Guitarfrenzy Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 Your exactly right KrazyD.. I have used the radius block method of gluing some frets in. You just run some CA glue in the slot then you can place the fret by tapping in both edges with a fretting hammer, then put the right size radius block on over the fret and slowly clamp it down and let it dry. Just make sure you have the fretboard either paste waxed good or use good tape so it doesn't mess up the fretboard. I've even seen some people use Titebond glue to hold the frets in. Also, if your using any glue at all to hold the frets in, you'll need to use Naptha (Lighter Fluid) to clean the fret wire off, you'd be suprised how much stuff you'll get off of them. Grime that will tend to make the glue not hold the frets in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 Derek, are you pressing or hammering the frets in, and they just refuse to seat properly?? Always clean the wire thoroughly with napha, paint thinners, whatever... Bevel the fret slot slightly, which allows for the small curvature on the fretwire in the tang to crown join area, and aids in easier removal later on (fretboard has less tendancy to spilt upwards). I place some thin CA glue in a cardboard dish (bend the sides a bit, enough to cover a dime), and a piece of paper is dipped into the glue, then into the fret slot. make sure you get it on both surfaces, you might need two applications. I do one slot at a time, and press the fret in, then hold it down with pressure for about 10-15 seconds. When inserting, i place the fret (with is slightly over radiused) into the slot, tap each end with a hammer, and use the exact radius caul to press them in. Once the entire fretboard is done, i re-hit the ends with a hammer, and trim the frets. If a fret needs to be removed, remove it and start again. Its really no big deal. If you do remove a fret, turn it around and re-insert it (or move it along a mm), so the barbs on the tang are biting into fresh uncompressed wood. Even with my cauls and 1/2 tonne press i was getting a little pop up, especially in the middle of the fret (eg, not the ends). I dont have that problem any longer. I use stewmac pre-slotted board (ebony and rosewood primarily) with stewmac wire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 i found it useful to use a syringe that i had left over from the vet to put the glue in the slots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krazyderek Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 momsy braught home a couple of No27 siringes (the needle is about as thick as a human hair) so it's great for getting in REALLY small places. @ Rhoadsi'm pressing with a 1/2 ton press aswell, there's just always one or 2 stuburn frets around 8-12 i use paint thinner to clean the wire, same difference though maybe i'll market it as a feature "Dreamland Guitars, the only guitar with the super fret right in the middle of the neck" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balooka Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 hi since there are smart ppl here that know what they are talking about I wonder if anyone can direct me to a tutorial about leveling and crowning frets. The tutorial on projectguitar.com has an invalid link. t.i.a. JP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarfrenzy Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 maybe i'll market it as a feature "Dreamland Guitars, the only guitar with the super fret right in the middle of the neck" Heck that's what Ed Roman would do.. lol But he'd go into explaining why that method was so much better than other guitar manufactures.. To really pull it off you'd have to say something like, "Higher frets in the middle of the fretboard helps the overall tonality of the guitar" or something.. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarfrenzy Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 hi since there are smart ppl here that know what they are talking about I wonder if anyone can direct me to a tutorial about leveling and crowning frets. The tutorial on projectguitar.com has an invalid link. t.i.a. JP First off, I'm sure there are some decent tutorials on the subject on the internet, but if your serious at all about fretting I would recommend you at least buying theFretwork Step by Step book by Dan Erlewine. If you haven't bought any fretting tools you would come out cheaper buying the Stew Mac's Essential Fretting Tool Kit which will have most everything you need to get started. I'd also really, really recommend later buying the excellent Fretting Videos (DVD or VHS). Yes they aren't cheap, but you'll learn so much from them that they will be well worth their price. If I find any good links besides the ones on Project Guitar I'll let you know.. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balooka Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 thanks Guitarfrenzy, I was thinking about getting that kit (includes a free copy of the Dan Erlewine book btw), and from reading your post I understand that that book will solve a few mystories for me. One more question though, I was lookign at one of those arbor presses with the things you can attach for the correct radius (my english kinda sucks), anyway, how would that work with a compound radiused fingerboard? I should switch blocks every 3 or 4 frets or so? Is it worth the money to get one of those (I don't really like the idea of hammering on my brandnew fretboard ) t.i.a. JP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarfrenzy Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 It's definitely worth the money. I would never go back to hammering frets in, the recoil from hammering the frets in can cause you all kinds of problems, but you can get by with hammering them in. You still need a fretting hammer though for two reasons. One, you'll hammer to seat both ends of the fret in the fretboard so you can press the frets in better. Reason two, is to hit the ends of the frets to give it a slight curve after they have been seated with press and cauls. You can use a drill press when in a bind, but I highly recommend you buying a arbor press if your going this route. Also, when your doing a compound radius you should know what radius each part of the fretboard is anyway because you'll have to use different radius sanding blocks to get the compound neck your wanting. Just pick which caul is right for the part your fretting. When you get your book it has much greater detail than I could ever give you on fretting. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Bit Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 What do you thing the best fix is to press the 15th thru 21st fret down to the same level or to build up the depressed areas with CA and fine fingerboard sawdust? In other words, are the frets supposed to indent the fingerboard? Not to distract from balooka's question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 What do you thing the best fix is to press the 15th thru 21st fret down to the same level or to build up the depressed areas with CA and fine fingerboard sawdust? In other words, are the frets supposed to indent the fingerboard? Not to distract from balooka's question. Just sand the entire fretboard down. It is standard pratice to do this. Anything else will be a compromise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 "In other words, are the frets supposed to indent the fingerboard?" No. But you'll see it sometimes on pre 1982 Fender necks. That's really weird if they get deeper with each fret down the neck. I assume you got all the frets out. Any idea how deep the deepest indentation is ? If it's only around .005" deep, it shouldn't be any problem to sand 'em out of the board. If the board is of a typical thickness, they could be sanded out even if they are .010" deep. You could still balance out the board. Only if it's a set-neck or neck-through, do you have to be so critical about that. Or, you could clean the indentations real well with acetone, then use fine sanding dust and super-glue to fill the indentations, but then you have to be careful not to fill in the fret-slots. Then you could do a light board leveling to smooth everything out, but I'm thinking you would quickly sand the indentations out of there, but I really have no idea how deep they are. You did call it a "cheap pawnshop neck". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarfrenzy Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Rhoads56 and Soapbarstrat are leading you in the right direction. Let us know how it turns out.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balooka Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Guitarfrenzy, I just re-read your post for the third time before it kinda hit me. I assume you mean by getting radiusblocks for every fret that I want to turn my fretboard into a compound, but what i meant was I'm getting a pre-slotted compound board (well several to practice on) and I don't really know how to level the frets after they are seated. A friend of mine is now copying a comp. board into cad software to figure out the radius on each fret (since my math isn't THAT good) and he'll make the correct cauls for each fret. Heh, gotta go hunting for an arbor press now T.I.A. JP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 I want to turn my fretboard into a compound, ......... ...... ..... ...and I don't really know how to level the frets after they are seated. Forget about CAD, your wasting your time. Level the frets in the same direction as the individual strings lie. Its that simple. No more thought involved. Compund radius boards are EASIER to level that plain old radiused boards. Buy Stewmacs book of fretting step by step. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarfrenzy Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 Rhoads is telling you right. When your doing a straight cylinder radius you start sanding in the middle keeping it straight at all times while you go sand the whole fretboard, you don't follow the taper of the neck, you make sure no matter where your sanding that your always parallel with the middle where you started. On a compound radius, you follow the neck taper, in other words you start in the middle then as you sand you will angle the fret leveler to follow the taper of the neck. Just like he suggest, imagine your following the way the strings follow. Before I started though, I'd recommend you getting some of these Radius Guages. To see what the radius is at various stages. You can get by with just doing the leveling, but I always went back over it with various radius sanding blocks just to reestablish the radius at all parts of the neck and taper them into one another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Bit Posted March 4, 2004 Report Share Posted March 4, 2004 how deep they are. You did call it a "cheap pawnshop neck". They are running .020" at the deepest. Its a sorta Tele but with 24 3/4" scale and a truss rod cover. If I screw it up its no loss, but if I take down the neck that much I am worried I'll go through the dots and make the side markers look goof. I figured to use some thin polyethylene sheet I have to fill the fret slot if I go the CA direction. Thanks for the kind replies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Rosenberger Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 I've run into the same problem Derek was explaining. What happens is the frets start to compress the slots the further down the neck you go. thats why the 8-12 frets dont want to go in. this stops where the heel begins because there is more wood behind the fingerboard. to test my theory I measured the width of the slots at the 8-12 positions before fretting. then re-measured them after fretting 8 positions. they were definately compressed. this is more evident in harder boards such as ebony and purpleheart. A maple board wont fight you as much if the slots a too narrow. I really can't explain it better because it defies the convention that frets will cause a neck to backbow slightly as a neck is frettted. just remember that it will only backbow slightly because of the truss rod and you'll begin to understand what I'm trying to explain. Another cause of this is fretting a neck that's had the back profiled first. it's hard to keep the support caul supporting the neck where the heel starts. I'll stop rambling on now so you can digest all of this valuable information Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarfrenzy Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 BTW, what kinda fretboard is it rosewood or ebony? Also in what order did you fret the guitar? Yeah Scott, you summed up what I was trying to say earlier nicely. That's why I was wondering which way he was fretting, but I don't think he ever answered that question yet. I'm still curious about that, but I'm thinking the same thing as you, the barbs are too big for the slots and each one he presses in makes it that much harder up the neck until they won't seat properly. Did you ever figure out the problem Krazy D? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fidgec94 Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 When you've seated about 8 frets, could re-saw the remaining slots to widen them alittle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarfrenzy Posted March 5, 2004 Report Share Posted March 5, 2004 When you've seated about 8 frets, could re-saw the remaining slots to widen them alittle? Yes you could, but I wouldn't in this situation. I'd probably either file down the barbs and glue those trouble frets in, or go back and pull all the frets out and use ones that fits the slots better so you don't have the problem to start with. Another thing to consider is to reslot all the slots to fit the current wire, but I wouldn't if I didn't have to. The reason I wouldn't resaw is simply because you want to leave as much wood as you can for the next person who might be refretting later down the road, which might end up being you.. lol But yes you can resaw out those fret slots wider if that's still the way you want to do it. It would be my last choice though. It's situations like this that you really can appreciate what the neck jig will do for you. If you had the dial calipers zero'ed in, then after you pressed the first couple of frets you would have been able to see a visual of how much the neck moves because of the frets. If it added too much, then you could have pull those frets early before you went too far and made the decision much earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 I'd probably either file down the barbs and glue those trouble frets in, It's situations like this that you really can appreciate what the neck jig will do for you. If you had the dial calipers zero'ed in, then after you pressed the first couple of frets you would have been able to see a visual of how much the neck moves because of the frets. If it added too much, then you could have pull those frets early before you went too far and made the decision much earlier. I almost always shave the fret-tang down, because it seems kind of insane to level a board perfectly, then install really tight-fitting frets in there, making the neck back-bow, then taking out the back-bow with the truss-rod nut. I like a tight fit, with minimal back-bowing. It's actually kind of a pain to use the neck-jig to monitor this. You have to lower all the support rods, which will automatically send the neck into a back-bow from having the truss-rod snug. Then you better hold the neck at the zeroed dial position while the glue dries, or the glue will dry in the back-bowed fret-slot. And if you did that all down the neck, you'd be helping to freeze the neck into a back-bowed state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krazyderek Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 i was thinking it was basicly just recoil when trying to press the fret all the way in like frank said.... since i don't shape the back of my necks until AFTER i've fretted, and i start at the nut then work my way down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Rosenberger Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 i was thinking it was basicly just recoil when trying to press the fret all the way in like frank said.... since i don't shape the back of my necks until AFTER i've fretted, and i start at the nut then work my way down I'm almost positive the slots are compressing in your case Derek. Next time you fret a neck check the width of the slots 8-12 with feeler gauges before you fret. then re measure them after you get a few frets in and you'll see exactly what is happening Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krazyderek Posted March 6, 2004 Report Share Posted March 6, 2004 will doo, what solution would you recomend?.... i'd be nice to save that little bit of the top of the wire if i can Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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