Sustainer Ideas

[psw]

Yeah...things ain't what they used to be...especially in DIY. I feel so old...I remember back in the day there were radio shops all over the place....Actually, I was able to get small rolls of 0.2mm wire really easily but DSE is slowly moving out of electronic components in most stores and those that do keep them only the most basic of components...their smaller competitors seem to be doing the same.

I have this collection of old library DIY popular mechanics that was all DIY stuff from the fifties and sixties and it is fascinating and very funny...and a little unsafe...what people would get up to in their garage. One had a spinning empty paint can so that you and your neighbor could shoot it and by calculating the distance between the bullet going in one side and distance out the other the speed of the bullet with the sole aim of seeing which one of you had the fastest speed...must be a cultural thing

Anyway...yes...you may need to browse through for ideas on the bass idea. There may need to be some adjustment to the circuit and design but the principle should work, though it isn't completely realized. I am not entirely sure of the musical application of the thing...but hey, each to their own.

Normally, wire gauge is marked on the reel. It sounds very much like 0.1mm or something and so not really usable. Keep it in case you want to make a parallel multi coil driver someday perhaps.

Now I will try to find some of my components around the house - had a little rush this morning, so coulden't clean up before leaving for work. When I got home that cats has been playing with my stash!

Thanks for that, that image has put a smile on my face. I have always had cats around in the past but not for a few years now and living alone makes you kind of sensitive to misplaced things and noises in the night, etc. The other week, I was sitting there and I just saw this big bushy tail out of the corner of my eye going past the doorway after midnight while watching tv and overtired. I'm thinking...what the f@#$ was that, how could any wildlife get in the house? I was searched everywhere and eventually I found this huge cat was getting in via a small hole I made to use a portable aircon in summer in the workroom. Now I know what has mysteriously been knocking over my epoxy resin bottles that I have been cursing myself for...they are right under this window!

One step at a time...you still have a few hurdles yet to overcome before experimenting and developing a bass model...but the principle is essentially the same...

pete

[Konstanz Kuitars]

I'm going to add my input. I don't know if it has been tried yet or not, but would it work to use an output from a effects (or amp) unit with a cord wired to the driver coil? I have a strange feeling that somebody has already tried it. . .

Edited April 30, 2008 by Konstanz Kuitars

[DCobb]

Hmm, I've had a better look at the projects you've done with sustainers and the other threads now. To be honest, I'm looking for a layout very similar to the stratocaster you fitted with a sustainer -> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/pet...on/StratTop.jpg

Any chance of a rundown of exactly what components/tools you'd need to get that from an ordinary stratocaster? since I will soon have a useless squier when I upgrade, I'm thinking of joining in on the game of messing around

[LarsXI]

The piggyback method mentioned sounds like a good move. I have a p90 in the neck, I'll find a cheap one to experiment on. Eventually, should I shoot for an additional coil on top of the pickup coil, but in the same housing?

[psw]

Welcome new and old followers of this thread.

Konstanz Kuitars

would it work to use an output from a effects (or amp) unit with a cord wired to the driver coil?

Well...yes and no. A signal output is tiny and could in no way power a coil...plus the impedance would be all wrong. You need a poweramp, small like a lm386 running from this signal. As an experiment, an effect box will usually provide and adequate buffer to allow the split of the signal after it without loading the thing down though, this is usefull if you wanted to try compressors and such in an attempt to create gain control...as an experiment.

As a working device, there are significant problems unless the guitar has only one pickup. It most likely could not run with stereo or even parallel guitar leads without some interference through there and all the bypass swithcing issues and EMI issues still exist. Various different experiments have been done in this vein but that is all they would ever really amount to I am afraid. Installing the driver is such a commitment that you may as well build the whole thing in...of likely it would be necessary anyway. There is no getting around some major rewiring and the building of circuits with this thing...and a lot of problem solving and patience.

DCobb

Ahhh the sustain-o-caster...now retired and hanging in my hall by the front door. This was a $50 pawnshop special. Over time it evolved and the sustainer and a few piezo experiments were the last mods to the thing. It is essentially hollowed out and there is a reasonably large cavity behind the jackplate socket for the sustainer circuitry and battery and anything else I might want to try without having to get in under the scratchplate.

The sustainer controls are the two switches and LED above the jack socket, one knob is the sensitivity control, but this is always on ten.

Other mods were the stripping of the crap sunburst and natural finish, cutting a soundhole that goes all the way through and some hollowint under the scratchplate to accommodate the gibson style three way selector. The centre tone knob is a volume control for the middle pickup which can be added to any combination. This means all combinations but the middle alone are possible and the middle pickup can be mixed to taste. Also, the three mini toggles are phase switches which gives some dramatically different effects to combinations, especially the middle pickup control...adding midrange or creating various amounts of quack. Otherwise, master volume and tone. In this pic you may see a wire coming out of the neck socket...this was to try a piezo in this location and it did work but has since been removed. I am working on another piezo thing now however.

This is a cheap guitar and plays like one. However, I replaced the bridge and staggered the tuners and developed a lot of tweaks to the trem and set up on this, learning a lot along the way. It stayed in tune very well with a full floating trem. Moving time and better guitars now see it hanging on the wall...but it served it's purpose and preserved other guitars from the indignity of further experimentation. I have since got a bunch of other cheap guitars to try these kinds of things on and if anyone was in melbourne, I could sell you some very cheap brand new perfect for this kind of thing

If you have specific questions, feel free to ask. A lot of people have admired this guitar but really probably a little too many ideas thrown at it. The idea of this kind of thing is to test ideas and then take the best and the knowledge gained to good instruments or to make cheap instruments better.

Look out for some of my new guitars which have some of these ideas...maybe even in the GOTM. I don't actually build things even now but construct them from guitars like squiers or parts. My new tele plays exceptionally well with hardware exceeding the top of the line fenders and innovative ideas without going too far over the top. I have an LP in the works too...but these take time and I like to let them evolve with playing, tweaking them as I go and working out the details that are so important for a guitar to feel and play just right.

LarsXI

The piggyback method mentioned sounds like a good move. I have a p90 in the neck, I'll find a cheap one to experiment on. Eventually, should I shoot for an additional coil on top of the pickup coil, but in the same housing?

Obviously, I like it. There are so many reasons going for it...the magnets and mounting are supplied by the pickup for one thing! I have not done a p-90 but I don't see any reason for it not to work or be easier. If it has screw poles these could be used to mount the thin coil and so ensure that it is hidden under the cover and the screws raised to the cover's top...so invisible.

That is a very good idea...get a cheap one and do this mod rather than risk something good. In fact, probably worth making a stand alone coil and circuit and testing everything outside the guitar IMO...certainly I did and still do when trying something new.

For the moment, I am having a rest from the sustainer. I have one guitar that I would like to do it with, the circuit and coil are all mounted but the switching is a nightmare. Shame cause the guitar is a lovely guitar to play and has fanatastic pickups on it. I think I just threw a little too much at it and it is so complicated that in my present state of healt...not an advisable project...

still...always here if you are prepared to DIY...

pete

[Fresh Fizz]

Hi Pete,

It's been a long time since my last post on this forum. I only want to tell you that I've finished building my sustainer device and I'm totally happy with it.

Some things stayed the same:

power ic tda7231 and the 12volts outboard power supply

While others changed:

I took my old dual blade humbucker-type driver and filed off the piece of iron core that was protruding from the bobbin. That helped to decrease the difference in sensitivity between low and high fret positions.

So a built-in distortion wasn't a good idea. I've replaced it with a compressor. I built a slightly modified Ross compressor with a ca3080 IC. I kept the EQ flat. Which means no high boost before and high cut after the ca3080. There is plenty compression (it actually works as a limiter) about 34 dB. At about 40 dB the poor thing can't take it anymore and starts distorting.

The result:

I have strong sustain on all strings and fret positions. And I hear almost no fizz at all! I've set up my sustainer device in such way that a minimum of distortion is generated. My power ic uses all the headroom there is but doesn't distort.

I always thought that the fizz occurred because of magnetic crosstalk. Apparently not in my case. My driver is in the neck pickup position and my power ic in the mid pickup position of my strat. That could be an explanation.

It seems to me that the fizz came from an acoustic action=reaction thing. The distorted signal on the driver made the string vibrate in such way that it was perceived as a distorted sound at the guitar pickup. Something that supports this theory (Colin: read hunch ) is the fact that with chords I can hear sometimes a little bit of fizz. Should be one string interfering with the string vibration of another string or so. It's hardly noticeable with the blade, my pseudo-hexaphonic driver had more problems with it.

The lesson I learned is: avoid any distortion and use strong compression and listen to Pete's advice

So my sustainer project has come to an end. I would like to thank everybody (especially Pete) who has helped me. This forum was a confidence building environment to me. The final step for me to start building one sustainer myself. I go back into lurk mode. Good luck to the other builders.

Fresh Fizz

[Setain]

Fresh Fizz, would you mind posting a schematic of your circuit. I have been interested in this project for a while, but I have been waiting for someone to build a successful compressor (and I only just recently got a cheap victim.)

[tcdk]

I now finished my ruby amp (I think)

Drawed an board-layout instead of using a hole-board, got the size down on 40x30mm

I tried to connect a 9V batteri and a small speaker - but can't realy seem to find anything I can use as input to se if it works ?

Any suggestions?

[DCobb]

haha, great explanation and method for testing guitar modifications without defacing more expensive guitars when things go wrong, but I was more specifically referring to the sustainer

I'm going to test lots of diy sustainer things on my beaten up squier, but the custom guitar I'm looking to build soon is what I want the finished kind of sustainer mod to be placed on (it's going to be a hollowbody strat shaped guitar). What I meant really was what are the exact materials you'd need from scratch to turn an HSS stratocaster into an HSS stratocaster with a sustainer? I'll be buying bits soon , so any advice? Ideally it needs an off-on switch and a normal/harmonic switch (In a PERFECT world, it needs an off - bridge pickup - middle pickup switch and a normal/harmonic/blend switch xD)

[darqdean]

I'm currently mid-way through building my own sustainer and have a general question for anyone who's built a twin driver/pickup, like this one from psw's tutorial:

This is effectively a transformer with the (blue) driver being the primary and the (black) pickup the secondary. The turns-ratio for this is high, (in the version I have built it's about 1:36), so an 8v pk-pk drive signal will induce hundreds of volts in the secondary ( ) - which in turn will cause all kinds of interference issues with the other pickups on the guitar whether the neck-pickup is switched in or not.

Is this a problem? Has anyone addressed/fix this in the past?

Edited May 1, 2008 by darqdean

[psw]

Fresh Fizz

Now what a great post, that makes the time I spend on this all worth while. Especially because it worked for you, and also because you found your own way contributing greatly to the conversation (which I always enjoyed and inspired many for quite some time there) and furthering the project as a whole.

This is a bonus...

The lesson I learned is: avoid any distortion and use strong compression and listen to Pete's advice

If not right, I need to be corrected. Unfortunately for us it is difficult to be definitive about this thing, at least with my/our methods and understanding. One of the great benefits of this project is in the learning, resourcefulness and creativity required...to which you showed oodles...which I hope will hold you in good stead for the rest of your life when encountering frustrating problems like these. Thank you, and I will sit back a while and glow in your heartwarming praise....

Ok...yes, your results seem to indicate that my hunch about clean headroom has some validity.

I always thought that the fizz occurred because of magnetic crosstalk. Apparently not in my case. My driver is in the neck pickup position and my power ic in the mid pickup position of my strat. That could be an explanation.

It seems to me that the fizz came from an acoustic action=reaction thing. The distorted signal on the driver made the string vibrate in such way that it was perceived as a distorted sound at the guitar pickup. Something that supports this theory (Colin: read hunch) is the fact that with chords I can hear sometimes a little bit of fizz. Should be one string interfering with the string vibration of another string or so. It's hardly noticeable with the blade, my pseudo-hexaphonic driver had more problems with it.

What I had been trying to suggest back then was that the benefit of your approach with a higher gain amp was the potential for more power before it distorts. Your clipping preamp undermined this IMHO. By having a clean preamp that limits the signal when it gets too much and perhaps raises it if it is not strong enough (what a compressor does and what I now use in my circuit, and col an even more sophisticated purpose designed forward feed circuit) you are limiting the distortion while allowing quite a bit of power. Having the mid located circuit is also aiding in keeping the driver wires short and away from the rest of the guitar's electronics...good move, especially with the higher power you are generating.

My hunch was that by running clean, if EMI problems occur at a low level, the pickups would be sensing a signal very close to that of the string signal and it would be barely noticeable in the sound. The very bad fizz being the sound of the sustainer amp distorting through the filters of the pickups and electronics of the guitar itself and the driver. A chord may be overloading things creating a slight fizz till the compressor clamps down on it...or there may well be something in what you are suggesting...or a combination of both, the pickup sensing the signal from a driver unable to transfer the complex signal of multiple strings as cleanly and so the hidden clean EMI is revealed...hmmm

tcdk

I now finished my ruby amp (I think)

I tried to connect a 9V battery and a small speaker - but can't really seem to find anything I can use as input to see if it works ?

Any suggestions?

Preferably a guitar...a line out device like a MP3 player will already be amplified as with any headphone out device...although if it working and the volume low...even this will give you an idea if the thing is working at all...good work. Also...one mod I make to that kind of circuit is a 10uF cap between pins 1 and 8 (the top two on either side) of the LM386. I also use a 100uF output capacitor for more highs but this may need to be substituted to find what works best for your guitar.

haha, great explanation and method for testing guitar modifications without defacing more expensive guitars when things go wrong, but I was more specifically referring to the sustainer

Ahhh...sorry, people sometimes ask about the whole guitar. The threads tagged to the end of my posts are required reading. The pictorial is in fact this very pickup/driver and is good for anyone making a simple thin coil of this type (on or off a pickup. I built one just the same off the pickup with cardboard bobbin and steel core 3mm thick and placed a pickup magnet on it to test the concept and size before doing this. In this way I got some practice, made sure it would work and was able to test all the circuitry in advance of the mods (holding the driver above the strings)...advice for anybody.

I meant really was what are the exact materials you'd need from scratch to turn an HSS stratocaster into an HSS stratocaster with a sustainer?

Ahhh...well here's the rub...this is not an exact thing and an agreed approach has not been agreed on...otherwise this whole thread would be a short definitive tutorial with no discussion and a lot of pictures...or a product or kit of parts bought directly from me!!!! like this...

So...what you are doing is exactly what presently has me stumped...

but hopefully with out this coming out the back to operate all the bells and whistles...

This is an example of what can happen if you push the envelope of guitar modification a little too far...

Inside is a super switch plus 3x 4pdt switches and 3x dpdt pushpots...controls that I literally built myself. The battery is mounted in a space under routed behind the tremolo block and the switches on the surface, although many are completely stealthy. Although many, none are really visible on the surface and no extra holes were required into the top of the guitar.

The sustainer is my newest ultra thin removable epoxy coil on a jeff beck noiseless fender neck pickup...again not really visible under it's cover.

On just about any multi pickup guitar it looks like one needs at least a 4pdt switch to turn it on and bypass the other controls. Guitarnuts did do a circuit for me that suggested that a superswitch could achieve this in one position (#4 I think) as this also is a 4pdt switch, but with 5 positions. The sustain-o-caster uses a toggle 4pdt. The harmonic is a standard dpdt and could be a push pull pot then.

The problem is that with a complex multi pickup guitar the more difficult it is to switch everything off, the power on and select the bridge pickup alone...and I seem to have failed to achieve this at this point without the aid of electronic switching. As it stands there tends to be a slight "pop" when switching off that was revealed in the sustain-o-caster and has not yet been fully addressed or even completely understood. A lot of pages were dedicated to this questions, but an answer has not been forthcoming...at least ones that have been tested.

It will work, but a disaster for a commercial proposition and not a sound you would want to hear through a wall of marshalls say, let alone a 20,000 watt PA!

A strat also has the problem of the middle pickup...more difficult again to a 2 pickup guitar...and may limit selection or wiring options even. The only way to get more switching poles easily is perhaps with a rotary switch of some kind. Even then, it would appear from discussions in recent times that the problem lies in stored energy in the coils, released when switched back to the guitar circuitry. If this is the case, then possibly electronic switching with a slight delay to avoid the "pop" may work. It seems to be the approach of both fernandes and sustainiac to the problem. It is a little outside of my "expertise" to devise it, and at this point, beyond my frustration level (which is why I am taking a break from this and leaving this beautiful and quite expensive guitar handing on the wall unplayed )

Still...all that wiring in this guitar is of course not simply for the sustainer...this guitar has so many ideas it is a little silly and while my latest guitars have some innovative ideas, they are nothing like as silly as this...I think I have been having a reaction to this extreme modding! My latest don't even have a sustainer in them...kind of ironic.

One of the main reasons there has not been more progress in this is that I seem to be one of the few or only people for which this has always been a priority. For instance, fresh fizz has had a success with his version...but it has only one bridge pickup on it. Additionally it has a dual coil driver...this may also help. Many successful drivers have been built with this format and I am thinking of biting the bullet and making my own specific sustainer guitar with the same straight forward approach.

This is experimental and there are two products out there that will do the job without experimentation very well. This should seriously be considered and, unlike mine...some will have the mix option and none of the hassles. I briefly played a sustainiac and I believe they give good service and have a lot of the problems ironed out. The neck pickup is active when off and sounded pretty good. On the custom made H/S/S 24 fret JEM copy, everything functioned very well.

This thread is about "sustainer ideas" and alternatives as well as a DIY approach and taking different steps towards that end. A lot has been almost a blog of my obsessive endeavors to solve the puzzle in my own way, a lot has been from people who wish to join the journey via their own route or follow in my footsteps. Along the way there have been quite a few successful creations plus a lot of failures. Always there has been frustration and challenge.

Taking that on board, the cheaper and easier option is quite possibly to buy the thing fully developed, it may even end up cheaper and certainly less frustrating with many more of the answers you seek at hand. After all, it is a rare sight to see a home built car...let alone one where the engine was designed and built from scratch by the actual driver of the thing. It is something to consider, and if I hadn't gone so far and been bitten by the bug and in getting "so close" I would have done that in the first place.

However, on the plus side...where the frustrations are rewarded with some success, the life long benefits are significant, and some people actually enjoy a challenge.

So...again, a typically long thread from me with hunches and musings along the way...possibly not completely answering anything in particular. In the near future, I will be installing a mod board in my new guitar which may interest some, so watch out for that. Also, there are a number of interesting things about the overall build and another that I am working on so watch the finished build for a thread and maybe even GOTM...you know what to do!

till then...pete

[psw]

Welcome darqdean

I'm currently mid-way through building my own sustainer and have a general question for anyone who's built a twin driver/pickup, like this one from psw's tutorial:

This is effectively a transformer with the (blue) driver being the primary and the (black) pickup the secondary. The turns-ratio for this is high, (in the version I have built it's about 1:36), so an 8v pk-pk drive signal will induce hundreds of volts in the secondary ( ) - which in turn will cause all kinds of interference issues with the other pickups on the guitar whether the neck-pickup is switched in or not.

Is this a problem? Has anyone addressed/fix this in the past?

I built one...actually, quite a few

hahahaha

Well spotted...yes, large voltages but very low currents. No harm over many years came to this pickup which is still working well. This was explored further as I guess I didn't really concern myself with it within the last six months. The secondary (pickup coil) needs to be completely disconnected both hot and ground, from the rest of the guitar circuit in operation (hence the switching problem). One suggestion that did work was that you run the two coils in parallel in operation. Due to the extreme difference in values, the additional secondary coil proved to make very little difference to impedance to the overall device. It worked equally as well it would seem and showed a lot of promise for future development in some ways.

There was an amusing few threads there where I struggled with the maths on this but the overall impedance difference between the primary alone and the two in parallel was less that 0.5 ohms and well within the tolerances of this project.

If only you were here a lot earlier to point this out, this avenue could have been explored a little further. So, here is your chance, hook both the pickup and the driver coils in parallel and post your readings and results comparing the driver alone and the pickup/driver in parallel (definitely not series). It could even help with the switching woes. A whole area there to explore with a very simple connection of wires...

Well spotted...welcome aboard... pete

[darqdean]

::snip::

If only you were here a lot earlier to point this out, this avenue could have been explored a little further. So, here is your chance, hook both the pickup and the driver coils in parallel and post your readings and results comparing the driver alone and the pickup/driver in parallel (definitely not series). It could even help with the switching woes. A whole area there to explore with a very simple connection of wires...

Well spotted...welcome aboard... pete

Thanks for the welcome pete.

Yes, I am a bit of a johnny-come-lately here - I've worked my way through several pages of the thread but alas not all.

I'll try the parallel connection - I never thought of that, I was just going to ground both ends of the coil and hope that the resulting low current loop didn't cause too many problems, using the driver cct as a low-impedance load will do the same thing - it should certainly tidy-up some of the stray noise/feedback issues. An open-circuit secondary coil can result in core saturation if the primary is driven too hard, but I think (hope) you'd have to drive it really hard for that to be a problem here.

As an aside, I'm currently using the trusted LM386 amplifier to drive it, but I am also developing a Class-D amplifier (kind of inspired by the sustainiac patent - but without the deliberate errors ) - the prototype works okay on the bench, but it's too big to fit inside a guitar cavity - I'm going to investigate using a switch-mode psu control chip for this sometime, (circuit-wise it's basically the same thing), which will drastically reduce the cct board size. If it works I'll post it here.

dean©

[tcdk]

Well.. the amp ain't working.

Will try to poll-twist some of the capacitors, think it could be one of them.

I can see at pictures of other Ruby's, that the 100uF capacitor on pin 7, is a ceramic type. The one I use is a electrolytic.

Not sure if that would do any different?

[darqdean]

Well.. the amp ain't working.

Will try to poll-twist some of the capacitors, think it could be one of them.

I can see at pictures of other Ruby's, that the 100uF capacitor on pin 7, is a ceramic type. The one I use is a electrolytic.

Not sure if that would do any different?

The value of the cap on pin 7 will not stop the device working - it is only a supply filter for the I/P stage of the amplifier to prevent the output from affecting the input through the supply line. The ceramic type you have seen in the "standard" Ruby is 100nF, not 100uF (a 100uF ceramic would be as big as a car!) - in principle the larger the value the better.

It will work without a capacitor fitted to pin-7 so if you suspect this cap then remove it.

The same is true with the R-C network between pins 1 and 8 - the circuit will work without these, so if the amp still isn't working, unsolder one of these components.

hope this helps...

[DCobb]

Kool, you've been a great help so far I'm going to try and build a circuit over the summer that will be able to *hopefully* switch the pickup attatched to the sustainer from middle to bridge when the sustainer is on, so if you have an hss layout you can get the sustainer sound on different types of pickup (if that's in any way possible ) and I have a *possible* solution to the 'pop' problem, don't know if that's what you just described. It could be possible to add a killswitch into the switch that turns the sustainer off that briefly cuts the connection from the jack as the switch is flicked then reconnects when it it fully turned off. Would this work? If not the other solution is having a killswitch on the guitar and using it when you're going to turn the sustainer off? xD Ignore me if that's nonsense, I don't rly know what I'm talking about, I just want to take part and maybe learn something eventually

[psw]

I just want to take part and maybe learn something eventually

That's the attitude...but don't get too ambitious beyond your skill level or what can actually be done...

And thanks darqdean for answering that question...your help will be invaluable...especially when my connection seemed to be lost for a bit there...

Ok...so it is time to repeat this fantastic FREE software and sustainer link for those that have missed it before...

DIY Layout Creator

Not only a fabulous piece of extremely easy to use electronics layout designer...it can render to JPG and then posted via photobucket or whatever to the thread. Also, it was specifically created for and inspired by Aron's stompbox forum...so it has a huge range of Layouts for guitar effects. You need the software and to download the circuits to view them and only works for PC.

However, bancika (the creator) was here and actually built one of these and and posted a very nice Sustainer Tutorial and so his version of the fetzer/ruby amp is available as a download plus pictorial of his project.

The sustainer is quite hard to do, but the circuit is simple. The difference is that we are dealing with electomagnetic forces and the physical instrument and string vibrations, not simply signal processing. This makes it pretty unique and so a lot less understood and experimental.

As I stated earlier, this project really can open your mind up to a lot of ideas and concepts integral to the electric guitar (pickups, wiring, how strings vibrate, how amplifiers and circuits work, etc) as well as fundumental concepts that we tend to take for granted but use everyday (magnets, electro-magnetics, circuits, power, wiring, EMI, coils, manufacturing, materials, etc). It is a challenge and there are limits as always, and as always with DIY especially a lot of what can be achieved is to do with acquiring skill and knowledge and meeting challenges with perseverance.

That being said, you have a bit of an idea there with the killswitch thing...but still not a solution or entirely satisfactory. The idea of the electronic switching is that you use circuitry to make however many connections you need to switch by applying a small voltage to components. So, a simple switch that sends a control voltage will switch a bank of electronic switches to do the more complicated stuff that mechanical switches are struggling with. Further, capacitors store and so can delay energy, so these could be used to stagger slightly in time how they switch on and off sequentially...if you follow. So, potentially yes, you could have this tiny delay where the pop would have occured. There is still the potential for the fundamental problem to exist. If it is stored energy in the coil that discharges causing a spike when it is connected back into circuit with the amp, unless this is drained away a delay in switching may simply delay the pop. This is why I don't feel like getting to much into it at the moment. Not only would I have to learn a whole new circuitry concept, design it after I work out what it is I actually need it to do...I may still be left with the same problem if I can't find a way to drain it. But there are unknowns and a lot of assumptions there too.

Now...the basis of my design is a thin coil which I believe exhibit properties that allow the thing to work from very small compact simple amplifier circuits. Susatiniac and co have used various multicoil strategies and these have become increasingly popular and work like a reverse humbucker to cancel out EMI radiation. Fresh fizz has used one in his successful version that is a rail style driver with two side by side coils rwrp. It is possible that such a design addresses the pop issue some too in that if current is stored in the coils, presumably they would be fairly equal and opposite and so the pop two may be canceled out to a large extent.

The amount this "pop" (usually only on turning off the device, not off or the harmonic switching) is really up to you.

I'm going to try and build a circuit over the summer that will be able to *hopefully* switch the pickup attatched to the sustainer from middle to bridge when the sustainer is on, so if you have an hss layout you can get the sustainer sound on different types of pickup (if that's in any way possible tongue.gif)

This is unlikely to be possible, and certainly not with my simple single coil thin driver design. It is also not as desirable as you may think and does not really open up the range of the thing as much as you think. Way too much EMI comes out of practically any driver (so far) to allow for this. The middle pickup will always be way to close without using ver sophisticated driver designs. The main reason is that EMI is what makes this thing go effectively. Reducing EMI to zero would be like designing a pickup that canceled all sound...so quiet it hears nothing at all (entirely possible but just silly...right).

However, asking why I can't do something is the name of the game. Sometimes it comes down to approach and ideas, sometimes to skills and available materials and the ability to work them...sometimes all the wishing in the world doesn't seem to help. For instance, here is a mid driver design of mine...

Very cool, right. The intention of this was to replace the middle pickup with this dual rail driver that could run from the neck or bridge. Why...because it means I no longer need the complicated bypass switching...side benefit you can use bridge or neck pickup of combinations with the sustainer on. But of course, only if it is successful. It did work a bit but not good enough and the amount of thought and specialized skills required was significant. I also found that the ability to change pickup selections not that much of a benefit and I lost a whole pickup in the process and the closeness the driver needed to be to the strings because of it's very tight EMI field got in the way of playing the thing...ultimately why I abandoned this.

You have to be prepared to fail and put things aside in this game. I then turned around and designed the ultra thin coil illustrated above, new manufacturing ideas and concepts that built on the original successful "piggyback" driver from years earlier posted above, which is kind of where I am at. I did catch the bi-lateral bug and have two versions tested in the mid position of a tele that I have yet to post pictures or talk about. But even this has problems similar to that of the previsou mid driver (though the concept is similar...sometime you just don't want to let things go).

Anyway....rambling, but to be fair it is 5:30 am* here! Better go back to bed for a while more I think...hope this is interesting.

pete

however I couldn't post it till 11am because my ISP is playing up...grrrr

Edited May 3, 2008 by psw

[DCobb]

Hmm, it appears the kind of work needed to make commercial sustainer technology more feasible is quite large then. Maybe this explains why Fender, Gibson and the like haven't capitalised on it, cause they're lazy Do you think it could eventually be possible to run a sustainer in any of the currently 'impossible' scenarios with enough experimentation?

[psw]

Hmm, it appears the kind of work needed to make commercial sustainer technology more feasible is quite large then. Maybe this explains why Fender, Gibson and the like haven't capitalised on it, cause they're lazy Do you think it could eventually be possible to run a sustainer in any of the currently 'impossible' scenarios with enough experimentation?

Well...I have spent 4 years trying and a lot of others are trying. CurtisA has done a great looking one in the manner of the sustainiac and I have seen pics, written to and got a sound clip of a first class mid pickup driver, so to some extent it works. Similarly, I have got them to "work" but no where near commercial quality or as good or as versitile as a more conventional approach. Much of the very early pages were on pure development with at least a year solely concentrating on a miniture hex driver design for which there are many pics. Similarly, we went through a stage of devising "stick-on" boxes, usually behind the bridge, but the internal wiring modifications such that you may as well install it completely.

I don't think the sustainer is not developed out of lazyness but return on considerable development. Even if they made their own version, what realistically is the market to produce such sounds. Floyd Rose had one and owns a patent, but that was short lived. It is often seen and to some extent maybe it is, a gimmick. For instance the eBow has been around a long time but you rarely really hear it featured and there are no famous tracks featuring the thing really (maybe "big country" back in the day).

Sustain really went out the window with shreading where speedy staccato lines were the order of the day, to which the sustainer really has no benefit. Vai has one live, but I don't recall anything recorded with it. U2 has the highset profile with the track "still haven't found what I am looking for" but quite a few people probably think of it as a synth. In truth, a lot of these effects could be done easier with a synth of course.

On the other hand, it is incredibly fun to play and extremely expressive,,,that alone makes it worthwhile for those who want to have one. The ability to use other pickups is really very minor and doesn't detract from what you can do with it.

An ideal platform in my opinion would be something like the Variax which has no magnetic pickups and onboard power. On the other hand, it has a lot of digital power and likely to increase over time and so enable other techniques like sample and hold. Not as expressive, but my DD5 boss delay has such a function...but again, so much power these days but most of it rarely heard.

If a "breakthrough" were to come, it is likely to come from experimenters and this thread is it as far as that is concerned...that is why I keep encouraging people to take what I can further and add to the discussion. Like may of the project guitars here, they point the way for the bigger companies...on the other hand they equally confirm how much these guys have got it right. Of designs that aren't direct copies or derivitives, few of the original designs are improvements or have the wide appeal of a commercial proposition. Counter this with the bass guys (check out the GOTM entries lately) where extra strings and array of designs, scale lengths, pickups and electronics are featured and readily accepted. Guitar players are notoriously conservative and the fenders and gibsons have really defined the instrument I suspect.

anyway...better run...

pete

[psw]

Look what I found in the players corner...

Hi! My name is Augusto, and I'm from Italy.

I wish to thank you all, especially PSW and his "sustainer monster-thread". I have just finished my sustainer and simply would like you to take a look at my first test, sorry for the bad quality:

video_sample

I used an old Maasaki guitar. Is a very bad '80s Les Paul copy, but works really fine to me!

Thank you all again!

I don't know if I have ever spoken to head or he has posted on here (I think not) but great to see someone do this on their own. It can do a lot more than this clip would indicate, but a little tweaking and adapting technique and you should be getting very long sustained notes and such. I really need to learn how to make video and stuff for you tube myself...

well done...pete

[Dirge for november]

Hey, it's me again! I've finally taken apart my first guitar, and have taken a picture of the ex-middle pickup, which I now want to make a driver out of. I want to be sure if this pickup is suitable for the deed:

Also another question, say I want to rig up my guitar before the sustainer circuit is done, is it possible to use push pull pots without using the switching function (as if they where normal pots)? And is it easy to add the sustainer circuit later on in the process?

[Dirge for november]

PS(w) This is the wiring I wan't to use, with the second push pull pot regulating the amount of sustain. http://www.guitarsupplies.nl this site has quite a lot of different push pull pots, which ones are suitable for use?

Thanks in advance!

[psw]

say I want to rig up my guitar before the sustainer circuit is done

Well, I have said it before and will say it again...this is highly inadvisable to modify the guitar or get to ahead in this project until it is built and tested successfully.

Now...are we still talking about a single bridge pickup and a neck position driver only...I went back through some posts but the plans and those of others seem to change and get mixed about a bit...hard for me to keep up.

Last you were asking about the use of the selector, then a 4pdt 3 three way switch. I am a little confused however, was it you asking whether this could be used in the mid position, or was that someone else?

Anyway...that pickup would be suitable but would be destroyed in the modification. You could remove the magnet under it to build stand a lone driver or find a broken pickup, perhaps in a local music shop.

If only using a bridge pickup and a driver (no pickup function) in the neck, then a push pull might do it, in which case a value equivalent to that taken out (usually a 500kA (for HB's) or 250kA (for SC's) for the volume and tone controls. If you are thinking of using a third control for sensitivity you will find it hard to get the right value, which depends on your circuit design anyway. My latest uses a 1k pot which I have modified push pull pots with the guts of a suitable and mechanically identical pot to get the correct value. Not for the faint of heart and expensive and risky.

To save costs and disappointment, everything should be tested with standard components outside of the guitar. An on/off switch could simply be removing the battery for instance...the driver could be held above the strings away from the pickups.

This is still what I do myself even though I have a fair amount of experience with the things and know a little as to what to expect.

If you or anyone else is considering a multi-pickup installation there is no suitable push-pull pot with the switching power needed. Also, if anyone considering a mid position driver, a driver of the type I generally promote and have the most experience with definitely wont work. It is likely that even the circuit will need to be more sophisticated, but especially the driver design will need some very clever and ongoing work. In four years I have never really got this to work though I believe it "could" be done, no one else has succeeded yet.

This is the wiring I wasn't to use, with the second push pull pot regulating the amount of sustain.

I don't see any wiring schematic...but I can see that none of these pots as explained above will work with the fetzer/ruby in this function. In fact it is probably more practical to control gain with an internal trim pot with the basic sustainer and not have such a control anyway. I have one on my original but never needed it...it is largely touch sensitive and controlled by picking strength and damping as well as other techniques...to control the sustain.

You can rig the guitar up with replacement push pull pots for volume and tone but I would hold up any modifications till you have been able to succeed with the device to the testing phase. Blind faith will not suffice and many have failed. It seems those most likely to fail get way to ahead of things and concern themselves with the wish list over the actual working prototype...switching and installation is the very last thing you should work on until you have something to switch...not trying to be rude or anything.

here is a quote from fresh fizz regarding his successful sustainer...

The lesson I learned is: avoid any distortion and use strong compression and listen to Pete's advice

We posted for months before he conceded to this idea...that is fine, and he found his own way. All I can offer is advice from what I have learned and observed over a very long time from others in this massive thread. Other's too have found that if they had taken my advice in the first place, they would have arrived at something that worked (or not) with a lot less fuss...even when eventually they may, as FF did, find their own solutions. Many of the innovators have taken where I have suggested and gone further after trying this or a variation for themselves, most of these people still have used the testing methods suggested throughout before complicating things further wit installation problems and close EMI problems involved with installation. Frankly, installation issues are for me the hardest part and not one that I have conclusive solutions too...generally I don't seem to have much problem getting something that works, but getting it to work practically in the guitar or asking a little more of it than it can give (easy installation or mid driver position) that I fail.

Anyway...I hope this advice is taken on board and helps...

pete

[Dirge for november]

Hello Pete, thanks again for the reply! I'll have to go through it a couple of times more later!

What I meant with the first part (rigging it up before it's done) I actually meant hook up the pickups etc. so I can hear what my pickup sounds like, and adding the sustainer circuit at a later time.

Still talking about a P-90 in the bridge and a driver in the neck, no extras.

About the switch, later you advised push pull pots, so that's out of the way as far as I know.

I don't mind stripping the pickup, because it sounded crap in the first place.

The wiring diagram I was trying to post shows a p-90 with only a volume control, what I had in mind was to use what used to be the tone pot as the sustain control, but I understand that it's better to test this all beforehand. It's just an experiment, and of course I would like to keep it as simple as possible.

What I would like to use the push pull pots for (if the system works outside of the guitar in the first place) is:

1. the volume pot: sustainer on/off

2. the (ex) tone pot: Normal mode - harmonics mode

So just for the switching alone, do those pushpull pots ont that site suffice?

So i'm not sure if I read correctly, but do you say that sustain control is not exactly nececarry? that would make it possible for me to have a volume and tone pot again, which is good.

aesthetically I would prefer no switch at all, that's why I like the idea of the push pull pots.

Even if it doesn't work out in the end, it will be a fun trip, I think and my guitar will turn out for the better anyway with that p-90

Cheers

[psw]

Ok...master volume and tone of a value suggested for that pickup (generally hb's and brighter output A500k).

DPDT push pull pots like this should work for both on off function (switching on the power effectively) and the harmonic switch.

Strip the wire from the pickup and make spacers to leave 3mm at the top part of the bobbin. Use 0.2mm enamel insulated copper wire and pot as you go with PVA just as in the pictorial of mine linked below. Use a multimeter to work out the resistance, don't rely on counting turns.

There may be an advantage to having in addition to the sustainer circuit a buffer or preamp on the output of the whole guitar...but lets not complicate things.

Good Luck... pete