Avalon

Well i think one of the main problems with the stacked design is having a single pole throughout the core of both coils. On my fullsize humbucker, i tried having both cores on the same pole, and it reduces the effectiveness alot, which might be a big part of the problem on the stacked driver. But on the other hand, would two cores with opposite poles just fight with the strings instead of working together if they were stacked? its hard to know really without testing it, but the biggest prob i think is getting both halves with opposite poles on (that might just be me being simple though lol). Anyhow, going to be working on some more dual rails over the weekend, and i've just received the parts for Cols circuit from Maplin (bar 1 capacitor which they sent a Pigme bulb in place of ), but i'll be starting work on that very soon too

Ah, sorry 'bout that, I misunderstood - seems like good reasoning - and thanks for putting the time and effort into these tests - Its great that the project is being moved on constantly. (btw, it's the EMI that they are producing that we're worried about rather than what they attract... but that's just a little detail that doesn't effect the validity of the tests at all ) I can't wait for someone to compare a side-by-side 2x4ohm series driver with a side-by-side 2x16ohm parallel one cheers Col Nps mate, we're all in this together lol, and as i've mentioned, this is all very new to me, and im learning alot about it all, which is down to you guys and this fab thread, otherwise i'd be up a well known creek with out a paddle lol

Well i tried it in Stacked HB form, and for the difference in noise it picks up compaired to parallel wired drivers (which i have tried in both stacked and dual rail), i think the dual rails wired in parallel are the best option, baring in mind that the Stacked and Dual Rail designs are very close in the amount of noise they pickup in my tests. The parallel designs are the only drivers that i've actual had working to an extent in the mid position, so im just following my test results really. Once i get my bobbingless winding jig made, it will take the work out of making the dual rails, then i can soon make a 2x4ohm dual rail for series, and give it a try, to rule it in or out of testing. But i think a couple of other ppl are making them atm, so maybe they'll have some info on those before i do. Stacked humbucker format and dual rail series wired are not the same thing at all. As I've explained more than once, the stacked format involves some cancellation, not just of noise, but also of the signal itself - this does not happen with dual rail format. This means that stacked format is significantly (for our application) less efficient. Also note that EMI control that we want is not the same as humbucking action in a pickup - we're not trying to stop the driver picking up stray electrostatic noise, we are trying to reduce/control its output of electromagnetic radiation. I'm not saying that the parallel wired version is not better (remember it was me who first proposed it) just that we cannot say which is better until a thorough comparison has been performed . Comparing a stacked series driver with a side by side parallel driver doesn't really tell us if series or parallel are equivalent or if one is better than the other. cheers Col Im not compairing Stacked series to side-by-side parallel mate, im compairing the Stacked parallel to the side-by-side parallel. Both have a very similiar interfearence, relative to how close they get to the bridge pickup, at maximum power (before it picked up EMI from the bridge), and how much sustain was still present on the strings. The effectiveness of the stacked HB (or lack of effectiveness) is not in question, but the amount of EMI the Dual and Stacked attract, is very similiar in parallel wiring, so based on this, i think the Dual and the Stacked will attract similiar amounts of EMI wired in series (similiar amounts to each other, not to the parallel versions). Thats why i haven't built one yet, i've not writen anything off, im just going down the Dual Rail parallel route, based on what i've tested so far, its the most effective driver, its just my opinion though.

Well i wouldn't mind some ideas on shielding too.

Sounds good, but have you tried the original 2x 4ohm dual rail with coils wired in series (0.2 wire) - you can't say whats best if you've not tried that Well i tried it in Stacked HB form, and for the difference in noise it picks up compaired to parallel wired drivers (which i have tried in both stacked and dual rail), i think the dual rails wired in parallel are the best option, baring in mind that the Stacked and Dual Rail designs are very close in the amount of noise they pickup in my tests. The parallel designs are the only drivers that i've actual had working to an extent in the mid position, so im just following my test results really. Once i get my bobbingless winding jig made, it will take the work out of making the dual rails, then i can soon make a 2x4ohm dual rail for series, and give it a try, to rule it in or out of testing. But i think a couple of other ppl are making them atm, so maybe they'll have some info on those before i do.

Did some tests last night with my Fullsize Humbucker, 2x16ohm coils, made with 0.16mm wire, side-by-side, wired in parallel, with opposite poles on the cores. It works well in standard mode, sustains all strings, bar about 3 frets, is as quiet as the Dual Rails, its less effective then the Dual Rail in Harmonic mode, but given the differences between both of the designs (16ohm coils instead of 13.5 on the dual rail, and the different spacing between the cores), i still think it works well. As for the wire guage (0.16 instead of 0.20), it does seem to change the balance abit, the G string in particular seems quite lively with the new guage, being nearly the first to start sustaining from its own faint sound (where as on my previous drivers it was always the thick E). As for the actual size of the coils, the 16ohm coils are about the same size as my 8 ohm coils with the 0.20 guage wire, 6mm wide including the 2mm core, which i think is pretty good (also bare in mine my 8ohm coils were built on 3mm cores). I think my next step is going to be another Dual Rail, 2x13.5ohm (with the 0.16 wire), wired in parallel, and see if i can make it my working test pickup, then move back to the circuit design (and probably try Cols circuit too). I think the Dual Rail 2x13.5ohm, Parallel design, is for now the best option, especially for a mid-driver position, which is my aim, and i think the circuit might be where some more of the secrets lie.

I've just started on my Full Size Humbucker, got the bobbings and cores made, probably wind them tommorow with the new wire gauge (0.16) and to 16ohms per coil, if it works ok, its going to be installed on the test guitar for now and given an extended run. If all go's well, i'll post some pics and sound samples.

I haven't tried a Dual Rail with 2 x 4 ohm coils wired in serial, but i did test a stacked Humbucker with this design, although it worked quite well, better then the single coils, it was nowhere near as quite as the dual rail wired in parallel. Atm, i think side-by-side coils wired in parallel are the way to go, either in full humbucker or dual rail style. My next stop is to build a a standard Humbucker size driver (2x16omhs wired in parallel) for my test guitar (since the neck pickup is rubbish anyway) and see if its as effective as the dual rails. The reason im attracted to the Dual Rails (other then them being very effective) is the fact that my personal goal is to get one working in a middle position, as all my guitars (Tester aside) only have a neck and bridge pickup. Im also very interested in building Col's circuit, although im not sure when i'll find time atm, so i might have to come back to that, but excellent work on that mate As for building a Dual Rail, i haven't got any photos of the construction process (or time to take any atm), but here is abit of info on it. Most important thing is making it as two seperate coils, that fit back together when you're done, because its impossible to wind them joined. If you're using one magnet for the two cores, then this determines how far apart the cores are going to be, the north end of the magent should be touching 1 core, the south touching the other, which also means both your bobbings on the cores need to fit together to the other half. The other problem i found was that once you start getting near 10ohms, there is nowhere to put the glue for potting (i was using 0.20 wire and its the reason im going to try 0.16), so you have to make sure you winds are very good, and be compacting the coils as much as is humanly possible (without forcing the bobbings anywhere at the sametime). These were my main probs, and i'll try to make a little diagram when i get a minute, but in the meantime, best of luck

Pretty much, i just have a couple of alterations from Pete's "Champ" circuit included, so it looks like this: But its not much different, i'll probably add a phase switch onto the board before long to save on having to add one to each version of the driver i try (plus it will be needed once im certain of the design im going to install).

Well, as far as the drivers go, you might want to try a Dual Rail humbucker, as per the Juans design a couple of pages ago, i've just been testing mine on a new set of 11-49 strings, and it sustains them all lovely in the neck position of my 24 fret guitar. I've got it temp mounted on a baseplate i made to fit the hole and mounting surround the pickup usually fits in, adjusted the height so that its as close to the stings as possible without them actually touching when pressed down on the 24th fret, and im really pleased with how it sounds. Harmonic mode is the only slight down side, this only works on the thicker strings, but its early days yet. Juans design is two 13.5ohm coils side-by-by, Dual Rail style, wired in parallel, with 1mm steel cores (mine has 2mm steel cores), one core with the north pole of the magnet touching, the other core with the south. Pics of both Juans and mine can be found only a few pages back, it seems a solid design. I'll be posting some more pics and some sound samples this week of the sustainer in action, and a big thanks again to everyone working on this project, i wouldn't of had a hope in hell of getting this far without this thread

Please remember that the latest developments in driver ideas, parallel wiring of 16 ohm coils and using finer wire guages are as yet unproven ideas. Go ahead and try them out, but don't be too dissapointed if the results are the same or worse than what you already have. cheers Col I won't be mate, im going to try the last Dual Rail driver i made tonight with the thicker strings before i build any more coils, but when i do get to some more coils it will be interesting to see what changes it makes to it, good or bad, i'll let you know how it go's though

To true Here is a cover i did of Deep Purples "Lazy" about a week ago, a part in the intro uses the sustainer, but handheld as a feedback device: http://www.snapdrive.net/files/419102/Lazy_By_Avalon.mp3 It was great to work something into a song that would of otherwise been impossible without the development you guys have all put in here, so a big thank you to you all Not got alot done on any of my other Sustainer projects yet, i've got the supplies for some new coils (going to try 0.16mm wire, thanks for the info on those Col ), and 1mm steel at hand now if needed thanks to Joes idea, cheers mate Also finally picked up a set of 11-49 guage strings, so i can give the drivers a proper test, i'll keep you posted on how that anything go's.

I wonder how it really compares as the rail has two 8 ohm coils compared to the stacked drivers 2x4 ohm...or do I have that wrong? Anyway, I am amazed that you were able to make two 8 ohm coils in the rail size even thinner than my single...any tips? pete 8ohms would have been far less hassle lol, it has 2, 13.5ohm coils, one on the north blade one on the south, 3mm high, 64mm wide (wrapped around a 56mm wide core) and 8mm deep per coil. It doesn't quite fit into one of my single coil covers, but is the same size as it (so just about fits our single coil size requirement). The down side of it is the construction, making the bobbin so small was quite tricky (and would probably benifit from being made from something alittle stronger then plastic if we reach a final design at some stage), but winding it was very tricky. I made each side as a seperate coil/blade ready to be joined to the other half, as i couldn't think of anyway to wind them joined, and winding around something so small and fiddlely as you can imagine is tricky. I think if i can track down some 1mm steel for the cores, this will take just enough width off it to fit it within my single coil casing, i might also try some 0.18mm wire, it was mentioned a couple of pages ago that this wire seems to work well on the thinner strings, and would also decrease the coil size ever so slightly (every little helps ). If the thinner wire does help with the thinner strings, i might try a DR-HB with a 0.18mm wound north coil, and a 0.20mm wound south coil (both to the same ohms) to see if that has any merit. would it be possible to adapt a normal humbucker to a humbucker driver, using the same technique as the single coil/driver? Well im pretty sure it would work, just not sure how well, the distance between each coil and core is a possible reason it wouldn't be that effective, as the coils might be working against each other instead of with each other. But the is nothing stopping you trying it, if you wound 8ohms on each core, wired them in parallel it would be of a similiar setup to the single coils, and if it doesn't work that well, just disconnect the south coil and you have a 8ohm single coil driver on the north (like in the guide). 1.) Yes in theory, i think the closer the driver is to the fretboard the better really, atleast until a fully working driver is developed for any possition, there are exceptions to the rule (as was being discussed a couple of pages back), but generally speaking, the closer to the 12th fret the better and the futher away from the bridge pickup the better. 2.)Not cetain on this, but i think in theory yes , both coils would need to be the same rating (or very very similiar), and wired to work as a humbucker obviously, but as i said, not 100% certain on this. And best of luck with the guitar mate

Well the humbuckers cancel some of the EMI, in the last one i made (Dual Rail style), which runs in parallel mode, its silient compaired to a single coil pickup, abit trickier to make though. Also while im here, I've been testing my 2x13.5ohm stacked HB last night, and it doesn't work half as well as the Dual Rails, not even as well as my previous Stacked HB, which is a shame, but this particular design might not suit the stacked format, i'll have to do a few more tests before i can right off the Stacked design. But for now atleast, the Dual Rail seems the way to go. I should also add my Ruby/Fet is now modified to incorperate the extra parts from Pete's "Champ" circuit, which i think helps too. Edit: my circuit now looks like this:

Hi guys, here's the first pics of the Dual Rail Humbucker i've made: And Its based on Juán's design from page 178, two 13.5 ohm coils, side-by-side, wired in parallel (first DPDT switch works serial/parallel). I must say the first signs are very good, in parallel mode, it runs in the neck position with the Ruby/Fet on full power siliently, thats a first for me (not sure about you guys), but also works well at the same gain level as all my previous drivers (easily equal to them at similiar levels), and as importantly, it works in the middle position at the same level of gain without interfearence. I must say it was abit annoying to build, i built the coils around a 2mm steel core (the thinnest i can find atm), and the coils just about take the 4mm i allowed for them (2mm either side of the core), but its a tight fit. I finished winding my stacked HB version of the above a couple of hours ago, so i'll be able to see how both designs compair soon enough, but im very impressed the Dual Rail design so far.

The negative side of the battery also go's the the ground on the Ruby/Fet. The driver go's from the output and the ground, the positive go's to the output of the Ruby, the negative to the ground.

Well you can input directly into the Ruby/Fet from your guitar jack (i have my imput on the Ruby/Fet as a 1/4" jack socket for ease of use), but it works better if you bypass the guitar controls, i did this by adding a second jack to my guitar. You need to take the signal straight from the bridge pickup, the best way to do this is from the pickup selector, where the pickup is wired into. You'll need a spare 1/4" jack socket (or two if you want one on the Ruby/Fet), and some single core shielded wire. Soldier the wire to the same contact your pickup hot wire is connected to on the selector, and the shielding wire to any local shielding point (like the case of the pickup selector (if its metal lol)), then put the 1/4" jack socket on the other end of the wire, same again, wire to the input of the socket, shielding to the shielding contact. If you need anymore help, just ask mate

Well i'll be making my new drivers over the weekend (probably be mid week before i can test them), but i might alter my PCB to include some of your alterations from the "Champ" circuit above, see what difference that makes too. As for testing them, i guess the only thing you can actually measure is the ohms of the coils, the rest you have to take for a test drive, but when i have them built i'll let you know how they work.

Well i'll try one of each at the weekend, a dual rail HB and a stacked HB, both the same rating, and see how they turn out. Just one quick question on the dual rails though, do you have one magnet facing both cores? (N facing one, S facing the other), or a magnet on the bottom of each core ? I've been searching the thread and can't find that info atm.

Well i might not be doing myself any favours making it like that, but it does work, wheather its as effective im not sure, its equal to my single coils, but quieter, and i guess i'll only know if i test the other route. But the high power HB parallel will also be made like this, so i'll see how that go's, and probably try a dual blade HB too, so i can compair them. I think alot depends on where the drivers are, there are definately sweet spots on the strings, which probably relate to the position of the harmonics, so in theory if you have your driver under one of these sweet spots, i guess it might work quite well. On 21/22 fret guitars like Fenders etc, the neck pickup is directly under the 24 fret (or where it would be), which i think is the second best spot to being directly under the 12th, all my guitars have 24 frets (seemed like a good idea at the time lol), but i think with enough power, the drivers will work anywhere, its just a case of keeping them quiet thats the ultimate problem, and decent screening is something im yet to go onto, so any advise on that very welcome My pleasure mate, its nice to contribute alittle back after all the devolopment you guys have put in getting this far

The closer the Driver is to the bridge, the more powerful it needs to be to move the strings, which is why most of the testing is done in the neck position, as its closer to the middle of the strings length, and the closer you get to the center, the less effort it is to move them. A good example is to try closing a door by pushing it from the outer edge (the handle side), then try closing it from the inner edge (nearest to the hinges), it requires alot more effort, and the same sort of thing applies to the strings (the bridge & nuts are the hinges and the center of the strings 12th fret'ish is the easiest point to move them by (the handle)). Anyway, enough of bad analogys lol, but i hope that explains it. I think the middle position will be a more realistic option, i think thats where alot of us would like to run it (i only have a neck & bridge pickup, so its ideal for me lol), i think this will be more likely then a bridge driver atm.

Here it is: And: Each coil is 2mm high, wound around a 3mm thick steel core, and is about 5-6mm deep (including the core), and divided by 1mm plastic. I believe Dimarzio use the stacked coil on alot of there Humbucking Single-Coil pickups (HS-2/HS-3/YJM i think, and even 2 x 2 stacked coils side-by-side in the Seymour Duncan Hotrails if memory serves me correctly), and that approach appeals to me quite abit, which is something i might try if i ever get around to making my own pickups. Without trying a dual-blade driver, i can't really compair the two, but its a definate improvement over my single coil drivers, so HB's will be my focus for now as far as the drivers are concerned. I think i'll try a high power stacked HB around a 1mm core, to be wired in Parallel next (as has been discussed), and see how that compairs.

I think you need to get the Multi-meter out mate (if you have one), set it to buzzer mode, tap the two contacts together and it should bleep or buzz to let you know the two surfaces are connected. Now start checking all the shielded areas, if you have a crocodile clip adaptor for one of the contacts, clip it on to the shielding side of your PCB, and use the other contact to check what is and isn't connected to it. Make sure all the inputs & Outputs shieldings are connected, and make sure the shielding isn't making contact with any other area of the PCB (or its components), and if you need any help with this, i'll make alittle Pictorial if its any help. Im going to keep testing the sustainer too, the driver the above sound sample was recorded with was my first humbucker driver (7 ohms stacked humbucker (2 x 3.5 ohms), which works quite well, is far quieter then the single coils too (which is the general idea i guess lol). I might try another HB but a more powerful one to be wired in Parallel, as has been discussed on the previous page, that looks like yet another very interesting design.

Thats the real issue i guess, getting it to a workable state. My test was done using the driver handheld, which isn't an option if your actually playing anything, and as you mentioned was close to the strings (3mm'ish), which also isn't ideal when playing, so there is definately alot of thought needed, but that can be half the fun Anyhow, i'll see where it leads, and thanks for the feedback

Hi guys, just alittle progress update to how im going about my sustainer. I've been fiddling about with various setups, and have found that outputing from a spare port on my Pod (and V-Amp 2), to the Ruby/Fet, then to the driver (hovered around near different frets) creates a very effective feedback driver. So im now thinking about changing my direction towards a silient feedback speaker (that won't require modding the guitar). Here is a little sound sample of a test i just did with it: http://www.snapdrive.net/files/334964/Driver_Test.mp3 Im going to build some more powerful drivers (and maybe use a more powerful magent) to see if i can get a good ranged feedback driver made, and have it as a desktop device. Obviously it will still have the EMI issues, but i think it could be an interesting idea to follow up (as you might hear on the sound sample), so for now im going to pursue this idea and i'll keep you posted on how it go's (and any idea/feddback on the idea very welcome ).