rhoads56 Posted May 26, 2004 Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 Quarter sawn and flat sawn are determined as the grain direction, relative to the working FACE of the timber. The end user determines the FACE of the timber, not the miller. So, you can have a piece of timber that is 5" wide, and 1" thick, with flat sawn grain (face being 5" wide), which is exactly the same as a piece of timber thats 1" wide, and 5" thick, with grain that is quarter sawn (face being 1" wide). They would both be the exact same piece of timber. Cutting a flat sawn wide board into three, and rotating each piece 90 degrees (with the axis being the length of the timber, so the cuts are now the faces), then flipping the centre piece (end for end), is how you make a laminated, quarter sawn neck, from a flat sawn blank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmmr Posted May 26, 2004 Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 hi everybody, i've been watching the forum for some time but this is my first post here, anyway in regard to this discussion, i've read in the hiscock book that laminating the neck the way rhoads56 described does indeed provide better stability *but* if the blanks all come from the same log and it shows a tendency to warp this won't help since all of the blanks will probably also warp, is this inconsistent with the flatsawn-flip-it-and-you-get-quartersawn theory? my two cents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehardcrew Posted May 26, 2004 Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 Oh man I can't believe this discussion is still going on. Please read my post again. You're both right. When you guys bring up your theories, you start talking about only the end pieces or the ideal cut. There are few ideal cuts per log. Please keep in mind that whether its flatsawn, quartersawn or riftsawn (which fyi I was not talking about before), there are "ideal pieces" and "less than ideal pieces". I will say it again. The ideal pieces laid on edge will effectively be interchangeable (quartersawn=flatsawn on edge), BUT NOT EXACTLY THE SAME BECAUSE WE'RE NOT DEALING WITH SQUARES AND LINES, they are circles. The less than ideal pieces laid on edge will be less and less interchangeable, meaning, you can't lay an end piece of flatsawn on edge and get quartersawn. Regarding how quartersawn is made; yes, you do understand it correctly in that it would "have to be cut like a wedge", BUT they are kept straight and not wedgelike. I know that sounds confusing, but how you're cutting is the right idea, but just imagine them cutting straight (not wedgelike) boards as close as they can to the "wedge" orientation, and you'll understand that there is more waste when logs are sawn that way, which is why its more expensive. Please, this is simple geometry, and the argument is moot anyhow because the argument really isn't whether it's theoretically exact quartersawn, we just want to know that it's more stable and better for necks, right? That's all we care about anyhow is building guitars right?????? So perhaps we can all agree that whether or not you understand exactly what the lumbermills are doing, we can agree that if you choose nice, tight, straight grained wood, without heavy thick curvy grain (meaning it's from an end piece of the sawing) you can laminate them and get a great, stable and strong neck that is effectively quartersawn. Happy building! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted May 26, 2004 Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 hi everybody, i've been watching the forum for some time but this is my first post here, anyway in regard to this discussion, i've read in the hiscock book that laminating the neck the way rhoads56 described does indeed provide better stability *but* if the blanks all come from the same log and it shows a tendency to warp this won't help since all of the blanks will probably also warp, is this inconsistent with the flatsawn-flip-it-and-you-get-quartersawn theory? my two cents Cutting a piece into mulitples, and laminateing it back together, is stronger than the original piece was. Laminates are harder to bend, although they can warp (to a lesser extent) just as the original piece could. If you flip every second piece, the forces (when it tries to warp) fight against each other, somewhat cancelling each other out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarageRocker Posted May 26, 2004 Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 this is a difference in beliefs....not a nicefest or a getpissedoff fest... your job is to convince me and everyone else through facts I presented facts from an industry bible backed by the largest wood research organization in the world. You can ignore them if you wish. I'm not trying to convince anyone, just to correct your misinformation. People are free to believe what they wish. Of course, the boards in the pic on that .pdf are just representations, but take a look at the quartersawn board's appearance. I don't care how many flatsawn laminations you stack, it's not going to look like that. There are a few places in your average log where a flatsawn board could be exactly 90 degrees off a quartersawn board. But as a rule they are not sawn that way. And that also should be apparent from the drawing and the written description. But don't just go by a drawing. Go to a lumber dealer who carries true quartersawn stock. Start flipping flatsawn boards 90 degrees and see if you get the same grain as a quartersawn board. You won't. there is alot of bad advice going around the site lately,so if you think my suggestion results in a less stable and strong neck,then tell me how I thought I made it clear -- twice -- that I believe lamination would make a neck more stable. I guess you'd have to define "strong" further, because laminating by itself doesn't necessarily make a neck stiffer, but it certainly won't make a neck weaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarageRocker Posted May 26, 2004 Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 Quarter sawn and flat sawn are determined as the grain direction, relative to the working FACE of the timber. The end user determines the FACE of the timber, not the miller. If it pleases you to define it that way, go right ahead. But in the lumber industry, it is defintely determined by how it is sawn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted May 26, 2004 Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 it seems like we are arguing about a definition of a word here... but you can get the exact same grain orientation of a quartersawn board by flipping a good piece of flatsawn...of course you do need to choose your wood well... but it is the grain orientation that makes the difference in strength...not which part of the log it is cut from there once was a great picture on the site that shows it perfectly...but i cannot find it the pdf picture is lacking in quality anyway...all that aside...that is still how it is done in the guitar industry for laminated necks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted May 26, 2004 Report Share Posted May 26, 2004 by the way garagerocker...welcome to the forum.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpa Posted May 27, 2004 Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 Here is a pic of how a quartersawn board is cut from a log: http://www.guitartips.addr.com/tip86.html Start flipping flatsawn boards 90 degrees and see if you get the same grain as a quartersawn board. You won't. I agree Flatsawn = quartersawn only when the flatsawn board is from the center of the log. All those flatsawn boards cut outside of the center will have angled end grain sections. The true quartersawn has almost straight end grain right across the thickness of the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted May 27, 2004 Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 for my necks the board "depth" is only about 3 inches before i cut it(after lamination)...after i cut the neck(obviously)it is less than 1" thick... the grain is almost perfectly straight up and down...and the very slight angle is countered by the opposite side of the board.. but i very carefully pick my flatsawn boards for my necks...and the grain is quite straight i don't think anyone ever suggested taking just any old board...looking for straight endgrain is part of the process Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmmr Posted May 27, 2004 Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 wes, was this the image you were looking for? it seems that if we flip the flatsawn board on it's side the compression ratios will match the ones on a quartersawn board. this sounds kinda weird but it does stand to reason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted May 27, 2004 Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 that is not the one i was thinking of but it is quite a good example thank you for finding it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibum5545 Posted May 27, 2004 Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 now we have RIFTSAWN to deal with too?!! Actually, that's a very good diagram. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehardcrew Posted May 27, 2004 Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 I'm starting to think no one can see my posts but me. I'm glad you guys are finally starting to figure out what I said a while back. It was interesting to see you guys figure it out on your own rather than just read my posts. Maybe my posts didn't make sense, I'll have to work on that. More likely they're invisible. Yes, good pics, but again, those are examples of ideal cuts of quartersawn and center pieces of plainsawn. It does vary. I only said this about 10 posts ago. Oh well, I'm going to have to assume that no one can see this but me. So excuse me if someone else can see this because I'm going to start talking to myself from my sudden feeling of loneliness. Hi how are me? I'm fine, thanks how are me? Me's fine too thanks. What are me going to do today? Well, I luckily have today and tomorrow off, so I may finally start working on my 5 string thunda bassosaurus rex, or I may do the "right" thing and catch up on some house projects. Oh that's cool, what kind of house projects do you have to do? Well there's almost too many to list, but I think if the weather holds up, I should probably work outside and either finish the wall around the patio, I could brick the grilling area, or even set up to route all the custom molding I have to do. Wow, I hope you can finish all that stuff in the next few days. Yeah me too, not to mention the darn electrical projects I have inside. There are still a lot of old cloth-wrapped wires in my old house, and they're not the easiest to get at. perhaps I should start my own forum for old house projects and stuff. Yeah I thought of that, but when I tried loading that one forum on my website you got all sorts of SQL errors, what's up with that. Not sure. Hey, by the way lets say there might be someone who could possibly see this, do you think we're boring the living daylights out of them? I really highly doubt that anyone can actually see my posts, but if they can then yes most definitely we're boring them to death. We shall stop now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbkim Posted May 27, 2004 Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 Did someone just say something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truerussian558 Posted May 27, 2004 Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 nah its probably just the wind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddler68 Posted May 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 Who started this infernal thread anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddler68 Posted May 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 Yes, it appears this is merely an issue of semantics. I think my question was answered ad nauseum. I doubt I'll scour the globe specifically looking for 'true' quartersawn lumber just to satisfy a diagram in a magazine. I will trust my instincts and start cutting this weekend. Thanks all for the lively volleys. I hope to post some pics in the near future. Wish me luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted May 27, 2004 Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 I'm starting to think no one can see my posts but me. I'm glad you guys are finally starting to figure out what I said a while back you had no diagrams...so you think when you speak that your take on it should end the discussion without diagrams or any kind of background on you or your experience level? don't take this the wrong way but i think your ego may be healthier than my own Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehardcrew Posted May 27, 2004 Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 Oh rejoice!!! I am NOT invisible!! ...and to think I just ran around my neighborhood naked because I thought I was. Oh man, what will the neighbors think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted May 27, 2004 Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 Oh rejoice!!! I am NOT invisible!! ...and to think I just ran around my neighborhood naked because I thought I was. Oh man, what will the neighbors think? my guess is you are like the guy in that movie who was invisible as long as no one was looking at him... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibum5545 Posted May 27, 2004 Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 You mean in Mystery Men? That was an AMAZING movie!! I especially loved The Spleen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted May 27, 2004 Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 You mean in Mystery Men? yup...i like jeneane garrafallo(or however you spell it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddler68 Posted May 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2004 Hands off, Wes. She's mine. (Although I'm sure my wife would disagree.) Personally, I like Mr. FURIOUS!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddler68 Posted June 1, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 Got another wood grain question. I bought a 3/4" plank of Padouk/Padauk/Paduak, however the hell you spell it and it looks to be true quartersawn. Didn't realize until I got it home. I want to use it as thin (.125 - .250) laminates between some hard maple. The rest of my wood is flatsawn and I'm turning in 90°, so what do I do with the Padouk? Should I cut strips and stack and glue them and then cut my slices, or should I just take the piece back and look for something more flatsawn? Or... will I be OK just ignoring it and treating it like the rest of my wood and turn it 90°? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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