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Lostheart

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Posts posted by Lostheart

  1. Great looking guitar....as for the thickness...the very first Tele prototypes from 1950 (back then it was called "Esquire" before they changed it to "Broadcaster" before they had to change the name into "Telecaster") were made out of Pine and were only 1.5'' thick compare to the 1.75'' we all know and love. So you should be perfectly fine. The only problem I see is the depth of the control plate...

  2. Mind if I ask you how you apply your shellac? Do you spray, brush or wipe the stuff on?

    If I do any finishing, I use Watco Danish Oil. Most of my products leave unfinished or get farmed out to a finisher. I try to stay away from as many toxic substances as I can.

    mm

    LOL...I hear ya! Unfortunately a finisher turned me on to building and finishing guitars myself...because he was so bad and completely messed up my nice American Fender Telecaster.

    I guess I was never into the making of older guitar repros or any type of reproduction work. Pine, a new one for me, what were they thinking back then? I know many woods have been used in the making of instruments just never knew there was a pine tele prototype, weird but cool info.

    There are also several varieties of pine, it is possible they were using southern yellow pine which is a much harder Pine and is preferred in flooring. Also a more expensive wood with a yellow tint and a somewhat nicer grain. Sorry I have no pine references to offer other than flooring examples. This pine would be more available in the southern US. North its white pine. I know you have started your project so this is for anyone else interedsted in trying pine as a guitar wood.

    Somehow I believe if you don't follow the original plan you are not recreating the original guitar to begin with and I assume the reason for your hard work. They most likely did not use a hardener, if it was even available back then, and using one may alter your intended outcome. Bodies made from soft woods, like pine, poplar, and basswood ding easily so you just have to live with it as you stated.

    Luckly you will be painting the body. Several coats of shellac would do the job under black lacquer so your finish has an even sealed surface to start with. You dont want areas where the finish soaks into the softer wood and shellac was a popular sealer even back then. Again since it is a project to reproduce a guitar, stick to the original plans you have. A sanding sealer could help level out the dips without resorting to a hardener and probably will not alter the intended outcome drastically. Just a pain building up sanding sealer filler coats.

    Good luck I hope the guitar comes out OK and you are happy with the sound. Post some picts

    Well, the very first Telecaster (prototypes) were made out of Pine...there's the infamous white Tele with the snakehead heastock and there were the two-Pickup Esquires made with a regular 6-in-line headstock but without a truss rod. Leo Fender later trashed the idea of using Pine because of the obvious reasons...it was too soft.

    Nevertheless this is a project I'm really looking forward to...and I got all the time in the world and I'm not under a deadline so making a sufficient shellac base is not a problem.

    Many thanks for all the info especially on southern yellow pine.

    >BIG SNIP<

    @ MiKro: Actually your reply sounds very good to me...I guess I'll sap some shellac on the body and try to get it as flat as possible before I shoot some Nitro...

    >little snip<

    Cheers for all the help so far!

    Sascha

    Sas,

    Obviously you know I love using shellac. I believe your next step has merit and I wish you well with the results.

    Mike

    Thanks, Mike. We'll see how it all turns out...when I encounter problems you'll probably see another Pine-thread on this board! ;-)

    Why would you use pine anyways?

    Because it was availale and I'm working on a 1950 two-Pickup Repro Esquire which had a Pine body...

    get an orbital sander hand sanding is for chumps.

    Actually someone on this board had problems taking an orbital sander to Pine...it's a very delicate and soft wood...I guess I'll stick to a sanding block for now...

    What grit paper are you using? It may be that you are sanding too much. Softwoods sand out quicker than hardwoods, and you want to step the grits up a bit quicker. This is what I have found with softwoods I use. As for the Shellac as a filler, be sure not to lay it on thick as it does not cure well when used thick(you will find it will shrink back like a son of a gun). If you want to use it as a sealer(wash coat) cool, if you want to fill use pumice and grain fill French Polish style, and actually if you have much fill to do at all go for Z-poxy as it fills better at any kind of thickness (be sure you Z-poxy before you apply Shellac, as it does not adhear well to Shellac, the Shellac sticks fine to the Z-poxy though as a top coat).

    Peace,Rich

    Thanks, Rich!

    There isn't much filling I need to do. Others have mentioned that Pine needs no grain filler but I use the filler to get rid of a couple of dents prior to sealing. I wanted to utilize the shellac as a sealer and get a hard surface which I can level prior to applying black Nitro lacquer.

    Many thanks to everyone who provided new input!

    Cheers

    Sascha

  3. @ CrazyManAndy: Wood Hardener? Do you by any chance know if it works under Shellac/Nitro?

    Sascha

    I've seen it used with nitro finishes before, but I honestly don't know the actual process. Vegasrock, who is a regular over at ReRanch and TDPRI too I think, has used it before and he is who I got the idea from. You could send him a PM or start a thread over at one of those forums and I'm sure he would be more than happy to detail his experience with the stuff for you.

    CMA

    Thanks Andy!

    Yeah, Vegasrock...I "see" him all the time on the TDPRI...I'll drop him a PM and/or search the ReRanch board to see if they got any suggestions on finishing Pine.

    Lostheart,

    I am a proponent of the pine, at least the stuff I've latched onto. I run my bodies and blanks through a Delta Drum sander after they get planed down. I then use a hardwood block with 120 grit double side carpet tape to refine the blank's surfaces. My sanding block is considerably larger than the rubber one you are using. The grain orientation on my pine may be different as well, but I've not had any problems with the Eastern White pine, which may be easier to deal with then some of the other species.

    I finish the bodies off with 220 grit. I use new, good quality abrasive as well and replace it often when it loads up. I'd recommend that you get a nice thick, larger block with a good sharp abrasive and try that out before you give up. Maybe you want to lighten up the pressure that you are putting on the block too. I'm pretty sure that the same uneven sanding effect will occur on other woods as well where there is a different density to the rings. I don't think that it not just a pine thing.

    You may want to use some shellac as a sealer coat as the pine may/will release some sap after you sand. A filler is not necessary and I question the use of a wood hardener on wood that is known to be easy to dent. Why use it ( pine)then if the dents are going to bother you? As always YMMV.

    Marty

    Hey Marty,

    thanks for chiming in...really appreciate your help. Dents won't bother me much...I plan on replicating one of the very first Tele prototypes which was made out of 1.5'' thick pine with a black coat of paint back in 1950.

    The wood hardener actually sounded good to get a perfectly flat surface. I guess same can be achieved by a few good and appropriately thick layers of sealer. I planed on using shellac anyways because I have so much of those dewaxed flakes sitting around and I figuered I put them to good use. Mind if I ask you how you apply your shellac? Do you spray, brush or wipe the stuff on? Great resultas can be achieved with all three methods, I'm just curious how people are actually doing it...

    You can use Feast Watson Pine Sealer to stop uneven staining and sanding. For sanding, mix the pine sealer half and half with polyurethane and brush it in. The wood will keep drinking in the mix for quite a while, keep working it in it will not leave a skin. When it is saturated leave it for 24 hours and your sanding worries are over. It will get a beaut colour after a few months as well, good luck with it.

    Thanks Muzz!

    For now I guess I'll stick to a shellac sealer and Nitro topcoat, but the Pine Sealer is an interesting concept I've not heard of before. Should make the wood really hard since it's polyurethane-based and I've had the "pleasure" of trying to get the stuff off of a Fender 52 AV RI body where they use a polyurethane sealer under a thin nitro topcoat.

    Really appreciate everyone taking the time to help me with my project(s)!

  4. Grain filling Pine?

    Grain filling Pine?

    OK where are the woodworkers when you need them? First why would you have to grain fill pine it has no grain to fill???? RGman thanks for a knowledgeable response though brief.

    Have you ever stained pine, well pine has soft and hard areas so it stains unevenly and is probably is the reason you are having sanding issues. You must have areas of the board which are soft, the hard soft lines generally follow the grain in my experience but it may also be a random pattern. No matter what you use the more you sand the worse it will get. Usually if I use pine (certianly not for guitar work) I havent had issues using a random orbit sander. Some pine could be really bad and it sounds like your problem. Old boards can be worse than newer wood because pine does not harden with age. if you have ever seen an old worn pine floor board, it looks wave like, because the softer areas wear faster. I have no solution other than to try a scraper blade on the hard areas (High spots) get it as flat as possible then sand lightly or scrap the piece and start again. Other options would require more expensive sanding solutions such as a thickness sander.

    My personnel opinion (please read that again) is of you want a cheap wood to use on a guitar (I can see no other reason for using pine), buy Poplar instead, Its almost the same price and as a guitar wood will provide a predictable outcome.

    +1 on Woodenspokes thoughts. Pine is a funny type of wood depending on the type. Yellow, hard, northern, lodgepole/western, they have many similarities and differences. But the short of it is very soft with hard grain lines. Not good for sanding. Sapwood is the mostly likely obtained now days no matter what subspecies, unless specified for flooring. So , I suggest you live with it, fill it, then coat it and level the clear coat or best, choose something else.

    Yep not the answer you wanted to hear but that's the nuts of it.

    MK

    Pine is popular over at TDPRI. I think it looks much better than poplar, making it better for clear, transparent, and burst finishes. Some people use wood hardener to counteract the softness and prevent easy denting.

    You may be better off just going to the sanding sealer stage and letting it do the leveling for you.

    CMA

    First off, thanks everyone for jumping in and helping me out! Really appreciate everyone checking out this thread and taking the time to comment...

    Crazy Man Andy hit the nail on the head...I'm a regular over at the TDPRI and since Pine Tele bodies are extremely popular over there I wanted to see what the fuzz is all about. But based on my experiences with this wood it is most likely my first and last attempt since all the other woods I've worked with were much easier and more rewarding.

    @ RGMan: I myself have wondered about if Pine needs to be grain filled but I was at a site that offered Pine bodies and charged you a few bucks if you wanted them to be grain filled. I never questioned that, but thinking of it...I guess you're right. But that's great for me...less work!

    @ Woodenspoke: Thank you for stating your opinion on the lowdowns of Pine...I agree 100%. Cost was never an issue, but rather curiosity. Nevertheless I got some big and decent pieces of Pine that I must put to good use.

    @ MiKro: Actually your reply sounds very good to me...I guess I'll sap some shellac on the body and try to get it as flat as possible before I shoot some Nitro...

    @ CrazyManAndy: Wood Hardener? Do you by any chance know if it works under Shellac/Nitro?

    Cheers for all the help so far!

    Sascha

  5. Is the block you are using a hook and loop type of block? ie. sandpaper attached with Velcro. Even a little bit of cushioning between the block and your sandpaper can cause the paper to sink into the softer parts of the wood grain. I would suggest using a hardwood sanding block and glue on garnet type sandpaper. Clean dust from the wood and paper frequently as you sand.

    It's one of those:

    Sheets%20-%20Rubber%20Sanding%20Block.jpg

    Those blocks are actually rubber, not plastic as I previously wrote.

    It has tiny little rubber bumps on the bottom (probably to keep a firm grip on the paper) and I never considered them to be a problem. Could it be that they are the root of all evil?

  6. You're probably sanding too much in one area. You should be taking long even strokes so you don't work away the softer part of the wood and create valleys and hills in the wood project.

    Thank you, Jon, but that sounds exactly like the way I actually sanded. Long, even strokes without too much pressure.

    For the life of me I cannot think of what I'm doing wrong here...

    Do you think the uneveness (just to give you an impression: it is quite faint and there aren't really deep ridges all over the wood) will disappear during the grain-filling and sealer-stage?

  7. All the experienced woodworkers here are probably going to crack up when they read about my problem, but for some reason I cannot get the surface of my Pine bodies sanded perfectly flat (prior to being grain-filled).

    I know about the pitfalls of coniferous wood and I tried to avoid all the obvious mistakes and sanded with a plastic sanding block and with the grain, yet the soft part of the grain seems to be sanded down a tad more than the hard grain.

    I wonder what the heck I'm doing wrong as I have sanded plenty of wood in my life and I never encountered something like that.

    Has anyone experiences with Pine and can someone please help me along?!?

    I also wondered if I shouldn't bother and try to sand out the uneveness during the sealing stage (which I plan on doing with either Shellac or some Nitro-based sealer) i.e. apply enough layers of sealer and sand it flat?

    Any help from you fellas is greatly appreciated...

  8. the Safe T planer would be the perfect tool for this job.

    That's a neat little tool...I once saw it on the LMI site...and basically forgot about it! :D:

    Might take a couple more passes than using a router but it actually looks like a safe way of trimming some wood off the back!

    CHeers for the suggestion!

    if you make a jig for the router you can do it very well.

    the jig consists of 2 rails which the body can fit between.

    something the router can sit on that will allow the router to be put onto the rails and be moved across the whole body without falling into it. this could be a piece of plywood with pieces of wood either side of the router to stop it from sagging under the weight of the router.

    i made a permanent one that i will get around to posting, but it wont be tonight as its 3am here, and i need to get to bed. might do it tomorrow if i get all the work i want done on the bass i want to do.

    The router jig sounds great! Hector suggested a Safe T-Planer which I'm probably going to use for the task but I sure would love to see...after you've had your good-night rest of course! :D

    Lostheart,

    I would not attempt to run an already shaped body through a thicknessing planer, unles your comfortable with the possibilty of ruining the body. Unless the operator of the planer has invested a lot of effort in their machine setup, or the creation of specialty jigs to overcome the problem, it is extremely risky. To better understand what causes snipe, have a look at this image:

    http://www.woodezine.com/08_2004/08_2004_i...s/snipeCADD.JPG

    If the body you are trying to run through the planer already has the neck pocket route, I'm quite sure it would be destroyed aa worse case scenario, or as a least case scenario the depth of the neck pocket rout would be affected.

    I've never yet seen a planer that does not do this to some degree. If you want to try it to see for yourself, I would make a "sacrificial" body to run through as a test to see what happens.

    If you are making your own body blanks, you could have possibly started with thinner stock. Or, run your stock through the planer before gluing up the body.

    Good luck with it.

    I hear ya...although the body has no routs atm, I already dropped the idea of taking it back to the shop and have the guys there push it through the planer.

    They already messed up a body blank once (long story...maybe I keep it for a thread entitled "Why you should do all the work yourself"!) and I don't really want to have another piece of firewood at home.

    Hector's suggestion of the Safe T-Planer sounds really promising and I need one of those gadgets anyways, so I'll probably place an order with the LMI and try my luck with it.

    Thanks to all of you for the help and guidance...much appreciated!

  9. You can use a hand plane. With a sharp blade, it won't take more than a few hours to remove a quarter inch and smooth it out again. Your arm may be a little tired when you are done, but I really enjoy the sense of accomplishment from seeing something come together that I made by hand.

    Thanks for the suggestion...I actually thought about purchasing a hand plane but for this project I need something a little faster got get the project going as I have only the remaining week to get the majority of the work done...

    I would use a router and clean it up with a sharp, fine-set plane, or sandpaper. It would probably take ten minutes to remove 1/4" of wood from the whole body with a router.

    Gee, never actually thought about using my router for this task. Thanks for bringing this up.

    Maybe I could combine the router- and the hand-plane method and come up with decent results!

    Really appreciate all the suggestions so far...anything else I haven't thought of???

  10. The main issue with this is that planers will leave just a little bit of snipe.

    Thanks for the fast reply, Jon!

    Yes...a thicknessing planer...that's the tool I was trying to describe.

    And that's the machinery that really scares me because I really do not want to ruin the body by pusing it through the planer.

    Mind if I ask you if the "sniping" (just in case it does occur) will disappear when I rout an edge radius on the guitar?

    Or will it still be prominent after all?

    Isn't there a safer (and fast) way to remove some wood from the top/back of a solid-body?

  11. Hey guys!

    I've long been lurking here and always come here first when I encounter a problem but I have rarely posted on this board.

    I really hope you fellas help me out with your fast knowledge anyways.

    Anyways...I am in the process of making two Tele bodies from Pine...folks over at the TDPRI have been raving about Pine and I really would like to see what the fuzz is all about. I got the edges of both bodies routed and only then it occured to me that I really would like one body to be 1.5 inches instead of 1.75.

    Now I wonder what's a safe and fast way to bring the thickness of the boy down to 1.5 inches???

    When I cut and glued the pieces of Pine together I took em to a shop where they planed the glued-up blank for me.

    I'm sure you guys know what kind of machinery was used for it...since English isn't my native languaege, I don't know the proper name of some of the machinery involved. They basically push the blank in on one side and it comes out in the required thickness on the other side.

    Now I wonder if the same can be done with the shaped body?

    Or is there a chance of some major f***-up when non-squared piece of wood is inserted into this machine???

    The only other way I can think of to slim the body down is sanding...and I really don't want to sand for days to get to the thickness I want.

    Any help is greatly appreciated...

    Cheers

    Sascha

  12. I've never done this before but it almost looks like he applies some sort of varnish to the bobbin to coat and yelllow (maybe some impurities in there - dirt perhaps) and then when its dry hits it with a freeze mechanism (canned air or contact renew held upside down) to get the varnish to crack. Just a guess...as I said before, I've never actually done this...Rog

    EDIT: One other thought, there are some finishes Ive used to make metal look rusted and vintage, but I can't remeber what they are called. I'll try to do a little research to steer you in the right direction...Rog

    That would be nice...

    I'm pretty much aware of etchant solution and the lot, which are used to age metal parts but I doubt that this was used on a pickup?!?!

    As I said, when you come across any info it would be great if you could let me know...

    Sascha

  13. I tried to get some information on this over at the TDPRI, but to no avail...I hope there are a few folks around here who can help me out...

    Lots has been written about relicing the finish and the hardware of guitars, but I have never seen a post on how to make a Telecaster Pickup (especially the bridge pickup) look old!

    Don't get me wrong...I'm only talking of comsetically ageing it so it looks like those that Alan Hamel sells or those Lollar Pickups that have been aged by Jonathan Wilson ( http://www.songsofjonathanwilson.com/GVCGLollarAL3.htm ) ....I don't want to alter the sound, only the appearance!

    Strat Pickups are an easy one...just scruff em up and throw them in strong coffee or tea, but...what's to do to make a brand spankin' new Tele Pickup not look odd in a relic guitar????

  14. Pretty much all online shops will ship to Canada, but you've got plenty (and I mean lots) of native wood places. Look for lumber yards in your yellow pages, heck, check eBay for various wood vendors. Lots of nice maple, cedar and spruce up there, at the very least. Finding some Alder shouldn't be the most difficult thing ever done, and a bit of rock maple, ditto.

    As for templates, there are sites that sell them if you want to spend the 50 bucks or so. Or you can get a plan (I believe mimf.com sells one), photocopy it and make your templates from that. It's not hard, just a bit time consuming.

    I did most of the work on a matched pair strat/tele about half a year ago, since been awaiting the finishing touches, but the pictures (no explanation for now) might help. Broswe this directory, obviously named files:

    http://www.xs4all.nl/~mvalente/guitarpics4/

    For parts, google GW Musical, might be a good place to get some stuff. Alternately, I can heartily reccomend StewMac.com (awesome customer service, decent prices), Warmoth.com (have some sharp prices on things like tuning machines, electronics, some hardware) and GuitarFetish (eBay seller, also GuitarFetish.com) for decent, low-priced hardware and pickups (although for tuning machines, I say buy Gotohs. They're cheap, they're good, nuff said).

    I've just been looking through the pics of the link you provided as well as valenteguitars.com and I must say that your photos are really inspiring and really want me to get something started as well!

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