Went out of the saddle space

[Amorphis]

Hello everyone! This is my first time posting here.

I have checked the projectguitar.com and I haven't found anything about my problem yet.

I use Jackson guitar with 11-52 gauge Blue Steel strings. Originally the guitar came with the set of 9-42, tuned on E. I have my guitar tuned on D, with floyd tremolo set in line with the guitar body.

I have a problem with the intonation. The saddle of the lowest D string is moved as far from the neck as possible and it is still a tiny bit sharp. All others are very nice set and there's still some room to place the saddle a bit further from the neck.

This strange issue is killing me for half a year. I have tightened the truss rod, till it wasn't almost completely tightened (when tightening, some noise produced during the job, so I loosened just a bit, so I made it sure). What can I do? Should I change string gauge? I really like 11-52, because smaller gauge is too floppy for me in D.

Others tell me to screw out the truss rod, lay my guitar on a desk with front panel, lift the neck a bit and then starting to screwing the tross rod back in while holding the body down and pulling the neck towards me (gently).

I am a bit sceptic about the last suggestion, even though it sounds like a wise advice.

Thanks a lot!

[Hardtailed]

Ishhh, if the action is correct, go easy with the truss rod! It's not made to for scale compensation, it's there to adjust the "bow" of the neck.

[Devon Headen]

The only ways I see to fix it are to ( a ) move the bridge back a little bit (since it's FR it'd be even more of a pain than something like a TOM--not really a viable option), ( b ) change string guage, or ( c ) tune standard. Other than that, you could sell the guitar and try other guitars of the same model and see if you can get them to intonate correctly, or just settle for slightly out of tune leadwork.

[Brian]

The best option if you can do it would be to drill and tap a new hold down for the saddle in the base plate of the trem.

Oh and welcome to the forum Amorphis

[hy_dro66]

How high is your action? If you some room to lower it, that will help. If you still can't get it, do what brian said. It's easy to do.

[Amorphis]

The best option if you can do it would be to drill and tap a new hold down for the saddle in the base plate of the trem.

Oh and welcome to the forum Amorphis

If I'm honest, this has crossed my mind just yesterday night.

But the hole has to be very accurate, otherwise the saddle wont fit.

[Amorphis]

How high is your action?  If you some room to lower it, that will help.  If you still can't get it, do what brian said.  It's easy to do.

My action is maybe higher than most people would like. I want every string to speak for it self, since I don't like fret buzzing much.

I've tried to lower it to minimum, but nothing happens.

[Devon Headen]

The best option if you can do it would be to drill and tap a new hold down for the saddle in the base plate of the trem.

Oh and welcome to the forum Amorphis

I don't quite understand this...can someone explain it a little better to me? I guess I need to look at a Floyd, too. Barely any experience with them.

[hy_dro66]

If you look at a floyd you can easily see that each saddle is held down with a hex head bolt. When one is loosened it allows the saddle to shorten or lengthen the string. If you move the saddle all the way back until it hits the bolt then you will have the most string compensation. If you need more then you can drill a hole further back and tap it so the travel is shifted further from the nut. You'll see if you look closely.

[Dr. Jabsco]

sounds like the buzz fietin thing may help a little. It makes it really easy to get correct intonation. It may help get that string back on track.

www.buzzfeiten.com

[Amorphis]

Anyone has the picture of feiten's nut? What do I have to change besides the nut?

Do I have to drill new holes in the neck?

[hy_dro66]

Buzz feiten system requires some very precise measurements and cutting off part of the fretboard at the nut. I suggest the Earvana Nut. I installed one yesterday and it is very easy compared to Buzz system and requires no moding of the guitar. It looks different but works great! Here's a link.

Earvana Nut

[hy_dro66]

Actually, since you have a floyd it might not be the best. They don't make a locking one.

[Black Mariah]

The truss rod changes scale length along with relief. It's a very slight change, but it can make a difference. Knowing this will go a long way towards understanding why setups aren't a 'by the numbers' thing.

The action is completely unrelated to the truss rod. You shouldn't use the truss rod as a component of string height adjustment.

On a Jackson, or any other 'modern' type guitar with a flat fingerboard radius, you don't need any relief in the neck. The only reason relief is necessary in the first place is because older guitars with rounder fingerboards have a tendency to fret out when bending. A flatter radius takes care of this problem.

Tuning to standard won't help. Using different string gauges won't help. More correctly they will cover up the problem, but they are NOT fixes. They're bandaids, and nothing more. A properly setup guitar will work with any gauge strings in any tuning.

I very much doubt that the trem is in the wrong spot. For it to make that much of a difference, it would have to be NOTICEABLY wonky. Even then, I've seen guitars where the trem was obviously out of whack that intonated just fine.

---

I'm thinking it's one of two things. Either your saddle is very worn, which is easily noticeable when you change strings, or you have a fret issue. Yeah, frets. If the 12th fret is low, your intonation will be off. Since you use high action, the possibility of having a low fret without any buzzing is increased. Check the 12th fret area with a straightedge. Also, check the saddle for signs of wear.

Man, I hate giving setup advice when I can't see the guitar.

[Devon Headen]

If the 12th fret is low, your intonation will be off.

I never thought about that. I'm having some problems intonating one of my guitars, and I think I just figured out how to fix it

[rhoads56]

The truss rod changes scale length along with relief.

The action is completely unrelated to the truss rod. You shouldn't use the truss rod as a component of string height adjustment.

A flatter radius takes care of this problem.

Tuning to standard won't help. Using different string gauges won't help. More correctly they will cover up the problem, but they are NOT fixes. They're bandaids, and nothing more. A properly setup guitar will work with any gauge strings in any tuning.

I very much doubt that the trem is in the wrong spot. For it to make that much of a difference, it would have to be NOTICEABLY wonky. Even then, I've seen guitars where the trem was obviously out of whack that intonated just fine.

---

I'm thinking it's one of two things. Either your saddle is very worn, which is easily noticeable when you change strings, or you have a fret issue. Yeah, frets. If the 12th fret is low, your intonation will be off. Since you use high action, the possibility of having a low fret without any buzzing is increased. Check the 12th fret area with a straightedge. Also, check the saddle for signs of wear.

Man, I hate giving setup advice when I can't see the guitar.

This thread deserves TWO bad advice certificates.

You clearly have absolutely NO IDEA what you are talking about.

The truss rod is only there to counteract the neck bending under string tension. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the length of the strings, or the scale length.

You then stated...

"The action is completely unrelated to the truss rod. You shouldn't use the truss rod as a component of string height adjustment."

What a total load of absolute BS! The truss rod straightens the neck, and can be used to add relief to the fretboard playing surface. Action is TOTALLY related to the truss rod. Without adjusting a truss rod perfectly, you will have a guitar that can never be set up "correctly", regardless of the type of music played (bar slide only). Of course, you do not use the truss rod as the ONLY method of settingthe string action, but it is very definately a part of the setting of that action.

You then said...

"A flatter radius takes care of this problem."

Thanks for the unrelated comments, why did you post this?? What has it got to do with the original question, which was about intonation?? A flat fretboard radius may allow for higher string bends, but that does not mean it is better than a fretboard with more radius on it. You are being totally niave now.

You then started ranting about string guages and tuning pitch. You, once again, are totally incorrect, and have no idea what you are talking about. The lower the pitch of tuning, the more intonation is required.

You then started carrying on about the bridge being wonky... ***?? who said it was wonky?? Why did you say this?? Ive seen MANY MANY guitars that needed bridges moved (Gibson in particular) because they were placed in the wrong spot, or the saddles simply couldnt accomodate the players desired setup (large string guage, low tuning for example, as this poster wants!)

You then start to tell us what is wrong with the saddles. PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW A WORN SADDLE EFFECTS THE INTONATED STRING LENGTH. It doesnt, it is impossible. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

In the very same paragraph, you state you think the 12th fret is low. I HAVE NEVER SEEN A 12th FRET THAT IS LOWER THAN THE REST. How do you expalin this happening?? How does ONE FRET in the middle of the fret board, become lower than the rest?? What has that got to do with the original posters question, even if it was possible?? A lower fret will show up as buzzing, not an intonation problem. Once again, your talking about something totally unrelated. Why is that, are you trying to sound like you know what your talking about??

You then had the NERVE, to post this:

"Man, I hate giving setup advice when I can't see the guitar. "

I suspect you have NEVER EVER even seen a guitar AT ALL. Your opinions are so very wrong, you are dillusional. Please stop posting until you know what your talking about, we are all sick of amatuers giving incorrect advice.

[Devon Headen]

Perry strikes again . Most of his info seemed rather unrelated to me, so I was going to leave it alone. After thinking about it (duh) I don't see what a worn 12 fret will have to do with intonating improperly. I'm hoping (probably irrationally), that my problem was caused by EXTREME shift in temp/humidity. Intonation was perfect at home, then I went to a gig at about 100 degrees and probably 80-90% humidity and my high E was having the same problem as the original poster.

[rhoads56]

Perry strikes again . Most of his info seemed rather unrelated to me, so I was going to leave it alone. After thinking about it (duh) I don't see what a worn 12 fret will have to do with intonating improperly. I'm hoping (probably irrationally), that my problem was caused by EXTREME shift in temp/humidity. Intonation was perfect at home, then I went to a gig at about 100 degrees and probably 80-90% humidity and my high E was having the same problem as the original poster.

Wood expands and contracts depending on temperature and humidity. Different woods expand and contract at different rates, and finishes slow down this effect.

[Devon Headen]

That's why I mentioned it, but would this effect the scale length temporarily? I guess I need to just go check the guitar now.

[rhoads56]

It may may effect the string action more than anything. Eg: the raw fretboard will absord more moisture, and expand, in humid conditions. The lacquered back of the neck wont take in any moisture, and stay where it is. So, the neck will back bow. The thinner the neck, the more of a problem it is.

[www]

Rhoads56 thank you for helping to correct the earlier erroneous suggestions. That was some sad BS posted.

[westhemann]

man i haven't read this topic in days....i am just in stunned disbelief that someone could post such a pile of misinformation in such a matter of fact tone

when talking about truss rod setup and action it is so highly critical to give good advice...

it almost seems as if this person is posting deliberate misinformation

[Devon Headen]

I checked the guitar, and it's still screwed up a little bit. On the b string, the saddle is all the way at the neck position and it's barely off (can't hear it by ear). The high e is all the way foward, too, and it's off enough to barely tell by ear. Not too bad, but I'm confused, because as of last week it intonated perfect with tons of room to spare .

[Black Mariah]

rhoads56: Let's take your criticisms point by point, shall we?

Like I said, adjusting the truss rod doesn't change the scale much, but it does. It's a very slight change, but it's there. You can see this for yourself. Set up a guitar to have no relief, set your string height, then set the intonation. Now add some relief, set the string height to the same, and check your intonation again. It'll be close, but definitely off. It's a very slight change, but it's there and it's important to know this.

You're partially right on the point about the truss rod being related to string height. I should have been more specific. I will now point out that this advice is for JACKSONS and not Fenders or similar vintage-style guitars. Jacksons need straight necks, no relief, and so the truss rod should not factor into string height at all.

"A flatter radius takes care of this problem."

Thanks for the unrelated comments, why did you post this?? What has it got to do with the original question, which was about intonation?? A flat fretboard radius may allow for higher string bends, but that does not mean it is better than a fretboard with more radius on it. You are being totally niave now.

And you're being a jerk for no particular reason. No, this isn't related to intonation but it IS related to why a Jackson needs no relief. Excuse the hell out of me for feeling compelled to explain why something works a certain way instead of just saying "Make the board flat" and moving on.

The lower the pitch of tuning, the more intonation is required.

When did I ever say it wasn't? I do believe I said "A properly setup guitar will work with any gauge strings in any tuning." A proper setup means that from nut height to intonation adjustment to string height, EVERYTHING is set up PERFECTLY. As long as you don't have any hardware problems, you can set up a guitar for any tuning with any gauge strings. There is nothing special about standard tuning that means guitars only work with that. It's just a tuning. Pick your tuning, pick your gauge, and set your guitar up for it. If it won't cooperate, you have a crappy guitar. End of story.

You then started carrying on about the bridge being wonky... ***?? who said it was wonky?? Why did you say this?? Ive seen MANY MANY guitars that needed bridges moved (Gibson in particular) because they were placed in the wrong spot, or the saddles simply couldnt accomodate the players desired setup (large string guage, low tuning for example, as this poster wants!)

So what you mean is that the bridge was wonky? I've also seen many guitars with the bridges in the wrong place, ESPECIALLY Jacksons (their lowest-end imports SUCK). I know what an out of place bridge looks like, and if you have one you'll know it to. The recessed routing for the tremolo (we're dealing with a Floyd Rose here, remember? Not a ToM Gibson) makes it pretty damn obvious when something is in the wrong spot.

You then start to tell us what is wrong with the saddles. PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW A WORN SADDLE EFFECTS THE INTONATED STRING LENGTH. It doesnt, it is impossible. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

And you're clearly a bigger jerk the more you post. I'll explain it like this. A FLOYD ROSE IS NOT A TUNE-O-MATIC. The string has a much longer contact area with the saddle than there is on a ToM. The area where the string breaks over the saddle eventually wears away, especially under heavy trem use. It's just like getting a false overtone from a nut. You have experienced that, right? Where the front edge of the nut is either cut wrong or has worn away so it produces an overtone? It's the exact same principle, and it WILL screw up the intonation.

In the very same paragraph, you state you think the 12th fret is low. I HAVE NEVER SEEN A 12th FRET THAT IS LOWER THAN THE REST. How do you expalin this happening?? How does ONE FRET in the middle of the fret board, become lower than the rest?? What has that got to do with the original posters question, even if it was possible?? A lower fret will show up as buzzing, not an intonation problem. Once again, your talking about something totally unrelated. Why is that, are you trying to sound like you know what your talking about??

Ummm.. did you not see where he said he used fairly high action? Are you not aware that high action does wonders to mask low frets? Do YOU have any clue what you're talking about? How could a 12th fret be lower? Umm... maybe it was ALWAYS LIKE THAT? Maybe it's worn down? Since he uses high action, the whole area around the 12th fret could use being refretted and he doesn't even know it. One of my guitars is like this. How could this affect the intonation? Seriously, you have to ask this? You have no clue how a low fret could cause intonation to be off? How about this. Low fret = virtual higher action. It may not be much, but it doesn't take much for the note to ring sharp. Also, it's nice to see that because you've never seen it that it doesn't exist. Unfortunately, I have seen it many times and know otherwise.

I suspect you have NEVER EVER even seen a guitar AT ALL. Your opinions are so very wrong, you are dillusional. Please stop posting until you know what your talking about, we are all sick of amatuers giving incorrect advice.

And I'm sick of jackasses acting like since they read the StewMac book, and have worked on a few Gibsons, they know everything. I'll tell you right now, I don't know everything. But I know Jacksons. I spent a while working for Jackson as a QC tech (right before Fender bought them), doing setups on all the guitars before they went out to the dealers. I also handled a fair amount of the warranty repairs. In my time there I estimate I handled between 7,000-8,000 Jacksons of all makes, models, points of origin, and color. I had two of the best techs you'll ever see (Kevin Easton and Reid Rogers) as my instructors, coworkers, and friends.

-----

BTW, I've seen your site and know your work and know that you know your ****. You've just overextended yourself trying to make me look like a moron.

[rhoads56]

rhoads56: Let's take your criticisms point by point, shall we?

Like I said, adjusting the truss rod doesn't change the scale much, but it does. It's a very slight change, but it's there. You can see this for yourself. Set up a guitar to have no relief, set your string height, then set the intonation. Now add some relief, set the string height to the same, and check your intonation again. It'll be close, but definitely off. It's a very slight change, but it's there and it's important to know this.

You're partially right on the point about the truss rod being related to string height. I should have been more specific. I will now point out that this advice is for JACKSONS and not Fenders or similar vintage-style guitars. Jacksons need straight necks, no relief, and so the truss rod should not factor into string height at all.

"A flatter radius takes care of this problem."

Thanks for the unrelated comments, why did you post this?? What has it got to do with the original question, which was about intonation?? A flat fretboard radius may allow for higher string bends, but that does not mean it is better than a fretboard with more radius on it. You are being totally niave now.

And you're being a jerk for no particular reason. No, this isn't related to intonation bla bla bla

The lower the pitch of tuning, the more intonation is required.

When did I ever say it wasn't? I do believe I said "A properly setup guitar will work with any gauge strings in any tuning." bla bla bla bla There is nothing special about standard tuning that means guitars only work with that. It's just a tuning. Pick your tuning, pick your gauge, and set your guitar up for it. If it won't cooperate, you have a crappy guitar. End of story.

So what you mean is that the bridge was wonky? I've also seen many guitars with the bridges in the wrong place, ESPECIALLY Jacksons (their lowest-end imports SUCK). I know what an out of place bridge looks like, and if you have one you'll know it to. The recessed routing for the tremolo (we're dealing with a Floyd Rose here, remember? Not a ToM Gibson) makes it pretty damn obvious when something is in the wrong spot.

You then start to tell us what is wrong with the saddles. PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW A WORN SADDLE EFFECTS THE INTONATED STRING LENGTH. It doesnt, it is impossible. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

And you're clearly a bigger jerk the more you post. I'll explain it like this. A FLOYD ROSE IS NOT A TUNE-O-MATIC. The string has a much longer contact area with the saddle than there is on a ToM. The area where the string breaks over the saddle eventually wears away, especially under heavy trem use. It's just like getting a false overtone from a nut. You have experienced that, right? Where the front edge of the nut is either cut wrong or has worn away so it produces an overtone? It's the exact same principle, and it WILL screw up the intonation.

In the very same paragraph, you state you think the 12th fret is low. I HAVE NEVER SEEN A 12th FRET THAT IS LOWER THAN THE REST. How do you expalin this happening?? How does ONE FRET in the middle of the fret board, become lower than the rest?? What has that got to do with the original posters question, even if it was possible?? A lower fret will show up as buzzing, not an intonation problem. Once again, your talking about something totally unrelated. Why is that, are you trying to sound like you know what your talking about??

Ummm.. did you not see where he said he used fairly high action? Are you not aware that high action does wonders to mask low frets? Do YOU have any clue what you're talking about? How could a 12th fret be lower? Umm... maybe it was ALWAYS LIKE THAT? Maybe it's worn down? Since he uses high action, the whole area around the 12th fret could use being refretted and he doesn't even know it. One of my guitars is like this. How could this affect the intonation? Seriously, you have to ask this? You have no clue how a low fret could cause intonation to be off? How about this. Low fret = virtual higher action. It may not be much, but it doesn't take much for the note to ring sharp. Also, it's nice to see that because you've never seen it that it doesn't exist. Unfortunately, I have seen it many times and know otherwise.

I suspect you have NEVER EVER even seen a guitar AT ALL. Your opinions are so very wrong, you are dillusional. Please stop posting until you know what your talking about, we are all sick of amatuers giving incorrect advice.

And I'm sick of jackasses acting like since they read the StewMac book, and have worked on a few Gibsons, they know everything. I'll tell you right now, I don't know everything. But I know Jacksons. I spent a while working for Jackson as a QC tech (right before Fender bought them), doing setups on all the guitars before they went out to the dealers. I also handled a fair amount of the warranty repairs. In my time there I estimate I handled between 7,000-8,000 Jacksons of all makes, models, points of origin, and color. I had two of the best techs you'll ever see (Kevin Easton and Reid Rogers) as my instructors, coworkers, and friends.

-----

BTW, I've seen your site and know your work and know that you know your ****. You've just overextended yourself trying to make me look like a moron.

No my friend, you've made yourself look like a moron.

If you know anything about repair or set up, you sho0uld know that trying to confuse unknowledgable people by baffling them with unrelated BS is not the best thing to do. That is exactly what youve done by telling everyone that scale length adjustments can be made with a truss rod. Truss rods are for setting relief, AND THAT IS IT, NOTHING MORE. String action is set at the nut and bridge, intonation at the bridge (and nut too if your real fussy, but rarely).

I mentioned Gibson as having bridge placement problems, as i have three in my shop RIGHT NOW, have done more that ten this year, and these guitars are considered "high end". This is proof alone that not even the big boys get it right, so why should an asian import (not that the OP stated he had either). For some reason, you then assumed every time i typed, i was talking about gibson tun-o-matics...pfft.

You then startted having a go at me for stating a fairly simple concept, string height vs guage vs tuning pitch vs action. This is something you have no idea about. Please do some research.

THEN, you had the nerve to say that heavy trem use wil cause the front of the saddles to wear... no problem from me there, but dude, that will actually help the situation! Come on, the original poster is complaining the intonated length aint long enough. A worn saddle will only help. But still, you couldnt answer the question. When a saddle is set up, you dont put it were it should be theoretically before it wore, you put it where the intonation is correct. Worn or not!

Then you start ranting about a 1-10,000 chance of a 12th fret being low from the factory, and the owner may never have known, because he prefers high action. ***?? Please explain what it has to do with ANY of this thread. YOU then claim ive never seen a low fret, so put words in MY mouth by telling everyone i dont believe it can happen. What trip are you on dude?? Can you not see that everyone is now looking straight through you??

I dont really care how many guitars youve seen, nor touched. Your comments here in the last few days have been deliberately misleading, and totally unrelated to the original posters problem. Instead of going with the simple, easiest, most common problem first, you've flown off the wall with conspiricy theories about low frets, using truss rods to gain 0.0001" string length, etc etc. Come on man, we are all here to help, but your post has done the opposite of that.

If your the same Black Mariah from a certain other forum, well, ive seen you before, and respect you, but these comments above are just totally incorrect, and should never have been posted. Surely you agree that some of the things youve said are not appropriate, nor warranted, in the OP case.