psw

+1 excellent suggestion... prefinishing is another good way of ensuring no glue on the surface...might be tricky not to warp it into a "roll"...maybe double sided tape onto something while the surface cost sets... see...got to keep thinking laterally...

This is the old "sustainer strat"...actually, "block wood" (strips of solid wood) with a front and back of ply...heavily modified as you can see, but the strat curves makes a cool look in plywood...and as you can see, a clear finish is fine, even brushed on like this one! oh...whats with the HUGE type face...might want to tone that down a bit...very distracting, on this monitor I have to go to the other side of the room to focus on any of the words!!!

As suggested, a higher value volume pot will let more highs and volume through (it is kind of anti intuitive, but this is the case) and also, put a treble bleed cap on the volume and turn it down a bot, this produces the opposite effect of the tone control...reducing the volume of the lows and leaving the highs...so effectively a treble boost as you turn it down! P-bass pickups are great, but if you are using only a 15" it is not going to be able to reproduce a whole lotta highs regardless of the guitar...the amps tone controls and especially things like a graphic equalizer can help. but you may really want to look at the amp side of things more than the guitar itself. Have you tried a different bass through your rig? The other thing is of course, where the pickup is placed...did you make this bass? Perhaps adding a J-bass pickup or something closer to the bridge might help...but the "precision" bass is a fantasitic bass and a classic, used on plenty of funk and popping and with the standard P-bass pickup...so you know, it certainly is capable of bring those out with the right rig and in the right hands...

Hahaha...you sound like a real experimenter...i tried some cutting of piezos much the same way, even was able to solder leads to them...the last ones were to slip under a strats saddles individually...but these things are very primitive really and I think you could do as well DIY with multiple buzzer elements strategically placed, in the bridge and in other places to balance things out a bit...that's how it was always done in acoustics before the saddle things turned up...it's just like mic-ing the things up. Meanwhile, I've put in an order for an acoustic sim to take care of that side of things in the immediate future, I can use it on multiple guitars at least. So, we will see how a cheap one sounds and I will let you know...maybe some hiss, we'll see. I used to do a lot of experimenting like this, and have cheap guitars to play around with, but these days, I'm getting a bit more 'serious' with the outcomes and concentrating on things that are a bit more reliable and practical in a real word scenario...so, no wires hanging off the headstock on any new projects I don't think! I do have a project on hold though that I might get around to...a cro0ss between an acoustic "jazz box" with a strat neck and electronics, probably even a trem...but also, piezo system...I have a few good professional systems in a box but the preamps and such are too big ot go into any electric without a lot of digging into them!

If you are starting out...and you feel teh cost is a bit high...you could perhaps try rewinding cheap pickups...they have the parts in them of course. There is also the advantage that you can get to hear them with all the factors in place (bobbins, magnets, etc) as per the "factory" and compare that to what happens when you rewind them...that way you get a feel for some of the things that go into pickup qualities. Also, I think that one should have a pretty good idea about the way the things work, at least enough to see through the hype...and good ears, really go out and hear what a "PAF" is or whatever, not just the 'hype' or the resistance...find out what a great pickup sounds like compared to an average one. It's good that people are getting into pickup winding, but it would seem that a lot of people see it as a business rather than a passion. Lot's of people want to be artists, not all of us are going to have talent for it, less still are going to be successful. Hype will only go so far, but in this 'trade' there is an explosion of hype and 'pretenders' as well as 'contenders'...I think people like SD were successful because they had the ears and experience with the real things...and listened to the customers and could actually get the results for them. Now, that's going to be hard to compete with. I agree with SL, $25 bucks for all those bits in an HB, doesn't look to bad as a one off...but you know, it sounds like you have a lot to learn yet if you need to even ask if a shiny piece of steel is better than an old rusty one!

The problem with a lot of the Hype and artist models in pickups is that, like effects presets, they tend to be overblown. Things like the PAF are classic because they are less powerful and more balanced, get a bit more of the guitar sound through as well. There's nothing 'wrong' with SD, it's just the market forces driving for 'more power' etc. There really isn't a need for it really, most amps and stompboxes and such have so much preampslification on hand, you can always boost "power' but do it with windings and you are going to get a bit of a 'one trick pony' at best. That said, I'm near completing a LP with some no name pickups, all slug poles and overwound...but the wiring has treble bleed caps on the volumes and effective tone controls plus splitting and local paralel options...has a broad palette of sounds and by simply turning down the volume control, you can get these fairly powerful over-wound, mid-rangy pickups to really open up...and sound a lot like the real PAF's in the real LP. So...if your guitar has treble bleed caps in the vol's you should be able to get a less bass heavy and cleaner sound with the controls on hand...it is amazing how often people don't use the things. In my tele, it is excessively bright, so I left off the treble bleed and so when the vols turned down a notch, it tones down the 'bite'. If thinking that a more 'single coil' sound would be good, this is the first guitar I have put in local parallel on the bridge pickup...and that's a surprisingly good sound with over-wound pickups...a bit like a split, but without any hum and nothing like the kind of nonsense people say about such things. It looks like people just look at the resistance, local parallel will read about 1/4 of the same thing in series, but it isn't anything like half the power even and a really good brighter sound, no noise... What ever happened to people wanting to create their own "tone" anyway...I mean, all well to take some tips from those you admire, but there are so many factors, the player being a huge part, wy not find your own tones with your own guitar and maybe someone will want to copy you?

Have you any soundclips of these piezo guitars? I wasn't suggesting you won't get 'a' sound out of putting a piezo literally anywhere...the peg head does produce quite a few vibrations of course, its relatively quite a flexible bit of the guitar with the strings mounted at the end of it. However, such pickups on the nut end are likely to be picking up a fair amount of the vibrations of the string behind the fretted note...the length of the string between the fret and the nut, and the string length between the nuts and the tuners on many guitars as well. Plus of course, any kind of fretting noise of hand shifting on the neck and such...all produce vibrations. Still, maybe that's an effect you are after, or not your experience with them. Regardless of the potential odd frequencies that might be in the background, the main fundamentals will still predominate...Headstock tuners after all use an internal piezo to pickup the vibrations there and read the pitch from it. With mixing piezos, these things will obviously make a noise just as they are and and amp compensate for the loss of volume compared to mags...and of course contains the preamp...but the P's and Mags together have a tremendous mismatch of impedance that can't avoid loading of both... It does show the advantageous of multiple piezos...you can add them together, but like any pickups, you can put them in or out of phase resulting in 'cancellations' of frequencies or reinforcing others...so it is very much a case of moving things around and finding the sound that works for you and a particular guitar. Pevey had some guitars with piezo saddles and a neck pocket piezio for instance to add a bit more of a 'woody' tone to things. But, equally, in my experience, the neck pocket piezos can sound great, but then you do pickup a bit of noise if playing in the upper fret region, specifically the "thumping" of you fingers as they come down on the fretboard...not so bad if strumming chords in an open position...but if that's what you do, it can be an effective addition. ... On the Kahler, I just got an email today that they are producing a piezo...even sent me some pics. Basically it will be graph tech saddles that will replace the kahler saddles and use the great Ghost system so it will be able to do both piezo acoustic sounds, but be hex compatible and operate as a midi controller too! ... I was a little surprised that the piezo in my LP directly under the bridge produced such little output (even with a preamp) and the sound was poor regardless. After a bit of thought, some price checking and listening to the sounds, the acoustic sims are certainly getting better and potentially, with the right kind of source sound, very good if not 'better' kinds of effects at the push of a button....hmmm Still, I'd be open to being swayed by some great sounds and ideas to achieve much the same effects.

It's ok wiz, we all melt down occasionally...well, I'm known to regularly...I know a few others do too... generally not so early in the run of things...but it happens... welcome to the forum, there's always another project and lots of ideas here, personally I use PVA, but what would I know!

That's cool... Still can't imagine how you got a kahler to "rock"...my LP uses the stud mounting, but my tele has the falt mount thing and they are both incredibly solid... On the wiring thing, there are things you can do, but with passive filters, you can only really take away stuff...there are some 'trick pots' about with caps and mini transformers to create a more spohisticated filter, usually promoted as sounding like an inbetween strat sound... On my new LP, I have a huge range of options wired in, the two inner coils of it sound very 'acoustically' in a kind of inbetween strat way which is kind of cool...the bridtge parallel mode is pretty cool as well...so there are things you can do with wiring alone and no batteries, but they are not going to sound particularly "acoustic"... Been researching the possibilities of Acoustic Sims and considering buying a AM100 for like $50 as it probably is going to sound as good as most piezo options and very convenient and adaptable. Depends a fair bit on the guitar used...it uses filters to simulate a kind of acoustic sound but it can only work on the frequencies present, a lot of HB's have a lot of midrange and are going to be a lot less realistic. Not sure that sticking a piezo to the headstock is such a good idea...the guitar vibrates in all kinds of ways with different resonances...with the neck joint mounting, it works and pretty woody and a strong signal there, but then it also picks up the noise of your fingers handling the neck! There are a lot of piezo things on this site, most are pretty old, but if you search hard enough things will come up. You can run the piezos either way, they will still need to go into a preamp which should fix the impedance mismatching...so it is easy enough to string a few of them together to pickup different samples from the bridge and elsewhere...headstock though, not sure about that one!

ArMelvin1...great work, saves me doing too much mucking about...did you check out this preamp/piezo installation and design, plus sound clips? I think a big part of me not getting better results was that I was mounting the piezo on the wood below the khaler, so not on the bridge itself and not getting a strong or full set of vibrations out of it...therefore requiring a lot of amplification and getting just a lot of the highs and squeaks...so perhaps a bit ambitious there for a reasonable response. In john's strat one above, you will see the bridge pushes against a rubber stopper attached to the piezo...something to consider perhaps. sounds like you are getting results and just need to clean everything up once you get the 'sound' you are after..can't be having a rocking bridge! The handling noise is obviously a concern...and a dual edge sword...keep it on the wood and you only pickup some vibrations and a low signal to work with or attach it to the bridge and get a high output but also the signal of anything that touches the thing, plus the sound of the bar and the springs with trem use... I had thought the obvious 'solution' to have a really good go at this would be to put the piezos, perhaps a piezo strip saddle or a few buzzers cut down (you know you can wire multiple buzzers together?) under or just behind the shelf that the bridge saddles sit on...the saddles on a kahler tend to sit pretty high..and drill a small hole for the wires hidden under the saddles or take them forward and under...hoping to get more of the 'string' vibrations perhaps. A khaler bridge is a pretty solid thing so the vibrations from it are going to be pretty "bright" but those saddle piezo things are picking up a similar kind of signal. It is unlikely to pick up much of a "woody" tone either on a bridge or on an electric guitar (though, many say that of Ovation type bridges for decades, it sounds like a piezo as much as anything) ... a lot of the shaping needs to be done in the preamp to get a decent tone. The thing is that it is a completely different signal and sound to a mag pickup, far more percussive and quick in attack and can give a good 'edge' that many mag pickups, particularly HB's can lack. So, adding to this to the electric sound is where it is at for me I think. For my guitar, I've gone more the way of ansil's proposal to scoop out frequencise and such with phasing and splitting and tone controls and avoid the preamps and the piezos all together, but the too is hardly 'acoustic' in the same way...but still an effective strategy. Really though, there are some great sounding acoustic simulators about these days, I think for me if I must have this effect, given the handling noise issues, this is probably more the way to go. Not completely given up though, although my guitar has all it's controls taken up now, there is always the possibility of adding some slide switches secretly in the cavity plates, especially the back of the selector switch plate on an LP...so will continue to follow your project to see what results you get. Having a good way of piezio'ing a kahler easily and effectively would be something of a coup I suspect...so keep at it! .... Notable AC simulators are from Boss and a Behringer clone that is of course super cheap...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJqIxVQ5_cE...at about $50au, got to wonder whether a sim isn't going to do the job without handling noise or mods of the guitar, and with the press of a pedal...on an electric (varies a bit with guitars of course) this is probably as close as you'd be getting anyway. Just some thoughts...I have several good ones in my Boss BR-600 recorder that work quite well, some have a few effects like chorus and stereo delays, some can sound like a 12 string with a octave up effect...so, you know, there are other options to consider

Fair...but it does seem a bit lately...in any democracy, they say you get the government you deserve, or so they say, don't think they are the problem...hmmm But...I did find the the original thread to make up for dis'ing the 'old country'... Tightbond 2 OP says always used PVA and worked fine on the headstock...woodenspoke answers a direct question about tightbond 2, ends with... but there were links to a thread on the subject... ... It's always disappointing when a project that is dear like a sons guitar goes astray, worse when 'dad' has some knowledge in the general area...but it is at times like that that even more care needs to be taken when trying something new. Take a break and do it again, either with the lesson learned, or something new... I think this is more of what was happening in this project...

Hmmm...I thought that kind of reaction was reserved for me...anyway... We all have many things to learn... As far as using PVA's..yes, they are going to cause problems with thin porous woods and certainly any kind of clear finish pretty much as they tend to seal the wood and sanding it away (near impossible with a veneer anyway) is going to be near if not impossible (say on a veneer where it has soaked through)...so, solutions... I used to be a bookbinder and used various glues including various PVA types (titebond is simply a name) on materials like paper and leather and fabric...yep, all thinner and more porous and not able to 'sand' later...so... One 'solution' is to mix a very watery PVA solution and let it sit and start to go off...then quickly brush a thin coat to the back of the veneer. This will provide a sealing coat to prevent the glue coat seeping through. Hold the veneer to the light, often you can even see holes in it, obviously glue will get through such holes, right? So, perhaps you could try attaching a surface clear plastic adhesive material to the front...providing a protective coating to stop any glue getting on the face and the glue from penetrating through as you do the first sealing glue coat. These two strategies and anything else you might be able to think of (like gluing in the same way a supportive tissue paper layer or using a heat glue (PVA itself will soften up with heat))...good to leave on while clamping and other operations prior to finishing also..after all, they do it to plastic pickguards to prevent premature scratching, right? Of course, veneering is itself something of an art unto itself...and I am by no means an expert...so at such times it might be good to consult a reference on the subject...I have such a book, unfortunately it is still in the boxes from my recent move...preventing me from also sounding like "a load of sanctimonious piffle" (by the way, is there something in the UK water, this attitude and language seems to all emanate from over there lately) by quoting what the real experts do...after all, inlay and on-lay artists in veneer do some amazing work with all kinds of veneer (even using PVA type glues) and woods with different grain patterns and shrinkage's, so they certainly seem to have methods for it... It is a criticism of the forum (which can use a bit of criticism occasionally) not just the glue...it was put that this was the suggestion of members here to use...hmm. Well, this is a wide community, many may not have gone through the pitfalls or assumed you knew that stuff. Use epoxy and it would undoubtedly turned out even worse! And yes, veneer is not the most common strategy for custom guitars, it's more of a decorative surface material...spray painting is going to be harder, would you blames someone for suggesting you spray a guitar if you make a mess of it? But, I had a discussion about the use of PVA and exactly what it is with someone else from the UK in recent times in another forum that used equally strong if not personal attacks and ridicule upon me...I suggest it as a cheap and safe and effective way of potting electromagnetic coils...I stand by that, PVA when dry has much the same qualities as PVC tape but in a liquid form, the industry standard for insulating materials in electronics...sounds good to me... I got to ask myself, exception though there are many here, if there is just something in the UK character that has to fly off with such stuff... Nice guitars btw, but proves nothing as far as knowledge of glues or working with veneers, tightbond is PVA!

Ah...micro frets was the guitar I was thinking off I think...but I am sure tehre have been other attempts at this kind of thing on some older obscure guitars... ... Doing a project at the moment and also a solo project (so won't be playing with other guitars too often) and being very picky about tuning and intonation...have been doing a bit or research today... Earvana certainly seem to have a good practical product for a wide range of instruments... I was looking at something that was friction reducing or even a roller nut or LSR...they make a non-slippery, LSR conversion nut would you believe!!! But nothing that would work great with a tremelo...perhaps they should make an LSR version with adjustable intonation since the fretboard already needs modification and the nut is screwed in and height adjustable. Oh well...was a long shot...but did get this quote from their site of a magazine review... I'm not sure if this would apply to the buzz frietlin system as well, perhaps not as they have elaborate tuning offsets as well...but this would be a huge disadvantage to the way I often play, especially this "solo stuff". I will often use fretted and open strings often fretting way up the neck to get harp like efffects alternating with opens...and harmonics as well within chords and melody lines that alternate between fretted and open notes... However, while there is always some intonation issues in the nature of the guitar, it is amazing how a really well set up conventional guitar can play extremely "in tune" and I'd have to seriously reconsider doing something like this to an instrument if there are down sides with open strings and fretted notes not in the open position 'cowboy chord' style that these things are perhaps anticipating sounding "better with it"...perhaps there is something more I am missing...but along with this possibility, just a height adjustable nut itself would make setting things up so much easier regardless of intonation features...and perhaps something a little more 'slippery' than typical nut material.

Not sure why the band want you more delayed, sometimes people with a bunch of effects sound like they are way off in the distance because off all the 'verb and your straight sound is more 'up front' as a result..and they don't like it...perhaps they should tone down the ambiance especially in a rehearsal situation unless it is a major part of the "sound". Although I have always has this delay on, it really is incredibly low and not 'necessary' anymore, especially now using a fender amp with a better reverb in it anyway. I use it more to soften the sound, but only just recently brought it back into regular service...otherwise straight amp and guitar these days. Like to get more sounds out of the guitar though, and latest guitar is a rewired LP copy with JP like "twenty-dual" wiring which has an amazing variety of sounds hidden in it (22 actually) in 4 push pulls and dual HB's. Even getting a bit of a strat like 'quack' with the two inner coils and the bridge parallel sound is surprisingly good. Tend to be a one guitar at a time kind of guy...liking the idea of just turning up with a combo and a case and plugging in an playing without all the mucking about!

Hi KP...had wondered where you had gone... Onboard effects, I've kind of got a strange attraction to the things (the sustainer of course is one effect that HAS to be "onboard", unless you count the eBow)... But, never had too much joy with the things I have to admit, and looking objectively at them, there are good reasons. My tele originally was to have a MODboard optical tremolo in it, got all the parts...but the thing made a whole lotta noise...mainly hiss...and can't be having that... Delays are something I actually do you a whole lot. In fact, the only effect I really use...my delay of choice is an old Ibanez AD100 'rack' kind of thing...produces about 300ms of analog delay and I have it set generally for a single repeat (maybe 2) on full delay but with the delay volume on about 2 compared to 10 for the original. It also allows me to run 'stereo' for a huge sound should I choose, with a second am running the delay only. I also use the fender reverb on it to give space. The echo also provides a permanent buffer, preamp that can dial in for different powered guitars, toning them down without loading if overly hot, or boosting the output before it hits the amp for weak pickups. The rule tends to be to put a delay in an effects loop, to get behind the preamp, but playing so clean, I like the sound and the convenience...with distortion and if your amp can do it, better even in the loop after the preamp. Posters here have all good points, generally the delay should be at the end of the chain...especially if you use distortions. There are reasons you might like things on the guitar...easy to dial in tempos or tame the thing down...or even play a solo with regenerative feedback or make 'whale' noises...but really? The biggest downside to onboard anything, and delays especially (especially since most are now digital) is that they eat batteries...not what you'd want in a guitar I might suggest... plus all the other down sides, only good for the guitar it's in, may introduce noise, batteries in a guitar, etc... ... So, a dedicated delay would be the choice. You might find one of the older racks around, some of them were classic and many have newer more sophisticated stuff now, so maybe there are bargains...though perhaps they are collectable and over priced. My "other dealy" is the old Boss DD3 (i think mine is, they are up to a DD5 now at least) and has a fabulous very precise copy (analogue delays are nice and soft like tape delays, far more natural) and quite long. About 800ms so you can do all your bounce like tricks (EVH cathedral, etc) and double tracking like stuff...not so ambient. One feature of these things is a "hold" function...practice, and you can sustain a note, put your foot down...and continue to "sample and loop" this held note indefinitely (sustainer...hmmm) while also continuing the rest of the song...especially appropriate if the song is "don't fear the reaper"... Behringher make a very cheap copy I believe. The MODboard delay I suspect has very few features by comparison, and I was not impressed and the response on was inquiry, that it is supposed to be so noisy, at least with the trem...vintage sound apparently...and not a bargain since it really is only a circuit board!!! So yeah...separate box, analogue if wanting something more natural sounding for being on all the time and an excellent replacement fro reverb or to make reverb huge by reverbing the delay and so masking the more obvious repeats. Digital, very versatile, eats batteries very quickly, not so natural for ambiance...but fantastic for special effects and delay tricks and for very long delays...put some reverb on it to soften things up a bit... Almost every delay can be used to split and enlarge multiple amp set ups with a mono in and straight and delay out. So...a digital delay might be a better coice because of the fidelity, turn the time to zero and you ahve an instant multi amp and even mulit-effects rig and in stereo. You could have a clean guitar with a chain of chorus like effects say (or more delays or reverb)...and a dirty channel with a different amp and effects chain...step on the dely and you would be turning off the "delay" side (even if on zero) and so changing amps and effects chains on the fly...sould you be of the nauture to carry so much crap and amps around with you. Some have asked over the years why I have (and still do when my bass player hasn't pinched it lately) used a 15" bass box with my guitar rigs since the early 80's...and this was the reason it started...I ran an old EH "clone theory", one side into a SS roland combo amp and the other into an ancient dirty old valve amp into the bass box...about 150 watts in all and stereo...an amazingly huge sound. The amps were set so the bass frequencies were being handled by the bigger speaker and distorted, plus got the definition and clean highs and precision in the bass as well (helped also with the fat sound of the old LP I used to play). How amazing was it...well, half an hour of mucking around with it, and I get a knock on the door...and this kid (well, I suppose I was still too) wanted to know how such an amazing sound was coming out through the walls and to hear it in person...now that's amazing!@ Anyway...delay pedals have so many uses and too much fun to have stuck in one guitar and not being able to do all that stuff with...otherwise, don't need to get "effect happy", the delay that sits on my amp is just there all the time (and the settings don't change), otherwise, never used a lot of the things (except that there was not a song in the 80's that didn't need a chorus, so I confess to over doing that in my time!)

Well...I'm not advocating the wide range...but it certainly have a distinctive "clang" to it. By the same token, the P-90's were derided and rare for the very same qualities that people now covert them for. Yes...the cats whiskers sound good in their own right, probably no huge deal, wire and magnets you know...keep at it till it sounds good and perhaps familiar. Would have been nice to compare them to the single coil, HB and P-90s...the actual pickups...than the P-rail. Maybe the same guitar even.

Interesting... Everything in this line is by necessity a compromise. Both sound pretty good, I was surprised at how good the skinny little single coil in the P-Rail sounded on it's own actually. The guitars they were tested on were quite different, one with a trem and a thicker neck, the other with an aluminium fixed bridge and a maple top..that alone may make for the differences in tone. As with most things there is a bit of Hype...Steven Kirsting has been making single coils sized P-90s for a while...many have made HB's with magnetic poles on one side...this seems to be a similar variation. One of the "issues" is that putting two pickups in the same case necessitates a complete change in the magnetic field, and important part of the P-90 design. Put two magnets near each other and they will interact and reshape what the other is doing. In the end, they both sound good. But jumping on the mood for p-90's at the present time. What I don't quite get is why there are not pickup designers trying to forge their 'own sound' out there...probably a marketing thing I suppose. My tele has an old Fender Wide range HB with magnetic poles in both pickups for instance...another unique sound....apparently the market value for these originals are through the roof... Has anyone tried making an HB pickup with all fender poles in both coils for instance? Of course it won't sound like a gibson or a fender (the magnetic structure with the poles being attracted to each other would rule that out) but it could make a really interesting sound, much like my fender perhaps. Or...well there are so many variations. The guitar I am building at the moment has no name pickups in it, but interestingly it has all slug poles, no screws. And, there is a difference in sound, the parallel sound is gets a very nice single coils sound without noise and slightly louder than a split (the guitar can do both for direct comparison) and not that dramatic a drop in power from the HB. The full HB is nice and rich and creamy. No hype, no brand name...I don't know what they are, probably came out of artec, but they work and have their own vibe and there is no hype or pretending they are something else (PAF, P-90, Vintage whatever...) I did a number on the wiring though, because I strategically didn't want the guitar to sound "like" or even exactly like any particular vintage 'type'...you don't see a guy like Brian May go out to make a guitar that 'sounds like' whatever, now people make guitars and pickups and wiring schemes to sound like him. When did things change do you think? I'd love to see some makers exploring their own sounds and making some new ones instead of reinventing the wheel all the time. There are even whole areas yet to explore...originally I came to PG with ideas to build pickups, but that was just before the explosion in backyard pickup makers many relying on hype and voodoo and self premonition and at best offering up sounds that might just compare to those of the past and classic designs and sounds. I think a there is a lot of potential for those here that amke pickups to promote themselves as offering up "new sounds"...just a thought ... Regardless, both pickups sounded fine and I am sure that the success of the P-rail will ensure a lot more 'pretenders' come down the chute. The advantage that SD has is that they can afford the tooling to create unique bobbins and a rail coil that sounds so good split...but then they have been at it a while. Are there new ideas that people have been exploring? Is the P-90 trend going to continue? What's the new flavor going to be do you think?

Great to see your projects going from strength to strength john... Yes, there is a concern there...what I'd do if you like this and think you can pull it off neatly is... finish the guitar, and if it doesn't show up as wanted, get some metalic gold model paint and a very fine brush...and spend an hour or so carefully painting the inside edges of the design...that way when you look at it, from most angles, you will have the pattern highlighted... Might want to practice on something first...will take a steady and and the effect may not be what you hoped for...but could be a lot more like the Tiesco's kind of effect. ... If you were into a bit of surf kitsch, I'd suggest something like frangipani, always popular and fitting, and a lot bigger to allow a bit more "air" in them...maybe something for a more surf approved painted finish perhaps

Hey there... Yes, I think that would be possible on a kahler, it is even possible to cut piezos if youare careful...or there are still other alternatives...easy to break though, hard to solder to...but it is possible. I dare say it would give more output of course. I could just lift the gain on the preamp or even add more piezos in there... Yes...as above...but potentially a bit of handling noise or picking up the sound of the trem rollers or springs and cam mechanism...that's why I started with a scheme to avoid that...but perhaps not practical. Yes...there are a few very successful piezo DIY things about and many sound terrific. I think I pointed to JohnH's, but if you search back you will find a few others that are similar. Yes...this is the thing...and patience. The neck pocket thing works for instance, but you hear the fretting hand...hmmm....that option sounds woodier though than a lot of saddle types and is an easy mod. These guitars do tend to pick up a bit of handling noise if not handled carefully. This is just generally the case with any such system. So, maybe...well see. I spent the day wiring it to a twenty-dual scheme that has a huge variety of tones (well, 22 plus various mixes) and I'm pretty impressed with the results. A few 'fender' like tones such as the two inner coils of the HB's, some nice big almost jazz thick sounds with both HB's in series to make a huge HB with a lot of power...and a phase switch that can hollow out the tones, some of them vaguely acoustic in nature. The thing with this guitar is that I am seeking to make it pretty bullet proof, and not to have anything 'kinda ok' or experimental about it. I have other guitars to do that kind of thing on. I'm also planning this guitar for a particular project, it does not require 'strumming' guitar parts or anything particularly "acoustic" but a bit of a percussive edge would have been a nice addition. So...yes, keep it up...do some searches for other piezo things about, there are some good ones...it can be made to work...if it is really what this guitar needs, I'm not sure. So, will be doing a set up and eventually posting a thread on it...good luck though, keep on plugging away... ... PS I was wondering, has anyone attempted to use a small transformer instead of active electronics to adjust the impedance of a piezo to that of around a high impedance guitar pickup so they actually could be mixed?

Thanks wez... See, you need a precise tuner, and differing compensation for each string...so, not for your average tinkering guitar player...so a select market. Something that would work on all guitars, be height adjustable and didn't require any mods to the guitar might be at least a pre-requisite for any 'venture'...but even then the market is so small compared to the cost or producing such a product...as this seems to be the aim, it is likely to disappoint as a marketing venture I suspect... You can't fight what people like...there are reasons to have bigger frets and such...but really, there are some benefits to advanced players too. If you use jumbo frets and a good technique, your touch should be such that you are only pressing down enough to sound a note...so there is no fretboard contact and hardly any friction. It certainly can be a different feel, imagine playing a scalloped board with no fretboard at all under the fingers...or a sitar... Now, a really advanced player can also compensate for some tuning anomalies by pressing a little harder into some notes of a chord to bring things into 'tune'. I tend to avoid a lot of chording of say A major in open position as that C# on the b string is a typical problem. Minor chords don't sound so bad, but it's those maj3rds that get you everytime. Avoid the b string in the very lowest frets for such intervals. Remember the whole temperament of western diatonic tuning is out of whack with the more 'natural' order of things and major thirds are the biggest problem to the ear. You will notice that a lot of music now days, just avoids them all together, hence the power chord. That's not to say that it wouldn't be nice to have a guitar that plays a bit more "in tune" but with all the fussing over strobe tuners or BF offsets and special notes that permanently alter a guitar...and the fact that the people you are playing with are unlikely to be using the same tuning system...how many are really going to want to invest in such a scheme on their prized instrument. I loved the LSR on my last project, but in truth, it is about 1mm too wide for a squier over a real fender....and I'd consider it even with my LP project with trem, but it is completely wrong for that one in terms of width and not prepared to cut the board to make the thing work. The same concerns should face anyone considering such an "innovation" as you propose. So, if thinking commercially (no reason not to make things for yourself of course) I doubt that you are on a winner there...also, I believe there are a number of patent already and if you were to attempt it, someone would sue or close you down, and very unlikely that you'd get a patent yourself for such a thing. In fact, I don't have time to look it up...but there has been something very similar to what you proposed on a commercial guitar before...a little obscure and in some of my books...and not the prettiest thing...but the whole nut job was a commercial failure there too and was decades ago...so you know...just saying, these are the things that need to be considered. I doubt that you will have many takers to go back to the old frettless wonders of the 50's, though I admit I quite liked them too. But having recently switched guitars again and going back to quite high jumbo frets and lower action, I'm quite liking the slinky feel of the things...and less out of tune-i-ness than the higher action, lower fret tele I've been playing the last couple of years (good as that is). But then, I don't play with much distortion at all...the way a lot of people play guitar the issue of primarily open high strings on the lower fret area is hardly a concern, and you are rarely going to hear a maj3rd interval down there these days on guitar anyway.

I looked into this for a while...rejected the ugly things available...so I doubt there is a market... The lower strings of a guitar are inherently out of tune, that is the way it is, can be improved...or you can avoid a lot of it with playing technique like I do. I did play with this a bit on my acoustic...adding some shims of nut material in front of the nut to bring it forward. I also added an LSR to the last build, which means cutting into the fingerboard...not for your average person to do...so not a fit and play proposition, and I was conscious that if it wasn't as good as I ahd hoped...I had made a big commitment to the thing by cutting out the slot...no going back! This would be a huge deterrent...real custom builders can do it themselves for the instrument and players, string gauges and such in question. By far the biggest problem is badly set up guitars...oh, and bad players...they too aren't going to be cutting into their guitars... However, a height adjustable nut, like the way an LSR fits may well be something interesting...certainly makes setting up the nut a whole lot easier to get perfect. A really good set up on a decent guitar should end up pretty darn good... So, sure why not, but everyone is going to wasn't something different, different string spacings, different curvature, different string gauges...it would be a production nightmare...and having to carve up a guitars fretboard is going to turn most people off right there. Then there is the various guitar's headstocks, string splaying...and of course, you got to make it from a material that will allow for tremolo systems...and then compete with all the products already hyped up on the market. There is something to it, but the better the set up, the less there is, the better the player and you won't even hear it. Coincidentally I am working on a new neut concept for my new guitar in the works...maybe I should look into compensating a little...is there a table of 'offsets for such things, or is it done by ear? How do you guys work out how far forward to move the nut and for different strings? ... hahaha...I just remembered...a lot of guys push so hard into those jumbo frets, they sound out of tune where ever they play...can't imagine the sound on a scalloped fretboard...

If you want to do it properly, something like this doesn't sound bad...buffering all of the parts and a little tone shaping. Piezo/mag circuit diy johnH The moore could well have separate processing outside the guitar for the piezo, but the enormous mismatches in impedance can't help but load things down. I have done the neck pocket things a few times and it can work with a preamp...this guitar is set necka nd very solid though. Of course. the problem with the neck piezo thing is that it can pick up a lot of thumping from the fretting fingers. I play very clean and increasingly precisely with a lot of space, and no band to mask things...so I really can't afford to have a poor sound that is going to pick up handling noise. I can't be running separate amps for different systems either. Been researching some interesting options for pickup selection. And I did get to hear the pickups in the guitar for the first time, sound remarkably good. Plenty powerful enough to split and still get a good sound as well. It's a shame, as I really was hoping to add this feature from the start, but I can see now that I'd have to make the whole guitar active and do a bit more tine shaping...and probably have to move the piezo...and even then I might have something that is so sensitive to handing noise I'd not enjoy or use it very much. SO far all I got is a lot of ugly high end zing and hollowness, I could add in the pickups without loading them, or so it seemed, but the sound was just not there. I think the way to go then at this stage is to go for coil switching options and such much as you have put forward in some ways. However, I really couldn't live with these kind of mixing and interactive controls as presented here on a working live guitar. At this stage, I'm looking at an improved Jimmy Page scheme which provides I think about 22 options...there should be a few in there that will prove useful. On my real LP, I have alternating coil splits that are very versatile, and I have heard of coil swap / series parallel circuits today that look like they have a lot of potential...but got to stay simpler these days and bullet proof. I'll be taking photos and showing a few tips and ideas on the thing along the way though...so look out for that...now, back to my flu...

Well...I did try a few tests on the piezo and was not too impressed...just a simple piezo with a preamp...but the high end sounds just a little much to me and for the whole project, perhaps a little unreliable There are good sounds to be had that approach acoustic like...as ansils post tends towards. It isn't a mod that I could see me getting around easily... So, considering a few options, but may just settle for the JP like wiring and move on to setting up the guitar before I get carried away with piezos in it.

I've done something like this on a strat in order to attempt piezo hex signals for the hex sustainer drivers...but it is painstaking work... I really don't need to have that kind of separate outputs not do I expect it really to sound like an acoustic...as what I am intending isn't with a "band" if the sound isn't right, it just wont get used. A lot can be done to get acoustic like tones though with wiring tricks...a strat alone can give a bit of this flavour. They must surely have some kind of impedance matching device...perhaps they use transformers...I was wondering if something like that might be of use in my project... Piezos will make a noise, typically very brittle, but the impedance mis match is pretty extreme...mixing them with high impedance pickups like standard passives is generally a bad plan. I am a bit concerned, and I have heard it said it can't be done, that if the preamp makes the piezo to low impedance, how will the mags cope with a mix with this signal. The advice is typically to preamp both, or at least a buffer...i'd rather have the possibility of running the guitar without a battery...things can go wrong of course... Thanks for the input though...I'm still puzzling over it

You might want to see if you can find a complete piezo system...I might have a bit of a search later...but there are some cheap things about for stringed instruments. The manufacturer Artec comes to mind. My daughter plays violin and I have two electric instrument here, on I bought for myself, looks like a pretzel...but only cost $60 new...it's made of plastic, but does play and actually sounds quite good plugged in. It has a piezo strip that sits under the bridge a preamp with volume and tone on the instrument, and can even power headphones from it... On it's own it would probably be cheaper to buy something like this and scrap it for the electronics. I know I ahve a few piezo systems for guitars around here of name brands with preamps with graphics and at least one branded fender and has a chromatic tuner in it...again, it wasn't that dear to buy...not sure if ideal for this application, but they are all shielded in metal boxes and ready to install with mini pone plugs and such for connections... Otherwise, there are a heap of preamp kits about that might well do the job adequately...in the sustainer project and other things I have used the "PreCHAmp" preamp and intend to try it myself for an electric guitar piezo project I am working on. I know I ahve used them before for this application with a bit of success, so you may want to consider that too. On a basic level, you are really trying to get a bit of an impedance match, tone and such could be adjusted at the amplifier side of things outside of the instrument... good luck pete