mistermikev

35 minutes ago, ADFinlayson said:

My sarcasm was obviously lost over the internets.

Shipping American woods to UK is expensive unfortunately. 2 ziricote carve tops just set me back about £350 (not too bad as the last one was £250). I don’t even bother trying to get maple from USA. If I stuck to European maple and walnut, I could get 5 or 6 for that money, but I’ve got stacks of those. 

So if someone is selling a nice board that I could potentially get 2 tops out of for $45, it makes sense to spend another $80 on postage.

if you’re popping down to get some, I look forward to seeing how it turns out, it’s definitely interesting looking stuff 

my sarcasm detectors might need new brushes.  right on, well I'll message him tomorrow night and see if it's worth the ride.  will let you know how that goes.

Just now, ADFinlayson said:

sadly his response was "no"

ah... your post had a thumbs up so... I thought THAT was the two letters.  again, I imagine he's like waiting for you to tell him you're gonna pay him with a money order then OOOPS my boss made it out for 2k, but just cash it and give me back 1555 and keep the difference... you know. 

I imagine shipping 8/4 10" x 4' would be pretty spensive?  probably well over the price of the wood no?

1 hour ago, ADFinlayson said:

Yes I guess a duplicarve would be the next more efficient tool, but given the cost of them and how much space they require, they're never in my mind as a viable option. I think if I had that cash and space, I'd end up learning to CNC. 

Oh btw, I got in touch with that seller about shipping to the uk, his response consisted of two letters

right on... so I assume that was "OK"?  I don't know what the question was but I assume you asked about if he'd ship to the uk?  I'm guessing anyone who contacts him that is not locally - he's going to think it's a scam... that's what I would think anyway... so he probably is going to be a bit offputting at first.

1 hour ago, Bizman62 said:

A kg (kilogram) is about 2 lbs, roughly.

AFA angle grinders, they usually come with a horizontal foregrip which helps a lot since the thick main frame usually serves as the main handle. The bigger ones have a thinner rear handle as do the cordless ones.

looked around a bit... pretty cheap on craigslist. 

49 minutes ago, ADFinlayson said:

 

I think my trim router weighs more than my angle grinder. The shape that the grinder cuts in the wood is entirely down to how you hold it - if you hold it so the flap disc is almost parallel with the wood, it will take next to no material away, so you can hold it flat and almost stroke the wood in long passes and it will take away little material but quite uniformly. 

You've really got to try it to understand, but it really is the most efficient way to carve without a CNC in my opinion. My grinder was £45 + £2.99 flap discs (one flap disc did 2 guitars before I changed it) so it was an inexpensive gamble that paid off for me.

I would assume it's a lot like a more aggressive da sander.  sm spinning wheel but different grip and more torque.  I would imagine the MOST efficient way to carve without CNC is a duplicator... but I smell what yer steppin' in.

33 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

A 115 or 125 mm diameter grinder weighs less than 2 kg, or 4 lbs if you prefer that.

that is surprisingly light.  I don't know what those kg things are, but I'd probably go for that model as as 2 < 4.  Also, which weighs more... a pound of kg or a pound of lb?  also, when you go to your grinder... do you oil up the beck first or after?

I have a pretty light belt sander (6lbs ish) but it's the weight plus the pull of it that kills me.  Lot better than those porter cable monsters but still I can only use that thing for about 10 mins.  I'm sure I could manage w the grinder should it come to that, and will keep it in mind for when I get to that point, so thanks for the info.

11 minutes ago, ADFinlayson said:

After carving ziricote by hand, I would def use an angle grinder carving that next time. Just because it would blunt my gouges and planes so quickly that I spend as much time sharpening as I did carving. If that stuff above is any kind of rosewood, I would use an angle grinder on that too - or a router, your les tele carve method seamed to work well.

It's a lot harder to screw up a carve with an angle grinder than you might think. Even with maple, I found I really had to press quite hard to take a chunk out of it. You've just got to almost stroke the wood with the angle grinder and it takes a skim off the top. 

those angle grinders look heavy and my experience with belt sanders is: my back can't take much of that.  Second it removes a lot of material in a way that is not bound to a form.  Seems like it would be some work to wrangle it into symmetry.

I could see setting up a router jig similar to my radius top jig, that would have the lp carve profile instead of radius, and smaller at one end.  This could make short work of smoothing the north/south pattern.  Who knows, could always fall back to using an angle grinder... but I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to explore possible alternatives.  If at all possible I'd like to try to substitute careful consideration for brute force.

3 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

Personally I haven't used it but I know a couple of guys who have. It's a method brought to wider audience by Ben Crowe at Crimson Guitars and even some of their students building their first instrument ever with basically no woodworking experience since schooldays have successfully done that. They all say that the noise and high speed is the most scary part of it, the actual carving being surprisingly subtle.

Wasn't there just one guy who had routed all cavities free hand perfectly along pencil lines? Same power, same speed, same potential of making firewood.

 

sure, there are lots of folks who have done the angle grinder, and yes I think I did see a gentleman route everything by hand.  Both fine approaches.  That said... you have to pick the approach that is right for you.  For me, my hammer is the router.  I think it could have gone a lot easier with more template layers... and if I had a giant compressor I would love to have a dynabrade air sander with the right pad/paper.  Furthermore the scraper set I got is already getting worn down so perhaps I need to learn about burnishing or find a set made out of better metal. 

I thought what I said was funny... but you two had me in stitches. 

1 hour ago, Bizman62 said:

An angle grinder with a rasp type disk might be the best tool for that wood.

 

 

that'd probably make short work of it! (or firewood)

nice job not letting the blue get too dark.  not an easy feat!  that brown really pairs well with it.  nice work.

31 minutes ago, ScottR said:

It might be wasted as a body, but I think it would make a gorgeous top. Big pieces are supposedly rare. Heavy can always be countered by creative chambering and carving. I'd love to know if that was what that really is.

SR

right on, well I don't want to message him yet as there is zero chance of me getting down that way till saturday (traffic makes a 1 hour drive = 3 hours) but later in the week I'll probe him for some more info on what he thinks it is, how thick it actually is, how recent it was cut, etc.

12 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

Think about the hand carved figurines made with very poor hand tools out of the hardest woods imaginable they sell as souvenirs in Africa (that's a smallish cape between the Atlantic and Indian Oceans). Your tools most likely are superiour to theirs, even the elbow grease powered ones. Plus your income doesn't depend on how fast you can make something out of it.

right on... well my recent experience trying to carve a maple top was really more physical effort than I'm willing to do very often (yes I'm that lazy) but I have an idea on how to setup a jig to do the majority of a les paul carve via router... then again not sure I want to be running a router on something that is hard as a rock!  from what I gathered, that ironwood gets it's name from the fact that it is "hard as iron"... which doesn't sound like fun!  but oh that color... might be worth it.

11 minutes ago, ScottR said:

I've seen a lot of it in mercados in Mexican border towns and San Antonio, always in the form of carved figures. I've always wanted some. I've been tempted to buy a figurine and re-carve into something else. The figures were not finished especially well, and I was dying to see how it would look if finished and polished thoroughly. We have a member, that hasn't been active for a few years, @NotYou, that used to love it for fretboards.

The stuff is very hard and heavy....but possible to carve apparently. I've seen beautiful jack plane handles made from it.

SR

so... is it heavy like "you wouldn't want to build a body from it" or heavy like "you wouldn't even want to use it for a top"?

4 hours ago, ADFinlayson said:

I like em, if they're 2-3" thick you could make some nice bookmatched carve tops out of those. Mind sharing the source?  

don't mind at all.  it's on facebook marketplace... just a guy selling locally.  https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/988511004881180/?surface=product_details

if you reach out to him lmk.  I was thinking I might shoot a line closer to the weekend as he appears to be about an hour south of me.  you can see the one piece that is turned sideways (under the oil) is what appears to be 2" thick(ish).  I don't know if all are.

10 minutes ago, ScottR said:

Definitely not cottonwood. Possibly a rosewood. I don't know of any that grow in Arizona, but cocobolo grows on the west coast of Mexico--not so far away. And I've seen rough cut pictures of cocobolo that look a lot like that.

http://hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/cocobolo.htm

Desert Ironwood also grows in Arizona.

http://hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/ironwood, desert.htm

Take a look at the many rosewoods on that site and see if you find something even closer looking.

SR

I wondered about mexi cocobolo as it does look like some I've seen, but admittedly that 'desert' ironwood looks spot on!  good call.

edit: "impossible to work with hand tools" - hmm... sounds hard/heavy!  man it is beautiful stuff tho. 

Just now, ADFinlayson said:

A beck that isn't oiled isn't a beck that's worth listening to frankly. 

The binding on my builds isn't think at all normally, I use the smallest rebate my router bits will do which is about 1,5mm, it maybe just looks thicker because it's rounded over maybe? My rationale for thinner binding is that there is more fret with tang so it's easier to get the fret ends to stay down over the binding.

i think yer right with the rounded = looks thicker.  looks nice.

1 minute ago, ADFinlayson said:

I'm going to be oiling the beck so I'm not too worried about damaging lacquer when I do the fret ends, although when I mentioned knocking off the sharp edges above, a rough dressing is essential what I meant.

when you oil beck... it's best to have him sing "loser".  also good to be drinking becks. 

fretboards are looking great.  doing some slotting myself right now... I hate this part.  I like it when it's right... but hate the work and constant fear of slip/scratch.  putting a pretty large rollover on my current and am really liking the feel but prefer the look of bound neck.  might have to try the thicker wood binding like you do to get the best of both worlds.

anywho, be careful... beck might take a liking to you if you oil him too much!

1 minute ago, ADFinlayson said:

I bought it from WD Music UK on Amazon, the trem and bits came in a clear plastic bag with no markings, labels or spec sheet (everything else Gotoh that I've bought comes in a Gotoh box with a leaflet). When I queried it with the seller, they said that the product came in a clear plastic bag to reduce their/shipping storage costs because apparently they order so much from Gotoh... But the metal felt soft, saddles were flimsy, trem block wobbled when fully tight. It was clearly fake but fortunately they let me return it. 

dang, that's crazy that WD sold it (note to self... avoid WD).  Like you... all the gotoh gear I've bought has been in gotoh packaging... in fact that is exactly what I look for on ebay auctions now because I've seen so many fakes.  Usually deal with philedelphia luthier.  If I don't see gotoh packaging - avoid.  That said... I have bought some gotoh from allparts that came in allparts packaging... but it's legit gotoh so... who knows. 

I've recently found a place that has great prices on gotoh - japarts, and they are international.  The shipping is a bit more for me ($30 for two sets of tuners, probably less for you) and wait time isn't great... but they have everything.  fyi.

4 hours ago, curtisa said:

Oil bottle is a nice touch

Rosewood and Cottonwood are two very different timbers. Unless it goes by different common names based on where you live, Cottonwood is a genus of one of the Poplars. That being the case, that's the darkest looking Poplar I've ever seen

There's not an awful lot of straight, tight grain in those photos, so usefulness as a neck or fingerboard material is a bit questionable. Bodies or tops may be an option, but again there's a lot of strange grain directions going on there in a small area that would make me a bit leery of jumping straight on board. I'd be asking questions of the seller like, 'how thick?' or 'how dry?' His response may help guide your decision...

very much appreciate the response/wisdom.  Not sure the oil can is included but I can ask (jk).  This was apparently "just cut" and the pieces are 2-3" thick.  So at a minimum it's something I'd have to store for a year or more.  I was thinking that one block would make a pretty cool body, and what lit my fire was the word "rosewood".  I wondered what sort of 'rosewood' grew in az.  I went on the wood database and tried to look for a combo of those two terms but no such luck.  As you mentioned, cottonwood is a very light colored wood so???

looking at it now, specifically the piece right under the oil... look how half way down the color changes?  to a plain tan?

I like the idea of a build in the future using something interesting and locally sourced... but perhaps this isn't it.  As you pointed out there is a lot of grain going a lot of directions so perhaps a lot of potential for splitting as this dries. 

there is a local guy who advertised as 'cottonwood/rosewood'... certainly is beautiful.  I believe he's asking $45 each.  I need more wood like I need flesh eating disease but wanted to ask: would this be dumb to pass up?  Probably not is my guess... school me.

8 hours ago, ADFinlayson said:

I bought the Gotoh vintage style trem and it was absolutely terrible, in fact I was convinced it was a fake and I sent it back for a refund, then got the Wilkinson one which is significantly better - it's a sturdy unit and I doubt you'd find much better at the price point.

This is the one I'm referring to https://amzn.to/2sULja3

where did you get your Gotoh?  I used the Gotoh vs100 for my sweetspot blue... and it was solid top to bottom... but there are some really shady dealers on ebay passing off stuff as gotoh that is def counterfit.  Had to wade through a sea of them to get to stuff I knew was legit. 

that said... wilkinson does seem to be solid stuff.  hard to go wrong. 

earlier today I saw a meme that said "woodworking is 33% planning, 33% execution, and 33% changing your plan to cover up the mistake you just made".  lord is that true for me.  anywho... I think it'll look fine but if it bothers you, you could put a cool square insert of some exotic wood in there around the entire pickup - call it a natural pickup ring.  you could put binding around the inside of the pickup cavity (been wanting to try this myself).  the important thing is to realize - it's never as bad as it seems (unless it's me... then it's way worse!)

ooh, just thought of another one... do up some waterslide with a decorative surround around the pickup. 

4 hours ago, MiKro said:

@Curtisa,

yes your picture is correct in thinking of the string holes. The plate will be inlayed in the wood. also to counter act the bottom plate grub screws eating into the wood, another plate will be inlayed there as well. .

MK

 

funny, you addressed my question before I asked it... hehe.  "Nevermind the logistics... will the height screws scratch it?"  

Seems like it would def be an improvement on the acoustasonic design in that the intonation/string-height will be adjustable... good call. 

1 hour ago, sethgali said:

Something about IT guys (and gals) I guess. We think we can do anything.  Now that you mention that option, that's an easy fix. I can probably do that one almost seamlessly with the wood grain, too. You'd think I would have thought of that one. Thanks!

happy to be of some use.

50 minutes ago, sethgali said:

@willliam_q Oh yeah, I'm a big Crimson Guitars fan. And while I don't love everything Ben does, it certainly shows just how far outside of the box you can go and still have a functional piece of art. For a first attempt though, I'm going to try and avoid the checks as much as possible.

@Bizman62 I watched April's build with Crimson (also been a fan of her work for years), but don't remember her using a scarf joint. I'll have to go back and look again. I do appreciate a good bit of joinery. Unfortunately, I stored the slab standing on end while it was drying. I'm guessing this is the largest cause for the cupping.

@Andyjr1515 Woohoo!  I last measured the moisture content at the beginning of December and it was around 5.5%. Started at 15% when I got it in August. I suspect it's mostly done drying at this point (or maybe I'm too impatient to wait any longer). The guy I bought it from had it in his garage, and it's been in mine since I got it. I plan on using a prebuilt neck. Not ready to tackle bulding one from scratch on my first project.

@mistermikev I'm an IT guy for my day job so I look at a lot of forums. I could tell pretty quickly that this was a good one. Thanks for the advice on weight. I was thinking about the option of using the narrower portion of the slab and just shaving a bit off the edges, just hope it won't make the overall shape look too unbalanced.

Right now, I'm leaning towards staying away from that bad check in the end entirely. The one in the middle of the heartwood at the other end of the slab (which actually starts about 13" in from that end), while it looks potentially significant, seems like an acceptable risk. It's location would put it right in the middle of the body, which seems less critical than say near the neck pocket. I'll have a better idea how deep it is once I surface and flatten the rough cutout. Then I can stabilize it with either CA or thin epoxy. Does that sound reasonable?

Thanks for putting up with my rambling and the great responses. I don't know anybody to talk directly to about these things so I'm basically thinking out loud and looking for advice here. I'm sure once I build a dozen of unplayable instruments, I'll figure out what actually works. 

"I'm an IT guy for my day job " - I'm sorry to hear that... we've reached our quota on IT guys in here.  pretty sure everyone that freq this website is in IT/Dev!  hehe.

afa narrow... I guess it all depends on how close it is.  You could do a 1.1 piece... just use a small edge piece glue on.  Might  be a nice option. 

Seems like you are on the right track and in good hands with all the input above so... you got her otter.

15 hours ago, sethgali said:

tThanks for the great input. Good to know about the required thickness. That's something I was going to investigate as I got closer to those parts. I hadn't thought about dressing the top. That could be an opportunity for a nice show piece of wood. I'll keep it in mind.

As far as the "blemishes" go, I'm not averse to some character, I just want to make sure they aren't going to be a problem structurally. I don't think those smaller knots should be a problem, but I am worried about the larger knots and checks.

I hand-sanded the template pretty thoroughly to even out all the transitions, but it's worth hitting again. I know that the better the template, the better the final cut will be. And I do have a scale handy to check on the weight. What is considered a good target for that?

I've attached some pics of the serious problems. The first is a large check in one end. The other is a significant check within the heartwood near the other end. There are a couple of big knots at the same end as the second one, but any layout I've tried so far avoids them. For higher res pics, I created an album on Google: https://photos.app.goo.gl/WninU6UtABRt5L6n9

I tried some layout options and it appears the only area I can fit the full width of the body is the end with the check in the heartwood. It would also fit at the other end but not clear of that bad check. It also seems that due to the position of the bad check, there doesn't seem to be any way to get a second body out of this slab, even in pieces, which is disappointing.

So how bad is that check in the heartwood? I can't tell how deep it is. I don't think it goes all the way through, so maybe it's not a problem? There is a very slight check on the other side in that vicinity, but the orientation is different than this side so I don't think they're connected, but I could be wrong about that.

I can cut out enough pieces to do one body and not worry about any of the major flaws, so that's still an option. And I'm sure I can find a use for the leftover wood, just not in a guitar project.

Maybe I'm just overthinking it and over-worrying and just need to bite the bullet and do it. Any further advice is welcome.

Seth

(see what I told you about nice folks chiming in? keep in mind that you should always weight responses... there are many veterans here and while I've been a woodworker all my life... I am only on builds 5/6/7 so keep that in mind)

while I think you could probably just fill those end splits with epoxy... myself I would avoid them.  the most expensive part of a guitar is your time... and if they decide to start running further that'd suck... just not worth the risk to me.  Then again you see lots of folks using just a few sticks and the rest of the body is epoxy so... def could be done.  I guess once you have epoxy in there it's probably not going to be able to run.

What about taking your template, scaling it down a few percent, and making the center wood work?  I know you pretty much got yer template done... perhaps do this one as a 2 piece with plans to do a smaller 1 piece later?  well, something to think about anyway.  My first build was a p bass that I scaled down a hair... then again it was a 32" scale.

afa weight... for me... the lighter the better but my end goal is generally in the 7-8lb range.  that's going to be about a 65/35 split between body and neck... so IME you really need your body wood to be 4.5-5lbs or less as the bridge/pickups/finish is likely to add a pound.