Lacquer?

[sjaguar13]

I found some lacquer in spray cans. How do I tell if it's nitro lacquer or acrylic lacquer or whatever? If it's not nitro, is it still going to be okay?

[Southpa]

Yes it will still be ok. Actually, you would prefer it to be acrylic laquer because its more UV resistant than the celluloid based nitro. The early guitar builders had a big problem with paint fading and checking because of nitro thats why they made the big move to using acrylic based laquer. I'm not sure if nitro was even available in rattle cans, maybe someone can add to that.

[JohnJohn]

I've had good luck using rattle can acrylic laquer.The kind I use is Krylon 41301 Crystal Clear.Just got to shake the can a lot at first to get it going.

I'll also set it in warm,(not hot)water so it flows smoothly.The trick seems to be cure time between coats.The can says 12-15 minutes,but about 12 hours is best or it just pools.

[Devon Headen]

Can anybody answer how to tell whether it's nitro or acrylic based?

[sjaguar13]

Doesn't www.ReRanch.com sell the nitro spray cans? So either way, I should just buy the paint? It's either going to be nitro which is cool because of ReRanch or acrylic which I thought sucked, but if it doesn't fade, I'm all for it. It's from a body shop. Does that make a difference?

[mdw3332]

Doesn't www.ReRanch.com sell the nitro spray cans?

Yes - ReRanch does sell nitro in aerosol cans.

[guitar_ed]

Howdy,

One thought or question on this thread, and others like it.

Why all the hysteria about UV fading? I do not leave my guitars outside for extended periods of time, and I would bet that most people on this site do not either. Inside the house there is almost zero UV, and inside a case or gig bag, it is zero.

I would have to believe that if dyes are fading, and I am sure that they do, it is not the result of exposure to UV rays. Rather, it something else.

If I am full of crap, and it would not be the first time, could somebody please explain how a guitar would get sufficient exposure to UV rays to fade them?

Thanks,

Guitar Ed

Always trying to

[Southpa]

I got this:

But the problem with all paints (mostly lacquer, but also enamel) at the time was color retention. The resins used in nitrocellulose lacquer were celluloid based, and promoted quick color fading (enamel's resins at the time were alkyd based). The celluloid-based binder in nitrocellulose lacquer had more problems because it yellowed and "checked" with time ("checking" is the term for slight finish cracking due to brittle paint). So if you bought a new 1955 Chevy in pastel red, by 1958 it could turn to a coral pink (red is the most photo-reactive color) and checked. Also, nitrocellulose lacquers "yellowed". This could change an original blue finish to a green. GM wanted answers to these lacquer problems, and they turned to DuPont. (In 1917 DuPont began buying an interest in General Motors Corporation and owned 25 percent of the stock at the end of 1925. In 1962, after 13 years of antitrust litigation, DuPont was ordered to divest itself of GM stock.)

In 1956 DuPont started using acrylic binders in their lacquer. This solved the yellowing problem, and to a large extent, the color retention problem too (acrylic is more UV resistant than celluloid). Also, since acrylic binders have better elasticity, the checking problem disappeared too. The only down side to acrylic lacquer is, to some, a myth. That is it never dries as hard as nitrocellulose lacquer (hence no checking problems). And since it doesn't dry as hard, it doesn't buff and shine as well (many, mostly in the paint industry, dispute this, but as a painter I agree). Any old-time car painter will argue this to the death.

from this site:

http://www.provide.net/~cfh/fenderc.html

They have some VERY good info regarding history, development and applications of various types of paint used in the guitar industry. It does state that acrylic is more UV resistant than nitro but also mentions that nitro will yellow regardless of what it is exposed to. You could leave a nitro coated Lake Placid blue strat in its case for twenty years and it will still come out greenish.

[VanKirk]

I'd have to agree, Ed. I would think that you would see slight fading after 25-30 years but look at how popular relicing has become. UV fade could be 'in style'.

I'm just guessing though, so like Ed, someone with experience please set us straight.

[sjaguar13]

What if I get the paint and it's acylic, and then I get nitro clear. Is that going to work?

[JohnJohn]

Reranch may not be able to ship to all areas,if memory serves me right some states and borders will not allow products like nitro to shipped across.But I'm sure if you contact them they can let you know and maybe even give you a point in the right direction to a supplier in your area.

Florescent lights can cause UV fade or discolouration.But this does take a few years.ie:white guitars can take on a golden brown colour,although very light it is a slight change in colour which somem people don't like and some people dont really feel too concerned about.

You can spray one kind of laquer over another,but,you need proper curing time and there can be adhesion problems which will appear during sanding and polishing.Different clears have different patiena's which can result in a difference in the appearance.

Acrylic laquer's lay on top of each other in different levels,if you sand on an angle you will see each layer of clear.Nitro is self activating,as you lay each layer on it heats the layer below it slightly and melts into it.Some people use this to salvage older finishes.There is a product that cleans and reactivates laquer,but I can't remember what it's called,(sorry ).

For best results it is best to stay with a similar clear by the same company all the way through a spray.Similar products can vary slighty in formula from manufacterer to manufacterer.Most manufacterer's are more than happy to supply technical information on the product that includes composition,drying times and application.

Hope some of this helps.

[guitar_ed]

Hi SouthPa,

Thanks for that quote, and it addresses my point. 1) You really need sunlight to get UV fading, because most of us do leave our cars in the sun most of the time. But not our guitars 2) Even with out sunlight, a Nitro finish will experience discoloration over time. Though the process of discoloration is likely better understood and controlled now versus 40+ years ago.

So the issue really is not UV rays, so much as the fact that applying dyes and applying a finish starts a chemical process that never really ends. And it may be that the finish itself, be it Nitro or Poly, is a part of that chemical process, resulting in color changes.

As for JJ's comment that flourescent lights can cause UV fading, I cannot imagine that there is all that much UV emission in regular lighting flourescent bulbs, because I have never heard of any body getting a sun burn from them, and I used to spend long hours under them.

I think that over the next week or so I will try and find somebody who can answer the flourescent/UV question. But where to start????????

Guitar Ed

[JohnJohn]

Good call Ed saying UV fade wasn't the best terminology on my part .

I e-mailed GE to see what they had on the effects of lightbulbs and colour fade,see what they have to say.I wonder if there would be a better source of info.Maybe Dupont or Sherwin-Williams?I'm sure somebody has done a study on light and colour fade.

[JohnJohn]

Okay,GE sent me a ton of stuff.Apparently flourescent lights do emmit UV.There was a study on it a few years ago.I'll post the link.But first there is a ton of stuff to go through.They sent me almost 2 pages of links on UV from lights and colour fading