A few questions about my latest project (w/ pic)..

[CoolJay]

Hey everybody. I've been reading everyone's posts and drooling over most of your guitars. I have a new project going on, and I have a few questions. In my signature, you can see the 7-string that I made. This time, I bought the body from someone, and then had Warmoth make my neck. I really don't have much work to do on this project. This post is gonna be wordy too.

Anyway, First, here is a pic of what I'm dealing with. The body is a piece of bloodwood sandwiched between 2 strangely figured pieces of maple. THe neck is flamed maple with a scalloped bloodwood fingerboard.

Neither the body or neck have holes in them, so I have to drill those. The thing is, I'm not too sure about the order things have to go in before I do certain things. To drill the neck holes, I figure I need to make sure everything lines up. This would involve installing the trem mounting studs (Floyd), installing the 3 'E' tuners, the locking nut, and clamping it when I get it lined up, and then drill. This seems so simple, but what about my laquer finish? I can't get the trem studs out to do the finish, and I'd of course like to have everything drilled before I do the finish, and I don't know if I can laquer over the studs, so I am a little confused as to what my options are.

I guess I'm asking if there's any other way to line up a neck without installing the hardware?

Thanks in advance for ANY advice you may have. I'd like this guitar to turn out nice, and I have ALL the hardware and finishing materials I need, so I'm anxious to 'get the ball rollin'.

Jay.

[Drak]

Well, I'll give you my normal song and dance routine about the fact that if the relationships between:

1. The scale length being precisely correct between nut and bridge saddles

2. A playable action

3. Neck to bridge straightness (presentation of the strings down the neck to the bridge)

...are all correct, -then- you have a guitar in the making.

If any one of those aren't perfectly up to snuff, then you have a pretty piece of sculpted wood for a wall hanging, and that's about it.

Or maybe a slide guitar, ...but I love slide guitar too!

All the cool woods and body shapes don't amount to a pint of ale in Sydney if she won't play properly like a guitar needs to.

So...leave the worries about your finish at the doorstop, and concentrate on making a guitar first, and a pretty guitar second.

This will adjust your priorities to where they need to be.

So.

Yes, you need to be able to at least place the nut in it's final position.

Maybe not permanently set yet, but it needs to be sitting at home, at least temporarily. So if you need to install it, then install it.

Yes, you need to install your stud inserts so you can set the bridge in place.

Yes, you need to then place the neck in the pocket and check your scale length with a 4' rule from nut to bridge saddles for correct length. You may need to back the neck up a snatch or even move it forward, which would mean re-cutting the neck pocket forward a hair, but you need to know this information, it's critical.

You have already drilled your insert holes, so that end is set in stone, if you need movement, it will have to come from sliding the neck forward or back.

I never drill those holes until I've already set the neck in place, butted up against the pocket, then measure and mark those holes.

You seem to have drilled them w/o being sure of your scale length being on the mark yet...maybe you have? My bad if you have checked that already.

With the neck in the pocket, sit the 4' rule on the neck and check the travel down to the bridge.

Is the neck sitting too high? Too low? (shim)

You need to know in case you need to deepen the pocket or you'll need a little shim or something, but you need this information, this is what makes a guitar a guitar.

Don't worry about your inserts, take a Q-tip and snap it in half and stick them down in the holes to protect your threads...hell, I've even picked up a cig butt or two and jammed them in there (they were mine )...a perfect fit.

Once you get all that figured out, and everything is working OK, then decide how you're installing the neck. If you're using a neck plate, just hold it up to the pocket from the back and line it up, mark your holes and drill them out in the body.

Then get your neck all lined up PERFECT, and stick a clamp (gently but firmly, use a light cloth over the frets) and clamp it in place while you drill out your holes thru the body and into the neck.

Make sure you mark your drill bit with tape so you don't drill thru to the top of the fretboard. Make sure you know the correct drill bit size to use beforehand.

Afterwards, screw that sucker on and doublecheck everything, string travel, scale length, and (rough) action.

Then you can disassemble everything for finishing.

OK for now?

Get your head into what makes a guitar a guitar, not cool body shapes and pkp route holes and quilts and that stuff, none of that stuff makes a guitar a guitar.

PS, that is a *BEAUTIFUL* looking project!

[daveq]

Sweet looking guitar - I really like it!!

Here's how I line up my necks (not THE way but a way):

I drill my holes in the body before doing anything with the neck. I use my drill press for this - if you don't have one - make a jig to help keep the holes perpendicular to the body.

I clamp the body to the edge of my workbench so that the neck pocket hangs over the edge (use something to prevent the clamps from gouging the body). I use to small clamps to hold the neck in the pocket (be sure that they will hold - don't risk having the neck dropping). I use a laser to shine down the center line of the body and down the neck. A center line must be marked on the neck before setting this up. Make sure the center line mark on the heel side of the neck lines up with the center line of the body (the laser will tell you this) and then make small adjustments to the headstock end until it is lined up. Double check the entire line and be sure the laser is right on the line the whole way (from the edge of the body to the end of the fretboard).

The nice thing about the laser is that it will navigate the up's and downs as it goes accross the body and up the neck and down the headstock without loosing any accuracy. With a straight edge, I would think that there would be some chance for error since it would be raised above the body and you'd need to estimate where it lies on the body's center line. There's probably tricks to using a straight edge for this but since I have the laser - I use it.

Now, I tighten the neck clamps as much as I can without damaging anything - the re-check the center line again. Next, I grab a drill bit (brad point) and twist it inside the holes in the body so that it marks the hole positions in the neck. You can probably just drill the holes at this point but I prefer to do that on my drill press.

So far, it has worked for me every time. I think the only tricky part is marking the holes without moving the neck - you need to be very careful to not place any force on anything other than the drill bit when marking the holes.

No matter what method you end up using - take your time and be absolutely sure you're lined up properly before drilling those neck holes.

Now, on the odd chance that something goes wrong - don't worry - there are ways to recover but hopefully you won't need to go there.

Post pics when you've got it together - it's gonna look great!

[CoolJay]

Well, I'll give you my normal song and dance routine about the fact that if the relationships between:

1. The scale length being precisely correct between nut and bridge saddles

2. A playable action

3. Neck to bridge straightness (presentation of the strings down the neck to the bridge)

...are all correct, -then- you have a guitar in the making.

If any one of those aren't perfectly up to snuff, then you have a pretty piece of sculpted wood for a wall hanging, and that's about it.

Or maybe a slide guitar, ...but I love slide guitar too!

All the cool woods and body shapes don't amount to a pint of ale in Sydney if she won't play properly like a guitar needs to.

So...leave the worries about your finish at the doorstop, and concentrate on making a guitar first, and a pretty guitar second.

This will adjust your priorities to where they need to be.

So.

Yes, you need to be able to at least place the nut in it's final position.

Maybe not permanently set yet, but it needs to be sitting at home, at least temporarily. So if you need to install it, then install it.

Yes, you need to install your stud inserts so you can set the bridge in place.

Yes, you need to then place the neck in the pocket and check your scale length with a 4' rule from nut to bridge saddles for correct length. You may need to back the neck up a snatch or even move it forward, which would mean re-cutting the neck pocket forward a hair, but you need to know this information, it's critical.

You have already drilled your insert holes, so that end is set in stone, if you need movement, it will have to come from sliding the neck forward or back.

I never drill those holes until I've already set the neck in place, butted up against the pocket, then measure and mark those holes.

You seem to have drilled them w/o being sure of your scale length being on the mark yet...maybe you have? My bad if you have checked that already.

With the neck in the pocket, sit the 4' rule on the neck and check the travel down to the bridge.

Is the neck sitting too high? Too low? (shim)

You need to know in case you need to deepen the pocket or you'll need a little shim or something, but you need this information, this is what makes a guitar a guitar.

Don't worry about your inserts, take a Q-tip and snap it in half and stick them down in the holes to protect your threads...hell, I've even picked up a cig butt or two and jammed them in there (they were mine )...a perfect fit.

Once you get all that figured out, and everything is working OK, then decide how you're installing the neck. If you're using a neck plate, just hold it up to the pocket from the back and line it up, mark your holes and drill them out in the body.

Then get your neck all lined up PERFECT, and stick a clamp (gently but firmly, use a light cloth over the frets) and clamp it in place while you drill out your holes thru the body and into the neck.

Make sure you mark your drill bit with tape so you don't drill thru to the top of the fretboard. Make sure you know the correct drill bit size to use beforehand.

Afterwards, screw that sucker on and doublecheck everything, string travel, scale length, and (rough) action.

Then you can disassemble everything for finishing.

OK for now?

Get your head into what makes a guitar a guitar, not cool body shapes and pkp route holes and quilts and that stuff, none of that stuff makes a guitar a guitar.

PS, that is a *BEAUTIFUL* looking project!

Damn, Thanks for the advice. I'm not sure if you were helping me, trying to insult me, or maybe some of both, but thanks for the advice anyway.

I understand that you can't just slap 2 pieces of wood together and have it turn into a beautiful guitar. That's not what I'm doing. I don't remember posting that (or anything that even resembled that) at all. I got this body from a luthier guy, and then I had Warmoth make the neck....because I didn't want to run into any problems...I just want this to be my "finishing" project....not my wood-cutting project. The only thing I'm actually cutting is a truss rod cover.

I've placed the neck in the pocket, and put the Floyd where it belongs (without the posts though), and everything seems to be a perfect 25.5". I don't think I'm going to have any problems. However, I have never actually drilled neck attachment holes, so I figured I'd ask. I will be using a neck-plate, but I also have neck-ferrules in case I change my mind, but something keeps making me think that a plate is more stable, so I'm probably going to use the plate.

My real question was about the trem posts. From your answer, it seems like it's not a problem to laquer over them....and that I actually need to install them first (just as I thought)....I guess that really IS the only way to make sure the alignment is dead-on.

The reason the trem stud holes are drilled, is because I asked the luthier to do that for me since I don't have a drill-press large enough, and last time I did that, they came out crooked and almost ruined my whole project. So he did it for me. I told him I was using a Floyd and a Warmoth neck with 25.5 scale, and he got everything right.

Thanks again,

Jay.

[CoolJay]

@daveq...Thanks. That helps. It's basically the way I thought to do it, but you included the details I wasn't sure about.

Thanks,

Jay.

[CoolJay]

Okay, both of you guys mentioned something that I'd like to ask about (if anyone's still reading this).

You both said to drill the holes in the body, and then, later, drill the holes in the neck. I've heard this before also, so I just wonder why. I figured that you would clamp it and then drill the neck and body at the same time with the same drillbit, but you guys are sort of implying that this isn't the best way to do it. So I'm just wondering why you'd do them at different times.?

Thanks again,.

Jay.

[daveq]

That helps. It's basically the way I thought to do it, but you included the details I wasn't sure about

Wow, really? I've never heard of anyone else doing it like that before. Maybe it's just the way most people do it and nobody ever mentions it? I have an old Dan Erlewine video somewhere but I don't remember how he suggested to do it - I'm positive he didn't use a laser though.

I think there are a few reasons why I don't do both at the same time. Probably the biggest reason is that I'd be nervous that the drilling would create movement in the neck when the bit enters the neck wood. Also, drilling from the back of the guitar (using a drill press) prevents me from seeing the center line as marked on the fretboard and also makes it hard to keep the body perpendicular to the drill bit (since the fretboard sticks up above the body). I'm sure it can be done but it seems like more work than it is worth.

[Drak]

If I wanted to insult you, I could have done that in one sentence or less.

No insults, just answering your question the most thorough way I could was all.

[Devon Headen]

Very helpful topic. What kind of laser do you use? If you got it on the net, do you have a link?

[CoolJay]

If I wanted to insult you, I could have done that in one sentence or less.

No insults, just answering your question the most thorough way I could was all.

Cool.

Sorry.

Thanks again to you and daveq for your posts, because both of you said things that I was looking for.

Rock on,

Jay.

[daveq]

It's just a laserline type thing that you can get at the hardware store. Mine is a level/laser-line type but pretty muc hany laser will work as long as you can rest it flat on something. Good luck - hope it works out for you.

[VanKirk]

Here's a newbie question that i'd like to know (I think it's on topic still without high-jacking)....

What if the neck pocket is just a few millimeters off from direct center?

If nothing has been routed and this few millimeters is taken into the rest of the routing measurements, is it OK to install the neck this few millimeters from center?

I'm starting to worry about my project not having enough wood on one side of the pocket after final sanding to install the neck dead-center.

I have nothing but the rear control cavity routed.

Seems like I'd be OK but I'd like to be sure before I put more time into it.

[VanKirk]

^^^^^Anyone?^^^^^

[GregP]

No idea.

You could always shim if there's not enough wood. Line up the neck, ignoring the wee gap that's there and only focusing on centering it. Mark your drill locations, etc., and then figure out the best way to get some wood-to-wood contact AFTER everything lines up nicely.

Of course, I don't know what I'm talking about, so I'm just hypothesizing.

Greg

[Brian]

Install the neck and draw a new centerline down the body for the hardware so it will work properly............

[joris]

I agree. If you only routed the pocket, just make sure all the other routings are centered on that new line.

I should work without any problem.

[krazyderek]

Jay.

what ever happened to this guitar? i was planning a project with some bloodwood when i remembered this guitar? is jay still around??