onelastgoodbye

NICE!!

I got my 2 x 2 x2 mm neo's from conrad; here Like Pete said the poles attract themselves very much, so you have a very strong, but very confined field. Problem is they have to be so close to the strings for the driver to work, that the strings easily get stuck to them! My dual rail needed to be very close to the strings anyway though, because of it's tiny proportions (no core either). Over all, it did work well...performance was about the same as the same coils with the ceramic magnet and hardened steel cores, EMI didn't differ much either. I suspect you will fare better with your new understanding of field and coil sizing. Your cage certainly looks promising..note from the pic above that my magnets are mounted on a flat piece of steel, I suppose the ends of that plate could have been spraying a lot of field/emi; thereby diminishing efficiency.

On my absolute crap single coils I get: Anyone following this tread with single coil pickups of any variety, could you measure... 1~ the width of the poles (I get about 5mm) 2~ the span of the poles (I have been working on 55mm, but have added a mil on each end to be sure) 3~ the bobbin width (if you can take a cover off...I am working on 15mm max) 4~ the amount of space you estimate there is between the cover and the bobbin for the driver wires to get by (I get less than 1mm) 5~ an opinion on the effect of raising the cover 1mm or so, effectively lowering the pole pieces.

are we having our second sustainer thread flame war then? only took like 180 pages from the first one... now now people....so much fuss about a device so small (unlike this thread it keeps getting smaller too) :D let's not forget we are on an internet forum, purely relying on written word and as such doesn't convey human emotions very well. I'm not sure how feel about all of this so I've added a few emoticons of which you can pick one for yourselves. please forgive me my crappy attempt at humour. It is not one of my strong points. However, as recent posts are going a bit overboard I didn't want to aggravate things by continuing in the same manner.

err...no. Let me get back to you on that

Crep, your experience with the single coil driver seems to be similar to mine (I also use an emg, btw)...lots of noise and interference. I used a little gem amplifier, wich is essentially the same as the ruby, but without the preamp section. As the emg's already have an internal preamp that provides a buffered signal, you can leave it out. The only drivers that really worked well for me were the dual rail drivers, bassically a humbucking version of the single coil driver. They made a huge difference to me (and Col), strangely enough PSW didn't notice that much difference ( maybe because he uses single coil pickups?) Could be the emg's are too sensitive, but most likely it has something to do with the power supply (9v battery for the pickup could be interfering with the 9v battery for the driver). Try turning the connector on the bottom of the EMG around (reverses polarity), might make a difference. Also, make sure that your driver is really really well potted. if it's not, you can feel it shaking or even hear it trembling (think of it as a speaker without a speaker coil, which is exactly what it is); If you fancy destroying your driver, you could pry it open and you'd might find the inner windings are still loose (because the glue didn't penetrate far enough). So always add glue while winding, not just afterwards. and use a stick or something to push it in and 'compact' the driver. Hope it helps, Tim

You know Pete, from reading R.G.'s post I get the impression he was actually joking... from his earlier posts here I never could really tell whether he was seriously trying to help or just patronizing our ideas, there was always a strange smell of irony/mockery. I sincerely HOPE he was joking, otherwise some curse-words would be in order that would surely get me banned..as a long-time supporter of this thread not only would he be trampling your soul but also mine and others'. I'd like to think I played some role in 'developing' the coreless driver bobbin...and if I was a real ass I could probably claim some sort of rights to the jiggamathingie, but really....the whole point of my efforts, col's, Bancika, transient, Curtisa, and many others was to improve upon Pete's original ideas and do something nice for the guitar community. Nothing of this would have happened if it weren't for that first post. Even this production kit was primarily meant to help people out with all the difficulties of sourcing wire, winding, installing etc.... not to make big bucks, but because Pete is a nice guy who is willing to run a considerable financial risk just so we don't have to worry about where to find our wire . Then stabbing him in the back when he's already had so much to cope with.... well... I can't really think of an appropriate word for it. As common as this malpractice may be in product development, you are not dealing with big anonymous corporations here, but with real people who are simply trying to get by and don't have the resources for full-time patent lawyers (an evil in it's own right); It's all insignificant in the grand scheme of things, but you don't hit a man when he's down. period. Pete, you seem pretty stressed out (as far as one can tell anything over a message board); maybe a break or vacation is in order; remember there are other things in life than the sustainer project. *edit* I've just seen R.G. 's reply...seems it was in "good" humour and to a certain extent i may even have to agree with him on some issues .. there IS a serious danger you are setting yourself up for dissapointment by leaving the complete diy-route and going into a commercial venture; but I think you are already aware of that. On the other hand, there has always been talk about selling the system commercially (box and everything) and this thread provides more than enough info for someone with some skill to replicate his own DIY version anyway (as proven multiple times in the past); so I disagree with R. G 's statement that the casual reader of this thread would (well, ...could) be resentful. People have a choice of either buying or DIY-ing. Anyway, don't let this escalate into a flame war with R.G. or anything;surely his wording could have been more subtle but if you read his reply after a few deep breaths and some sleep, I think you might be able to see his point. Much support sent, Tim

+1 Take it one step at a time. Find some beta-testers (preferrably with different types of guitars) first. And hold off any big investments until you get feedback. I'd also try and contact some people who have actual guitar-related business experience; like rhoads56 and kevan (bet he'll now his way around the licensing thing); though you'll probably have thought of that yourself already. Otherwise, let me know if I can be of help with simplifiyng the manufacturing : prototyping side of things etc.., you know where to find me Tim p.s. have you thought about alternatives to epoxy, like polyurethane or polyester? Usually cheaper and a bit less toxic hassle.

I feel you are being to nice a guy here, Pete....please do not skimp on the pricing! Just calculate what a driver costs you: the materials, packaging, postage, labour, etc...(we'll leave the R&D out) and double or triple that. Realistically, that should be your price. Consider that the other systems easily cost $ 200 - 300 WITHOUT installation; and your sytem has several major benefits over these: invisible, no loss of pickups, major support, way less complicated, no routing, etc.. market your product around these advantages, not around the price, that's NEVER a good idea (I'm not saying you are, just be careful). If people aren't willing to put up the money for a good product (even if it's beta) then it's probably not worth building these things and making the investment. Hopefully this all works out really well for you just remember this (from a wise man who said it much better than I ever could): "If you take the time to build a quality product, then price it like a quality product. The wayside is littered with failed builders who priced themselves out of business." >LK

Nice going, psw. Your single coil retrofit is very much like what I had in mind when I first experimented with the bobbinless coils. The small connectors are called jst connectors and they come in many different shapes. Still reading up on this every day, but right now I'm working on something else..could be of great benefit to the sustainer project (yes it cuts pcb's too )

Pete, I don't know about the side driver... I built one some time ago using my core-less coils ( these coils ); much to the same specs of yours. 3 blades, neo mags, 6 mm wide. While it did work and EMI was lower than those same coils in regular humbucking configuration; the efficiency was significantly lower as well. So you had to turn the power up, which resulted in increased EMI. catch22... Tim

internet access was down so I couldn't post earlier...but that,s great stuff. you've given me some ideas for future drivers, bit of a bummer though since I won't be able to join in on the driver/circuit development for another couple of weeks. Funny also how much the driver starts to resemble the renders from page 30 and on. I think the aliminum strip could be replaced by matte acrylic sheet and backlit? since this thread is also about philosophy;I feel like I should add some thoughts Product design is a practice for the chronicly dissatisfied..(just like custom guitarbuilding or any 'creative' act for that matter), which is as much a blessing as it is a curse. These things keep you up at night and chances are that if you are perfectionistic/obsessive/undecisive in this area; then you are also in other areas of life, which translates into how you deal with persons and situations. To some you're genius, to others just...weird. in both cases you're misunderstood. So in essence it's a very frustrating way of life (more a 'way of mind'); I heard only about 1/3 of working, finished prototypes actually make it into production, with no guarantee for succes (or return on investment). But you need those setbacks and frustration to get to the good stuff. Nothing is for free, except on the internet . The hardest things in product development are making (the right) choices and letting go of ideas/designs...I feel I've become pretty good at the 2nd one. I tend to enjoy the building/development more than the final result, so it's easier to give away my babies once they're finished. I guess ideas and concepts are more difficult because you'll never be sure whether they'd have worked or not. Most people probably think that brainstorming/being creative is the hardest part, but in truth that is a skill that can be trained fairly easily . Tim

Pete, seems you,re ona roll! Good to see you enjoying the finer things in life again, like die grinders and winding coils. Keep in mind the coils tend to "spring back" a little when you release them from the clamps, especially with the pva, and be careful they don't stick to the clamps. that's definately the most difficult part.You don't have removable cores, though, so that should minimize the problem. I'm surprised you were able to cut those blades so easily...mine were some sort of hardened steel (wood scrapers) and I'm not looking forward to ever doing it again (hopefully I won't have too anyway, with the internal neo mags). Tim

@ Primal: since the coils are angled, they also put out less magnetic force straight at the strings; so you'll have to use more power, which in turn causes more emi. I did some tests with coils on their side and though it works, the performance was not good enough (worse than the regular rail) to justify the more complicated construction. @Thruth_David and Zfrittz6: thanks for the diagram, I'll try that, but it 'll have to wait for a couple of weeks.. Tim

Well, I can't get my agc to work with the little gem and I have no idea where to start troubleshooting... what i've done is connect the output to the input of the little gem (the basic ruby, no preamp or filtering); connect the two grounds (which is also signal ground); and connect both circuits to +9v (diagram for the acg says 6v, but according to the datasheet of the tda 7284, it should be able to take 9v, though this does increase output voltage, so maybe I'm overloading the little gem). I'm basically getting static, the pot on the preamp (is it supposed to be linear or audio taper?) controls the pitch of the static, the pot on the little gem controls the volume (obviously). Anything I'm obviously doing wrong here? Note that this with an active emg running @18v. The little gem works well enough on it's own, as it always has, but come to think of it, it is near maximum gain (pins 1 and 8 bridged)...probably too much. The coil is also shaking quite heavily so that might be it. any and all help welcome. Tim

Made some progress on zfrittz6's circuit...proper stripboard this time. the battery is just to give an idea of the size of the circuit.

Here's how I built mine, the magnet lies flat on it's side and sits inbetween the two cores so one core is S, the other N. the width of the magnet will determine much of the maximum size of the coils...winding the coils is basically the same as for a single driver, you just wind them to half the resistance (4 ohms), then connect them in series. OR you wind em both to 13,5 -16 ohms and connect them in parallel. The final resistance will amount to 8 ohms in both cases, so you can still use the fetzer-ruby or whatever you used before. pretty straightforward and no more difficult than a single driver. Now, IF you want to build them as small as I did you'll need a jig to clamp up the sides of the coils while the glue (epoxy) dries. that's a bit harder Something like this if you want to get real fancy>>> this illustrates the basic idea: shot from above, you can see how the coil is 'compacted' Ok, here is the link that details it all.. only took 20 mins of skimming the thread to find it lol : http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.ph...st&p=295150 Pete, I'll PM you tonight about maybe doing a write-up of the thread and tutorial stuff... it's getting a bit out of hand; can't even find my own posts anymore

Another ACG....I made stripboard schematic of zfrittz6's agc circuit featured on page 153. It is similar in fuction to Col's circuit, but based on the (unfortunately, rare) TDA7284.

NICE!

Hey psw, just noticed you posted. As you may or may not be wondering I'm still struggling witth my agc circuit (which is the circuit zfrittz posted on page 153) unfortunately it didn't work the first time, so now I'm waiting for some stripboard to do some 'proper' soldering. I just hope i didn't already fry the tda7284, they're rare enough as it is... I'm also busy working on the carbon guitar which has been a royal pain in the you-know-what so far (well at least I've learned a lot); so that's why I don't post that often. Oh Col... I thought about sending you my spare tda7284yadayada as you mentioned (long ago) you had a hard time sourcing one...interested? I'll have to make sure I didn't fry the first one though . Tim

Flash, the single coil drivers will always be microphonic to an extent, as in you'll get feedback and squealing when it's to close to the pickup. This is normal as you put quite a bit of power in there so don't worry about that. If it is microphonic in a way that you can actually hear the driver itself producing sound (buzzing), that is bad, and it means the driver is not potted well enough. Give the pva glue a day or two to cure completely and back off the power from the circuit a bit. You might want to pry open one of your 'failed' coils and I think you'd be quite surprised how loose the inner windings still are (at least I was with mine). I tend to smear glue every 10 winds, and really push it in with a small plastic stick. It also helps a lot if you can clamp up the sides of the coil after winding (that's the key to making real compact coils). Maybe this can clarify that a bit: Tim

keep in mind the pictures are about twice as big as the real thing... Col, it's a dual pickup; same coils I've used in the previous incarnations of the driver. Still haven't gotten round to testing zfrittz's acg circuit so I'm still using the little gem without preamp. As you can see the circuit can be built with discrete components, you can even go ptp . As for the side driver, it was a dual driver with the magnets inside the coils as portrayed in nakamura's patents (like a stacked humbucker with 3 steel bobbins and the magnets as cores, then flip the whole thing sideways). I kind of expected the low output with the coils angled 90 degrees; but the emi was a bit of a surprise. I'd say it was almost as bad as my early single coil designs...so much for the theory of active shielding etc. It's strange how impervious most efforts have been to shielding and I suspect sustainiac and fernandez suffer from the transformer effect as well; hence why they never commercialised a mid driver. Strangely enough the fizz can make for an interesting effect, especially when you use the driver ebow style moving it over the strings. I'm still hoping for a solution though, starting with the acg. the parallel thing sounds cool ( I hear emg's are actually parallel as well), not sure about the wire size. I did try to wind a 16 ohm coil with 0.3mm wire and it got pretty big. Number 4 from the right on the pic a few posts back; it used like 32 metres of wire and slipped off the jig because of it's size. That's also when I decided not to use pva anymore. Tim

Special post to cheer up psw; I've managed to construct a 2 mm driver with the neo internal magnets.The cabling is bigger than the driver itself! Has about the same performance as the ceramic magnet, maybe a little less output but negligable. I've only tested with the low E (actually tuned to D) and A strings, but so far it's quite happy in the mid position, even up to 8-10 mm of the pickup without squealing. The distortion and fuzz remains though. I'm starting to think it has more to do with the pickup than the driver as i can get the same fuzz when holding the coils over the pickup, without any magnet or core . I've also constructed a dual side driver (those coreless coils have proven their worth in experimenting) with the neo's and while it does work, output is pretty weak and EMI pretty bad (very bad really). It definately needs more juice than the 'regular'humbucking driver. And as you turn up the juice, EMI gets worse. I'd advise not to go the route of the side driver but to concentrate on the raildriver (not that my tests are conclusive or anything). pics tonight... Tim

It does look like the potting could be better some loose windings on the outside....if you're willing to destroy it and remove the bobbins you can examine how good/bad the potting was. It can make a big difference in output and feedback (squeal) resistance. I'm personally not a big fan of PVA glue, but I wouldn,t expect you to use epoxy right away anyway. Try winding pretty tight, apply glue while winding and push/stroke it in with a small stick...when you're done winding, apply more glue and wrap some tape around the driver (tightly) to really squeeze it in there. Most importantly, don't get discouraged, it takes a few tries depending on your skill/experience. Yours looks better than my first try (the left one, also PVA): oh, and steel is fine

I was thinking something like that, yeah. Obviously for a side driver ala the nakamura(?) patent the neo's would be perfect, but I can't really think of a way to implement them in our 'regular' humbucking bi-longitudinal stand-alone driver AND retain the humbucking effect as one coil needs to be N and the other S. Maybe if I angle the magnets 45 -30 degrees ( that'll be a fun jig!) ? The field does seem to be a lot weaker on the side. The real problem is even these tiny neodymiums are too strong to use as an internal core right under the strings...certainly when the driver is only 1mm away from the strings, but as long as I can't find some sort of custom tiny ceramic bar, it'll have to do. Just seems a bit silly to go through all the trouble of building miniature coils, and then use a pickup bar magnet which is 3 times the size of the coil . I'll keep keeping you in my thoughts and lots of Mojo sent to you, Pete Tim