Went out of the saddle space

[Black Mariah]

If you know anything about repair or set up, you sho0uld know that trying to confuse unknowledgable people by baffling them with unrelated BS is not the best thing to do. That is exactly what youve done by telling everyone that scale length adjustments can be made with a truss rod. Truss rods are for setting relief, AND THAT IS IT, NOTHING MORE. String action is set at the nut and bridge, intonation at the bridge (and nut too if your real fussy, but rarely).

How are you not understanding the simple concept that adding relief decreases scale length and in general screws with intonation? Think about it in terms of a bow. When you pull the string, one end gets closer to the other. This is exactly what happend on a guitar neck. Like I've said a dozen freaking times, it's there, it happens, and you have to know how to deal with it, but its effect is minute. This isn't some whacko theory I've come up with on my own, it's something that was explained to me by one of my former coworkers in a discussion about neck relief.

I mentioned Gibson as having bridge placement problems, as i have three in my shop RIGHT NOW, have done more that ten this year, and these guitars are considered "high end". This is proof alone that not even the big boys get it right, so why should an asian import (not that the OP stated he had either). For some reason, you then assumed every time i typed, i was talking about gibson tun-o-matics...pfft.

Yeah, and I've seen custom Jacksons that had trems set in the wrong place. You're trying to make an argument out of nothing here. I said it was easier to tell on a guitar with a recessed trem if the bridge is out of position. If you want to argue that point, go for it.

THEN, you had the nerve to say that heavy trem use wil cause the front of the saddles to wear... no problem from me there, but dude, that will actually help the situation! Come on, the original poster is complaining the intonated length aint long enough. A worn saddle will only help. But still, you couldnt answer the question. When a saddle is set up, you dont put it were it should be theoretically before it wore, you put it where the intonation is correct. Worn or not!

Theoretically, you're right. In practice, you aren't. The thing is, you never know what's going to happen when you have a worn saddle. The intonation could go sharp, it could go flat. You just never know.

Then you start ranting about a 1-10,000 chance of a 12th fret being low from the factory, and the owner may never have known, because he prefers high action. ***?? Please explain what it has to do with ANY of this thread. YOU then claim ive never seen a low fret, so put words in MY mouth by telling everyone i dont believe it can happen. What trip are you on dude?? Can you not see that everyone is now looking straight through you??

What it has to do with this thread? Uh... maybe LOW FRETS SCREW WITH INTONATION? A low fret will send the note sharp, especially on a guitar with high action. I'm a big string/high action guy myself and have dealt with this on many occasions.

So it's fine for you to put words in MY mouth, but not okay for me to put words in yours? Whatever.

I dont really care how many guitars youve seen, nor touched. Your comments here in the last few days have been deliberately misleading, and totally unrelated to the original posters problem. Instead of going with the simple, easiest, most common problem first, you've flown off the wall with conspiricy theories about low frets, using truss rods to gain 0.0001" string length, etc etc. Come on man, we are all here to help, but your post has done the opposite of that.

The first few posters jumped and said "The trems in the wrong spot, move it." My advice was to make sure that the saddles weren't worn and to check the 12th fret area with a straightedge. Which is simpler to you?

If your the same Black Mariah from a certain other forum, well, ive seen you before, and respect you, but these comments above are just totally incorrect, and should never have been posted. Surely you agree that some of the things youve said are not appropriate, nor warranted, in the OP case.

If you're talking about the Jackson forums, that's me. No, my comments are not totally incorrect. They're things I earned while dealing with 50+ setups a day. If you'll look at my original post, I have it clearly split up between the stuff you keep going on about and my actual advice. Telling someone to just move the damn tremolo is bloody stupid. There are many other things that can cause an intonation problem that you want to check befor you go drilling new holes in anything. If you want to yell at someone, yell at them.

*EDITED*

I clicked the wrong button. *duh* I'm still getting used to this forum.

[westhemann]

phhfft!

brian has the best suggestion...

to the original poster... go here

http://www.projectguitar.com/tut/tutorial1.htm

follow the step by step instructions...DO NOT use your trussrod for anything but neck relief...once you follow ALL the steps IN ORDER,if you still have the same problem for the tuning and string guage you want,do as brian suggested

setting up a guitar is not some kind of magical voodoo like you would think from reading some of this crap

but i suggest you get used to playing with lower action,because high action will prevent you from playing the best you can,and when you start to build up speed,you will need the ease of playing to prevent injuring yourself...i used to play with high action myself,until i strained my middle finger.that was a year ago and it still doesn't work right.

kerry king said once "you have to have low action to play what i play"

believe it

anyway don't skip any steps on your setup...

[westhemann]

Others tell me to screw out the truss rod, lay my guitar on a desk with front panel, lift the neck a bit and then starting to screwing the tross rod back in while holding the body down and pulling the neck towards me (gently).

i fail to see how that would do a damn thing..am i missing something?you don't want a back bow

[rhoads56]

How are you not understanding the simple concept that adding relief decreases scale length and in general screws with intonation? Think about it in terms of a bow. When you pull the string, one end gets closer to the other. This is exactly what happend on a guitar neck. Like I've said a dozen freaking times, it's there, it happens, and you have to know how to deal with it, but its effect is minute. This isn't some whacko theory I've come up with on my own, it's something that was explained to me by one of my former coworkers in a discussion about neck relief.

No denying that adjusting the truss rod may effect scale length, but whats your point?? the truss rods job is to counteract string tension, and dial in the required straightness or relief. This is the first thing you do when doing a setup, set the fretboard playing surface. THEN, you go to string action, then intonation. YOU SHOULD NEVER adjust the truss rod to get the intonation correct, thats the job of adjustable saddles.

Name ONE TIME when adjusting a truss rod is useful in achieving the desired intonation, without stuffing up the "ultimate" playing surface of the fretboard (relief/straightness).

[rhoads56]

Yeah, and I've seen custom Jacksons that had trems set in the wrong place. You're trying to make an argument out of nothing here. I said it was easier to tell on a guitar with a recessed trem if the bridge is out of position. If you want to argue that point, go for it.

so, are you saying that you determine if the bridge is correctly located, by checking its relation to the recessed trem rout?? You are a novice at best, if thats your method. How do you guarantee the trems recess is perfectly routed every time?? Why do Jackson guitars rout the trem rout perfectly every time, yet stuff up the bridge post location so frequently??

Now, you have a choice of telling us:

a - Jackson doesnt have good quality control, and cant install a bridge post in the right spot, but gets trem rout PERFECT every time...

or

b - you are guessing the trem rout is perfect, and using that as gospel.

So, you can either admit A, and tell us your employer is careless, or, B, and tell us your careless.

I will refute option B, as i have one here in front of me RIGHT NOW that has the trem perfectly placed, but the trem recess is not only too close to the fretboard, but off centre also.

[rhoads56]

Theoretically, you're right. In practice, you aren't. The thing is, you never know what's going to happen when you have a worn saddle. The intonation could go sharp, it could go flat. You just never know.

What it has to do with this thread? Uh... maybe LOW FRETS SCREW WITH INTONATION? A low fret will send the note sharp, especially on a guitar with high action. I'm a big string/high action guy myself and have dealt with this on many occasions.

So it's fine for you to put words in MY mouth, but not okay for me to put words in yours? Whatever.

The first few posters jumped and said "The trems in the wrong spot, move it." My advice was to make sure that the saddles weren't worn and to check the 12th fret area with a straightedge. Which is simpler to you?

There are many other things that can cause an intonation problem that you want to check befor you go drilling new holes in anything. If you want to yell at someone, yell at them.

No, worn saddles move the last contact point of the string, further back. There is no other option. A string will NEVER go sharper when you keep the string tension the same, but lengthen the vibrating length. Simple stuff really.

If you had suggested the guy use less fingering pressure when fretting the twelth, you would have been more correct than stating a 12th fret being mysteriously low, is the reason he might be having tuning problems. This 12 th fret comment is totally totally just way out there. Its amlost non existant in the real world. Thats not saying it doesnt happen, it is just extremely extremely rare, but you seem to think its the be all, and end all of intonation problems.

no, you stated the truss rod will help setting the string length. That was your first of many mistakes. The rest were rediculous unrelated comments, but that one was your worst.

Why would i?? They arent filling peoples minds with conspiricy theories of low 12th frets, worn saddles, and perfect trem routs but wrong post locations. The MAIN reason this guy is having problems, are the string guage, and desired tuning pitch.

Now, for the original posters problems, here are some comments.

When we tune a guitar perfectly, including the full set up of fretboard straightness/relief, string action, and intonation (in that order only), it will play a perfect octave between an open string, and a note played by fretting at the 12th fret, on that same string.

However, when we lower the pitch by a full tone (to D), we will have to move the saddles backwards to reset the intonation. Bear in mind, the truss rod will also need to be adjusted, to set the fretboard playing surface. Now, my experience, has been that a guitar with very low action, is this:

The 6th string, when dropped from "E" to "D", will have a 12th fret note (octave) which is 4 points out. Now, the higher the action, the more exadurated this becomes. So, it could be two or three times that, very easily, with higher action. On a Tun-o-matic style bridge, that may very well cause trouble (and more than likely WILL cause trouble).

Now, thicker strings require more tension to achieve the same note. Pressing on a string to fret it, when its under low tension, takes little effort, as it only raises the tension a small amount. Applying the same DISTANCE of tension (eg: action height), to a string under higher pressure, means the tension increases dramatically. SO, therefore, the larger the string diameter, the more you will need to wind back the saddle, to achieve perfect intonation...

My challenge to the original poster is to try this first, to prove my point:

Get a set of 10-46 strings, or somethign around that size. Set the truss rod, the action, and intonation. Let us know if the intonation could be set prefectly.

Now, try dropping the pitch down to D, and go through that all again. Set the truss rod, action (once you set the neck relief/straightness, the action should be perfect again this time) and intonation. Report back to us with your findings.

If your real keen, try it again with the big mumma strings you bought, and go through the full set up again. You will learn a lot about string diamter vs tension.

[westhemann]

well i think this question has been answered