Jester700 Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 Wow!!!! Look at what I started! I am going to probably build 2 identical bodies & try one with the direct connection & one without And for what it is worth...I apreciate the feedback from those that have actully tried it & goten results. That's what the forum is all about! For those who offer theory without practice...thanks for the input, but I will consider the advice of those who actually did it! Dave K For the record, I HAVE guitars that are similar but different mounting setups, and I HAVE changed the mounting in guitars (including the plastic to metal ring change). And I have not noticed a difference in any of them. The reason I'm being so vocal is that I've been in similar discussions before concerning stereo gear, and the common assumption is that the guy who can't hear the difference has lesser hearing acuity. I'm pointing out that it has been *proven* in the past that some people who have heard an obvious difference have been shown to be wrong about an audible difference existing. I'm not claiming that that *is* what's happening here; it could be that I'm nearly deaf or maybe my guitar/pickup combinations just don't show the effect. I am just pointing out that there are other possibilities so that people can better make up their own minds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted February 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 ummm.......o.k. All I aksed was if anyone heard a diference. I think some of us are taking things a little too seriously! I think I'll just use a Motherbucker pickup & a Washburn "Wonderbar" trem & call it a day. DaveK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank falbo Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 This is kind of what I meant when I said I've seen this debate get nasty. That's part of the reason I won't commit to a position. But I realized that my posts were theory related, so I'll clarify that I have switched around mounting methods on several guitars. Even in the past when clients wanted to add rings to a guitar just for looks. So far, I can't say there's a difference. And believe me, guys, I'm trying really hard to see a difference. I've written articles on how everything makes a difference. String trees, headstock angle, trem block material, break angle at the saddle, etc. I am "pro-nuance!" For right now I still can't see this one. But I also am a firm believer in "if it works, do it." Eric Johnson is a nut but if batteries and cover plates and waving some magic wand over his amp makes him think it sounds better, than he should do it. I fully support Wes hanging his pickups because he says it's better. In that case he's right, even if some of us think he's not right. The fact is only an instant test that's recorded will ever solve this debate, and I don't think any of us care that much. But its fun to stretch the mind with these posts. I'll let you know if I ever build a guitar with instantly removable shims, or retractable pickup cavity bases. Until then.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester700 Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 ummm.......o.k. All I aksed was if anyone heard a diference. I think some of us are taking things a little too seriously! I think I'll just use a Motherbucker pickup & a Washburn "Wonderbar" trem & call it a day. DaveK Yeah, it's true. Less caffeine for me. That is one of my buttons, probably due to the many conversations I mentioned. But really, this kind of thinking is necessary IMO, because sometimes there's more going on than we sometimes recognize. Be well, and again, no offense meant to anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPL Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 Sorry if this was covered in some of the posts but I'm just too damned lazy to read through all of the long posts. The only thing that I have against direct mounted pups is that I spend a lot of time adjusting pickup height before I find that perfect "sweet spot". To my ears there is a much bigger difference in sound due to height rather than mounting method. Anyway that's how it works for me. The "right way" is different for everyone and in the end everyone still seems to come up with a great sounding guitar. Guitarists can be the pickiest SOB's when it comes to tone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 I'm pointing out that it has been *proven* in the past that some people who have heard an obvious difference have been shown to be wrong about an audible difference existing. where is the proof... saying"it has been proven" is not valid without actual proof. if "auditory memory" is so poor,even amongst musicians who hear for a living,then how come some dick can change one knob just a little on your amp or eq and not only do you notice it,you go crazy trying to find the knob they touched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester700 Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 I'm pointing out that it has been *proven* in the past that some people who have heard an obvious difference have been shown to be wrong about an audible difference existing. where is the proof... saying"it has been proven" is not valid without actual proof. if "auditory memory" is so poor,even amongst musicians who hear for a living,then how come some dick can change one knob just a little on your amp or eq and not only do you notice it,you go crazy trying to find the knob they touched. Several David Clark authored tests in Stereo Review articles in the 80's, at the least. I can dig for stuff on the net if you want. But it's accepted policy in listening tests to use ABX setups for the 2 reasons I'm talking about - auditory memory and mental coloration (listener bias). Tone knob switching *can* be a more obvious thing. Or not. And I'm not saying slight changes aren't perceptible; only that they're not necessary reliable. Another side of this is the scene where the sound you get doesn't turn you on like it did the previous day, even when you KNOW nobody touched the amp. Mental coloration. Or am I the only person that ever happened to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester700 Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 I started a new thread, because I hijacked this one royally. Didn't mean to, but... http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.ph...t=ST&f=2&t=5606 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 Another side of this is the scene where the sound you get doesn't turn you on like it did the previous day, even when you KNOW nobody touched the amp. Mental coloration. Or am I the only person that ever happened to? yeah i have had that happen before...i believe it to be due to humidity and the effect of it on the speakers...no proof of that it just seems that way.here in central texas the humidity varies alot and i find sound is better on a dry and warm day.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester700 Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 Another side of this is the scene where the sound you get doesn't turn you on like it did the previous day, even when you KNOW nobody touched the amp. Mental coloration. Or am I the only person that ever happened to? yeah i have had that happen before...i believe it to be due to humidity and the effect of it on the speakers...no proof of that it just seems that way.here in central texas the humidity varies alot and i find sound is better on a dry and warm day.. Your explanation could well be true. It's another one of those durn near impossible to figure out things that you just have to take a best guess at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snork Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 getting back on topic. i think the idea makes sense because you have nothing to get between the neck and the pickup. thats a cool idea and all but there could be problems. noone besides ed roman has actually done this, and all we have is his wishy washy not very credible word to go by. so until someone more experienced executes this properly and makes a guitar that is about the same and then posts clips of the 2 guitars playing on the same setting i think we should just give it a rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarMaestro Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 I can only confirm that a valid test can only be made by using the same guitar, an unbiased test person and no big interval in time between listening to the two mounting methods. Everything else cannot be considered a test. I simply don't believe you Wes. I have very good ears, but bias, mood, etc. play a much to big part in hearing to take your test for a fact. If you direct mounted your PU's after not liking their sound as they were ring mounted you were already expecting to improve the sound. You plugged the guitar in, expecting it'll sound better and that alone can make you think that it sounds better. There are days were I switch out my amp in the evening beeing happy about how great it sounds. The next day I switch it on and think the sound is mediocre. The difference is that I was in a great playing mood the day before and therefore everything sounded better to me. The next day I expected the amp to sound great and hear much more critical. I don't want to attack you or say that you are a liar, but I certainly would not take your expirience for a proof. I often switched PU's, amps, etc. and simply found out that hearing is influenced by mood and expectation very much. To make valid tests is very difficult though....but you should be a little more critical about your hearing ability, as I simply doubt that you can filter out all mood changes, expectations, etc. in your hearing. Why do you think even the most famous people for mixing records hear classical music during their work and reset the pressure of their ears in order to hear more objective? Because it is damn close to impossible to hear that accurate and come to objective conclusions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 oh sure i am just some big dumbass that doesn't know *** is going on. what a joke....i guess nothing matters a bit in tone to your "good" ears so i guess we can just start making all guitars out of plywood with cardboard tops and anytime someone says they don't like the tone then they are biased. but anyway i am not here to give my experiences to people like you who think they know all...i am here to help people who ask questions and expect answers based in experience,not some cockeyed theory man you are some kind of arrogant you want a "valid" test?then do it yourself because i have already done mine...which is one hell of a lot more than you have done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarMaestro Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 oh sure i am just some big dumbass that doesn't know *** is going on. I never said that and you got my completely wrong. I never wanted to attack you. And I never said I know it better. I just said that I don't believe in these kind of comparisons because of several reasons i wrote above. You ignored all my arguments and simply attacked me. I don't doubt that you have a vast knowledge about guitars and I always took your opinions very serious. You are one of the people on this board who's opinion I really respect. But if I post why I don't believe in these kind of comparisons you should at least stay on topic and answer my arguments instead of attacking me and posting ridiculous statements in order to make me look stupid. You admitted yourself that your amps sound different on different days. Why are you so sure that your hearing is that unfailable and objective? Why do you think good mixers/producers work the way they do? Why do you think that there is alot of sience involved in developing good hearing tests? Because all the world beside you is stupid? P.s.: Nobody is personally attacking you ore your knowledge. Jester700 came up with very valid reasons as well. If you think the critics like me and Jester700 are wrong then please take up our arguments and tell us why in a objective manner instead of flaming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 i posted my research...which is exactly why i built my vee the way i did...to answer exactly this question...and you said you do not believe me...that is extremely unkind and sounds like you have no wish to learn,only to argue what exactly do you expect with an insulting post like you made? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 I simply don't believe you Wes.. this is not meant to offend?maybe where you are from but where i am from those are fighting words Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarMaestro Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 okay wes....that sentence really sounds offending. I admit it. Sorry for that. I stand behind the rest of my posts though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 okay wes....that sentence really sounds offending. I admit it. Sorry for that. I stand behind the rest of my posts though. good enough....i don't mind the difference of opinion but anyway differences such as direct mounting versus rings always show up more under high gain situations anyway.i am not sure i would hear it in a different application,but with what i play it is very noticeable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarMaestro Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 good enough....i don't mind the difference of opinion but anyway I don't have a different opinion. I prefer direct mounted PU's as well. I just think that to really find out the exact difference between direct mounted and rig mounted PU's one would have to record the same guitar with both mounting techniques and record them with the same amp settings or something like that. A simple hearing check like you did it might be a method that works if the difference is bigger but for finding out about subtle differences more objective tests are needed. That said I never wanted to question your opinion or to attack you. Sorry for that and peace bro.... CU, MK! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AlexVDL Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 oh man what a @#!*$& (this discussion in general) If a couple of people say they actually hear the difference... why the hell would you go further discussing the theoretical crap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 I don't have a different opinion. I prefer direct mounted PU's as well. actually i prefer the rings....reread my posts...i direct mounted at first and then changed it to rings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarMaestro Posted February 22, 2004 Report Share Posted February 22, 2004 If a couple of people say they actually hear the difference... why the hell would you go further discussing the theoretical crap Because there are alot of people talking about big tonal differences in the whole field of sound be it mixing, hifi or guitars and would not be able to identify the difference in a test where they don't know if they are hearing A) or . There are many factors making objective hearing very difficult like mood, prejudice, knowledge and bias. Direct or ring mounting PU's will yield a subtle difference at best, so one should rather be critical if people talk about big differences here. I know Wes and you very well from these forums and respect your opinions. I think you both are correct and don't doubt that you expirienced a difference. I just want to stress that any simple hearing tests should be taken with a grain of salt. That's all.... actually i prefer the rings....reread my posts...i direct mounted at first and then changed it to rings. Yep....I mixed it up somehow.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted February 23, 2004 Report Share Posted February 23, 2004 actually i prefer the rings....reread my posts...i direct mounted at first and then changed it to rings. Yep....I mixed it up somehow.... understandable with all the huge posts since then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Litchfield Custom Gutars Posted February 23, 2004 Report Share Posted February 23, 2004 Didnt read the whole topic. I say try direct mounting like Wes did. If it sucks, change it. And they make mounting rings for Single coils now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikbojerik Posted February 23, 2004 Report Share Posted February 23, 2004 Hollowbodies sound the way they do because the soundboard vibrates; so does a solidbody, just less. Does the pickup know the difference? Depends... You can't pick/strum in the same place the same way twice, exactly...(try subtracting one audio file from the other...) Amps always sound better after they've been on for an hour (compared to just starting one up fresh...) Anecodal? Who cares? Just fuss with it 'till it makes you happy. Then you're done. That's the left-brain way of doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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