psw

That's great Tim...it just goes to show that even on a Les Paul that design, and the behind the bridge concept works. I've got yet another incarnation (there are now 4) complete circuits to play around with...still working on that preamp though. I'm kind of giving up...unless there is a LOT of encouragement...on the led driver. It's going to take a lot of work as a production thing. I'm thingking more along the high brightness LED shining up the strings as an alternative. It's very effective and mounts safely in the box. Has anyone had experience with those little rechargable button cells about 30mm x 3mm rated at 3 volts...much guts in them? They'd be two expensive to replace all the time but if rechargable, could bring the size down a bit. By the way, that box Tim, does that have the battery in it...it looks a little small. There's no doubt that it could be that small once everythings on one board. It's that spaghetti of wires and the bulky battery that's letting down the box team. Also...how do you get two batteries in the spring cavity...judst one spring? anyway, I was starting to miss the graphics, thanks Tim psw PS oh and the picture pushed us over the 8000 visits mark but I find the number of posts that's truely amazing!

Hi Ansil...i'm glad that that should put a stop to the endless sustainer mod debate. I'll eventually get some sounds up, unless someone what's to get it running (I have trouble recording stuff..ancient computer, don't you know!) I think I know what your referring too, so keep at it. As for my system, it's quite different and efficient and there's room for more efficiency and tweaking. For instance...no one has...but one could ask, why hex drivers with a mono source! Well the quick answer is, 'cause I can!...another is, eventually I'll make a hex pup to drive each string alone. But the answer for now is that I hope to be able to taylor each driver to it's string to get an even polyphonic response, in time. That means, not only the benifits of the system as so far discussed over the "competition" but useable chord tones, even hexaphonic distortion of a new type from a mono source should be posible. Experiments that I make with each new driver indicate that there's a lot of scope there. There's room for any number of effect devices. I'm captivated by this as it's really an extension of the instrument and playing technique, not just an effect. It does however require a bit more thatn just plugging in and playing. I'm trying to make it as easy as possible to install, but there will always need to be some hard wiring to be done, box or no box! anyway, got to get back too it psw

Hey there fellas.... Did anyone miss they're sustainer fix? Well I just wasted a few more day's getting nowhere fast. As a result I'll lay off for a while. It always seems that if I let it go, when I come back things seem to go quicker. With that in mind I've stuck all the boards and bits and nest of wires to a piece of cardboard and tested the latest driver and will just muck about with it to see what it can do at this stage of development... A couple of interesting things have come up! I mentioned in my previous post: What i was doing was testing the circuitry with a small speaker and found I could get some great feedback effects from it. Behind the scenes I've been E-talking with Emre/transient and he showed me this: DIY electro-acoustic Feedback generator! This is exactly the conclusion I came up with after mucking about with the concept. I was dumbfounded. Perhaps, because of my more refined circuitry, it worked really well but it's not as easy as it looks to produce that "transducer". I had the idea of marrying my circuitry to this kind of thing and have spent a few days (and dollars on it). Now, the more clued on this site will perhaps recognise it as Ansil's Sustainer Mod on steroids! I'm not sure that Ansil explained, or fully understood the principle...the speaker is not shaking the pickup but the whole guitar. I'd like to make it clear that I have proved that Ansil's sustainer Mod can work, if you spend the time to muck around enough with it and feed it enough power. I hope poor Ansil can rest easy, and if anyone doubts that it can work send them to me (I live at the bottom of the world, mind you!) So my feeling of sheepishness was that I appeared to be able to meet the projects criteria (pickup selection, etc) with this simple device. As it turns out, Emre is into fretless guitar and sustainers are common to these instruments as they lack a certain amount of natural sustain, has experimented with it a bit, but with limited results. Possibly my circuitry is better tuned to drive it. So it works and you may as well try it. Upon further testing, and reading up on this and the Model C sustainiac system (there's a link from the above linked page) two thing struck me. One is, why would you then develop and flagship the stealth system, and fernandes too. And, that both are running remotely with dedicated cables to the guitar running from a mains drawn power supply. The answers there, It takes a bit of current so the battery goes flat fast. Your effectively running a practice amp from a nine volt battery, it makes a bit of a racket (you hear the guitar playing away over the sound from the amp at low volumes) it's a bit primitive. Mainly though, it's more efficient to electromagnetically move an already vibrating string at that resonant frequency, than it is to vibrate the entire instrument, and thereby vibrating the string. It's kind of a shame, 'cause I thought my quest for infinite sustain had come to an end. So, I've been trying this out for a few days and could perhaps give some pointers and as a DIY project it isn't bad. It just made me a little more depressed that I would come up with the exact same thing (though it's probably obvious) as Mr M Smart above! I also felt bad 'cause I thought I'd researched the thing pretty thoroughly but I missed this! So after futzing around with speakers and trying three different preamp circuits to no avail, I put my stuff back into driver mode again...and really...the driver is a lot better and more efficent. I can report that the new comercial grade, standardised driver format is a success and there are a few twists in the saga that will be revealed when the system is complete I guess. So I'll now get back to the original concept of a very small hex driver array and leave you all to DIY the above thing. Perhaps you'll be so hooked on sustain that by the time mines ready, you'll want one on every guitar! The other thing is I've had a few messages from "Hideenaner" a newbie (nothing wrong with that emre is too, it just means you've just signed up...or perhaps forgoten your name again ) asking specifically about the driver, why are there LED's in it, etc! I think most people would recognise that, apart from the benifits of my propsed system has over available others, is in the driver. There are no references to how the CPx series drivers work except for a theory on rotating magnetic fields (I now use a wave effect, but the same principle applies), and how these things work without coils. I think I've been fairly (and probably too) frank about everything except where there is new ground broken. The driver is the essential element, the circuitry just serves to feed it. I'm only really having trouble with the circuit as I'm a complete "doofus" when it comes to understanding and designing circuitry at the technical level. I can build 'em though! The only thing I can say, and you regulars will already know, the LED's are simply for show. The driver contains both active and passive components and has some protection (set in epoxy, unable to take readings from it) from snoops, in fact if taken apart, they're to fragile to work!) The lights do take up as much power as the amp though so I may scale that back...is it worth the effort of lighting it up. I got some Blue LED's at a clearace and installed one on the new circuit...it leaves a beautiful errie light over the whole scratchplate and picking hand. I might not wory about the LED's for a bit, and just get the thing stablised. Anyway, that's more than enough as always...any suggestions or comments are always appreciated so don't be backwards in coming forward. psw PS if you're new, it helps if you put some info about yourself on the profile so I get a sense of who I'm talking to and the motivation behind some questions...sounds a little paranoid I know....ok I'm paranoid, so sue me!

You're not thinking Stanley Clarke are you. He had some wierd setup like this...lots of poping and percusive stuff in his playing and uses a picolo bass sometimes?

Very entertaining guy's... Actually, I didn't think it could be that hard as danelectro do it and they're not renown for complex switches though they do sometimes do the rotary thing. I always thought it was a great idea as most of us have the guitar full bore anyway. psw

I lost contact, but this is what I was posting at the time: Yeah that's the idea crafty. But, I'd be having two channels and perhaps two columns, or boxes. Drak...if anything I spend too much reading and talking and not enough building! That's the reason for the question. I remember Galliaen Krugger(?spelling) had a little mike stand amp that was pretty powerful (100watt plus) but that was still pretty directional. I know about bose. I'm here asking, 'cause that's researching. Evidently it's not common or people would have an opinion. By the way, reading advertising is no way to research. First hand knowledge is always of more interest, that's the beauty of the forum. For instace, here's all I could gleam from Bose's web site on their cylindrical radiator loudspeaker: Knowing that they like to reflect sound, I might hazard a guess that the speakers are perhaps pointing up and the shape funnells it out. Or there could be speakers facing out in an 180 degree arch. I'll check the patent's shall I? psw

Thanks emre...beautiful work as always...you can rest a while now, ta! I've cut my losses on the preamp's I've been using...I have an icecream bucket in which I throw my failures and I've filled one already...not to worry, they'll be recycled into something else in due course. I have a preamp module and a few other preamp kits so I'll be using that to make some noise very soon I hope. I'd like to point out to the electronics novices here (me included), that there are a lot of really good, well designed, virtually guarranteed to work, kits out there for effects and little amps and such. These are great, I even did a costing on buying the board that I modified for a part of this project and found that for the same price of one board (even if bought in lots of twenty), I could buy the kit retail...with all the components!!! You can really go to town if you want to changing values and tweaking stuff based on what you read about, or just experiment. It really is a great way to learn and at least you'll get some sort of fuzz box or something out of it. That said I did a bit of experimenting with the stuff. I got all the lights going and they really do look good. Light's and guitars have never really caught on...it's easy to get a bit tacky and kitsch all for the sake of a little window dressing. But somehow when it's an add on it doesn't look half bad. (or maybe I'm tacky and kitsch). I also rigged up the circuit to this preamp module and it worked fine. Now I'm feeling a little sheepish 'cause in the course of mucking about with stuff I think I came across something that will make this a lot easier. Unfortunately, I have to swallow my pride in some of my work and I'll have to do a bit more research to see if there aren't arlready patents barring me from doing this, but from what I've read, I'd probably get away with it. My problem is that at this stage of the game, being so close to a "product" I'm a little worried to say anything about it. Anyway, if all goes to plan, I'll be able to demonstrate some sounds soon enough with what I've got and design ideas, even if not exactly as it may end up sould be safe enough. Now, I'd really encourage some feedback on the box vs. internal debate. Also the styling and any "no go" areas of the guitar. I obviously have a soft spot for the box. If you've got this sysem and other stuff...was it tim who said they got 2 9volt batteries in their trem spring cavity (I don't know how...I'm having trouble fitting one...perhaps I'm trying the wrong cavity [sorry, Australian Humour...ignore that].). WARNING MORE HARMLESS CRUDE HUMOUR ALERT I'm also looking at locating batteries in back there (opps...), and I still like under the jack plate (sorry...). At least the holes are there for it (I'm a bit tired...), but each guitar will pose it's own problems in installation. I even thought some time ago of building the circuitry into a thicker (say 6mm) tremolo cavity cover so that all but the controls are hidden from view. But then all those gibson guys (I was one...still am I guess) without trems will be left out. Really though there are some great effects combining this "thing" with the trem besides the obvious dive bombs. So, for a while I may be absent, but I'll still be looking in everyday...got to do some research, get back to work, (long story...in case you were wondering if this is all I do all day usually...there is no trust fund, trust me!), and get some chops up to do a demo for you guys... Oh, and one last thing...It's time to assess what would be considered a success with this project. I know I had a list of criteria, but that was long ago. I started assuming I'd have to lose the neck pickup, so let's not make assumptions. Just have a think about what you'd really want this thing to do and look like (including internal secret installation). I must be getting close to getting something together so it would really help as a market research tool. Also, think about what you want...don't try to double think what you think most people would feel about something, it's as likely they think like you or I. I really hope that this thing will sell itself for what it has to offer. The appearance of it is secondary but important...I dont want anything that will turn people off, dispite what it can do! (if you understand that, you'd understand anything). Now, with that free assicated speed typed load of drivel (have I made page 40 yet?, I'll say goodnight... Goodnight psw

Well Drak, what can I say. This isn't a product ...I just want to get surround sound loud enough to play in a band and replace my combo which, while plenty loud enough is really directional. I played an outside festival once and couldn't be heard over the otherside of the stage! Also I want it to be compact and light to carry. I dont like leaving anything out in the car while loading out. Plus...I've got a 200 watt stereo poweramp for a song and 16 of these speakers at a wholesale clearance. They're rated at 70 watts a piece! I like a fairly clean sound but not to shrill and always play with a small amount of analoge delay on there. I figure I could get two amps sounds from two pairs of 4 speakers on either side and have one side handle the delay while the other have a little hair on it. I'm sure it's been done before...it's no big deal p

Here's a rough of my winged tailpiece idea Cant match these guys on graphics but I just thought I'd throw this into the mix. Perhaps we could have a little poll on which style and/or features are liked most! I quite like the fancy of the winged idea. Similarly the fins on the original long box of Tim/onelastgoodbye's. I guess I like the nod to the past. Emre/Transient had an interpretation of my idea of a asymetric scoop. These incorporated the battery into the design but cut back the height where it was possible. Tim went all porsche with the black and silver box with angles and illuminated name. I really liked the cowling detail on that one around the knob and switches. Emre has just added this one which also has some interesting little details. It's in these details that I see something special in all of them. So, id go for my "wing thing", only because I just drew it, and it has a kind of wimsy to it. I'd put all those cowling features and have it appear to float above the guitar face. Emre had a nice line around the bottom and tucked the front of the box it to accentuate the upper tilt of the controls and I quite liked the curves. Of course, I change my mind everytime I see another version. I'll change it even more when I have to make it even more I'm sure! Anyway, tell me what the concensus is and give these guys a heads up on how you see their designs. And if you wouldn't put a box on your guitar unless you really had to to get the sustainer effect, please, let mme know. It will take a lot more to install the thing and you'd be on your own unless you want to come down here (LoL), but thems the breaks. looking forward to seeing the view of you guys psw

Yet another unbelievable desigh Emre...those angle really show off the shape. The scoop is now on top I see, as I had originally thought but changed my mind at the last miniute. The big round flat knob would be really easy to manipulate on the fly and the toggles sticking up would work particularly well with the idea of the on/off and momentary switch idea I'm working on. Regardless, the knob, if a push switch function, would work better than my current designs. Back down here , I've been mucking about with playdough! One of my first ideas was to make a kind of wing shape, almost Art Deco in look from aluminium with the controls just forward of that. I hpoe people appreciate the time and effort, not to mention computer time (pictures of this quality ties up a computer for hours to render to create that realistic effect). Besides the sustainer, people might consider building on these designs to house effects to the guitar. I think that they have shown that with a little imagination, controls behind the bridge are an option and the stuck on box could be an acceptable alternative to drilling holes in your baby. I've been working on some preamp ideas but they have come to nothing so far. I really want to shrink the preamp down as it really does hamper the design choices. Also, having some problems finding enough time and will have to scale back my activities for a while now. Never fear though, work will go into it but just not as much as recently...unless there's some kind of breakthrough.... So to update the stage I'm at with the project: o The Driver o I have 3 drivers of the type propsed. The Silver one, An illuminated copy that's thicker and a new one, almost done that is more like the final product design. As I'm making this one I'm also making jigs to reproduce it and have the parts for about 5 at hand. o The Circuit o I have shrunk the power amp stage as far as can be expected using hand soldering techniques. o I've added a low-battery indicator circuit. o I think I've got the attenuator circuit done but it may need some tweaking. o I have two momentary knob action designs but they are labour intensive to create. I have a fall back option of a momentary switch. There are other options too. We'll have to see which makes the final cut. o I have a couple of working preamp options but neither are really satisfactory given the size they take up. Try as I might, what should be one of the easiest things is the sticking point. The reason is that I'm an electronics novice and my learning curve is getting a little too steep! o The Concept. o With the tremendous help from the two designers Emre and Tim, we've really had the concept fleshed out. There are things to be taken from all of these designs. o I've made some progress on how this thing should be connected into the guitar. There's no getting around the inevitable need for some drilling to take place and some wiring to be done by the end user. I have made a little progress on how this could most easily be done. o I have though of way's in which a standard "box" can be used on different platforms. o Production Issues. o I've made enquiries on how the circuit could be manufactured. o I'm progressing with the jigs to hand make drivers o I have found sources for some of the more specialised parts. Even though a lot of work has been done in the last few weeks really, it's been a long haul and I've really racked up the hours on this. I had hoped to have progressed further. I have to remind myself that it was only at the new year that I was able to say that the system (as it stands) is a working entity, even if the refinements are not there yet. So, I'll see what I can come up with, but I'll be presured for time (maybe my posts will become shorter and less frequent as a result) and I expect progress to become slower. Anyway, I'll be watching psw

Well that sounds promising...I'm not saying it's new...I've seen some stuff in the past. I might add a subwoofer. My current amp is a combo with a 12" and I have a ported extension cab with a 15". There's a natural kind of crossover effect. The "stereo everywhere" effect is the kind of thing I was aiming for. I thought I could put them in columns. If I did this I could use some large PVC pipe cut lenghwise in the back as a kind of reflector and ports down the side. I see bose has used a lot of speakers at the back, bouncing off the wall. Perhaps if they were wired "reverse polarity" any cancellation would be counteracted by the reflected delay. Anyhow, thanks...when I get time to do it it sounds like an interesting thing to experiment with. psw

Well the title says it all... Are lots of full range speakers (130mm or 5.25 inch woofers) have the effect as a couple of large speakers in principle? The speaker's I'm talking about are 70 watts, paper cone with foam surround, frequency response of 70-18KHz, sensitivity of 88db, and a magnet of 5.5 Oz's. I'm proposing 16 of them and running them at 200 watts in a stereo configuration to create a bi-amp effect with two cabs. But, even if you ignore the details of these speakers in particular, what would be the effect of this kind of setup? psw

Today's update... Although sandwiching the boards seemed like a good idea at the time... I'm not sure, but I suspect having the signal inputs and high current outputs literally pushed together is such a good idea...too much noise. Additionally, in order to do it I have to lie the cap's on their side to save space/height. The result is that the legs are longer and act as little antenna for EMI (electro magnetic Interferance). You'll remember that the sustainers on the market don't allow you to use pickups other than the one furtherist from the driver (the bridge). This is to avoid the oscillation problems caused by EMI. I'm attempting to get around this with small physical size, the rotating magnetic field theory of mine, and other means to control EMI. One of the problems that may occur with a DIY internal installation is that the close proximity of the driving circuitry to the internal wiring may take special measures to address. I have made a preliminary physical model of my box idea. I've also just seen transient/emre's latest design...he'll post it when he's finished but I quite like it, it's certainly different again to the designs already posted. Keep looking in. By the way, If you have any "off the record" ideas questions or enquiries about the project, and other stuff I've got in mind after this, feel free to email me. Because of the circuitry problems above, I thought I'd work on something Lovekraft (aka LK) has sent me from time to time. I've adapted it to my needs and...finger's crossed...this should be the basis of the final circuitry design. I now have 4 circuits plus a lot of failed attempts. I went out and overspent at the electronics store...this things costing quite a bit...but I think it's getting there. I've also got the battery indicator circuit up and running. This evolution...once any bugs are ironed out should form the basis of things to come, size and function wise for the thing. I've managed to replace all the power section capacitors with SMD's (not easy to solder), built a two stage buffer/preamp with a bit of added spice care of LK. I am able to make the push knob momentary thing but it takes a lot of work. I cant find an affordable push button little DPDT switch either. I'll keep the idea but for this new one I have got a hold of a centre off, momentary one side, latched the other toggle (in small but not mini size) that is a more reliable unit and would save me a lot of time. Shame about that. This raises the question of compromise. At this point, with a view to production, I need to work out not just will get the thing going, but go in a manner that's easy to reproduce. For instance, I love the little cowls around the switches that Tim/onelastgoodbye thought up. I even made some and the light efffect is great...but. In order to do this I have to hacksaw and file down tiny bits of aluminium tube...am I prepared to do this for every one I make?....and are you guys prepared to pay for it? Well I like the idea so much that I'll probably incorporate the feature, or something like it, moulded into the actual box cast. Now lights. I know everybody loves lights but...it's not the cost of them so much but the amount of power they use up. Those blue ones all tend to be high brightness and use up a bit of power. Then, I have to have a master on/off switch at the back as well. I have a stock of 300 tiny SMD LED's (similar to those in mobile phones) which will be used for the drivers, but they're all red! Then the battery indicator shines green, then goes red when low. I've wired another red as a standby indicator, so the switches will light red and green. (if both red that means it's recharge time!) I might have to see if another switch isn't needed to have a lights out feature, just to save on power! One last thing...I'm also making a model of the first of my additional "modules" that I'm proposing for this. That is a new jack plate for strat type guitars that will allow the battery and all connections to be housed in that hole where the jack was for easy accessability. I'm hoping to have a few little features in there like a switch jack to activate the power as an alternative to having to remember to turn the thing off with a rear switch...of course, if you're a loungeroom hero like me, you probably don't unplug the guitar so you'll still want that switch wont you! Anyway, dinner time, got to fly psw

Thanks Bio...got another year older while I was away...must be the different time zones The circuitry/system still seems to work well...then work not work so well! The thing is fragile,so...it's on with the box. Ive ogt this great software...plastecene modeling clay and it's morning here so I've already started on a model. it's really great seeing the look of something emerge from under your fingers. I've pretty much settled on a design. I know emre/transient is working up some very different looks, but for now I've got something that takes elements of all of the designs and vibe of what these two artists have come up with and a few of my own to make something attractive, versitile, functional and practical to make. Anyway, back to it...hopefully I'll have something to show and tell. psw

I finally got the new circuit working...needs a little tweak and the battery indicator thingo isn't in...but it's working. I got some great effects in testing and it occured to me that the sustainer should perhaps be explained a little more....so: Basically I've come up with a devious means of magnetically moving the strings. The driver is the real core of the invention. The ideas where working on now is to package it in a functional and acceptable format. This is important...well at least to me. Here's why... Currently, guitarists seem to look at devices like these as an effect. I don't. This thing enables a whole new range of sounds and techniques, just like a violin bow. I want my device to seemlessly blend with any player's sound and technique. That's why I've taken care on things like where the device should, or could be located, how it can be placed without comprimising pickup selection (or choice as with present systems). An example of this is this momentary switch (a bugger to make by the way!!) knob idea. LK pointed out, and quite rightly in respect to some of my theories of putting effects in the drive chain, that the sustainer removes the strings decay, in that it doesn't stop. Well yess...and yet...no! I got some beautiful effects where the natural note decayed to practically nothing in a natural way, only for it to fade back an octave higher and buid to a very loud crescendo. Now you could stop the string but, if you turn the device off, the string would decay as normal for the instrument, the note would simply be longer. The whole system is touch sensitive, just put a finger on a fret is enough to create this fade/backwards sound. A hammer-on comes out loud and clear. A sustained note allows your right hand to roam up and lightly touch the strings creating kind of harmonic arpegios (well if you know where your harmonics are like a Jeff Beck). My system also has a few interesting twists (besides lights in the driver!). The ability to switch pickups creates two distinct sounds...The induction drive sound is a new kind of fizzy distortion that I've not heard before and has an interesting quality to chords. It's not quite hex distortion but it's halfway there but it's not your typical overdriven sound either. Anyway, hopefully the system will be ready soon to start working together on refining these effects. There's still a few wierd noises from time to time. BTW for those new comers, I have a few cheapo strats that I use for this stuff. One is dedicated to a new bridge design (on hold while I do this, ok) one is in pieces (I'll make a show pony for this thing from it eventually) and then there's this hippy kinda hollowbody strat which has become the test instrument. The significance is that these are truely bad pickups. I figure if I can get results with these it'll work great with a good instrument. I'll eventually test it out on my genuine Les Paul (out of action too from another project) but I don't want to spray solder around like I do, near this beauty. Anyway, other stuff to do see ya psw

I'd like to add something. I aways got by with a cheapo iron. It was cheaper to replace the whole thing than to replace the tip!! When I started to work with pickups I thought I'd get serious and get a soldering station. I can't recommend them highly enough. Mine is a duratech: As you can see it's got a LCD readout of the exact temperature, the temperature is programmable and the "pencil" is light and has a fine tip. You can program in 3 different settings. It heats up really fast and it has really made some of the ultra-fine and SMD soldering I've been doing on the Sustainer Project possible. But I have to say, the best thing is that I have it programmed for half an hour at 300 degrees, 15 minutes at 150 degrees then turn off. It's saved my bacon many a time. It's so easy to leave these things running. Not only do tips wear out from long periods of heat without being "wet" by the solder, but it gives peace of mind that you aren't going to burn the house down if you leave in a hurry. For about A$139 (US$100ish)...ok, so it was on special (A$169) but there are cheaper ones...you can't go wrong with something like this German made wonder! But, don't be fooled, only practice...just like playing the guitar..will make you good at it, I still burn my fingers occasionally. And by BTW soldering fumes are no good for anyone. I'm even thinking of rigging up an old computer fan to a bit of vacuum hose out the window...and I'm a smoker and I'm not even pregnant! Anyway, just thought I'd add this...if your serious, perhaps you should get serious, you'd pay this for a good drill or other tool, why skimp on the soldering iron. my 2 cents (1.4 cents Australian) psw

Hi...I'm Back... Direct from a little place called Violet Town (home of the band, Killing Hiedi, BTW). A friends made a sea change up there. My daughter had a B'day party to go near there as it happened and I had five hours to kill. Drove out down a dust bowl road (telegraph road, as it happens) just outside of Seymour and hung around with my notebook and pens. I've really kind of worked this thing out...just got to get some time to do it. One of the big pluses was the time to really think out the jigs required to easily produce multiples of the drivers. The driver/s are the key to this whole thing and is really the "invention", although the box and controls are starting to come together in a unique way. I just got a new improveded knob switch devised before I left...this one will be sturdier and easier to make and to use. I also got together some sketches of the "box", baring any more contributions, (you still there emre?) that takes elements of all of the designs shown and a few more twists of my own. Got a bit of an aeronautical look going. The design will be more flexible to peoples wants and will be easier to install internally, if you must, but you'll need the router and I think people will find this incarnation better anyway. I also am starting to look at in a broader sense but, to the relief of LK and Bio i'm sure, extentions to the system will be modular. I'll be working on the sustainer module, but have an extension module to it that you can add later, or separately, which I think will be real cool. The idea is batter than trying to put all the bells and whistles into one package. I'm going ahead with the present circuit, but I road in the back seat for the first hour and a half driving and worked out some circuitry that should enable me to make it, if not smaller, then at least less crowded and remove the complexity of wires (check out that photo!!!) and easier to do. That will require a cusom circuit board. I'll prototype it, then explore the options later...I have this version going first, then soundclips. Did a bit more on costing and supply. Looks like for most things, 25 seems to be the best comprimise for lots. That means making 25 at a time. I recently ordered some stuff on special that will enable me to have the parts for the new look driver. That's another thing that was finalized while I was away. Got quite a bit of domestic stuff to attend to so I may slow down on the project, but I really, really want to get this going so I'll try not to get diverted. One of those things is to clean up the room I've dedicated to this project (and side projects, and side, side projects...and that other project that's not finished yet) and get organised. If this goes as I expect it, and I end up gearing up a mini production line, I'll need space and organisation, so nows the time. Anyway, good to be back, was glad to get away... check you later, good to see you carrying on without me pete

That's really good advice Tim. I ran a bookbinding business from home for a few years. Dealing with paper and glue...material cost low...but the hours it takes. I was constantly surprised how often people gave me more money than I charged them, they were so happy with the results. BTW, thats were I get the skills to do thoses fiddly little bits and pieces. I actually enjoy the craft and the art of making these types of things! I'm a chronic perfectionist with an obsessive personality (you've probably noticed). That means I'll stick at it with as much as I've got to do something. Unfortunately, it means it takes a bit to finish anything cause it's never quite good enough. I tend to under charge (as I always think it's not quite perfect) as well...very bad for business. I really appreciate those on this forum who have encouraged me to keep on track...it's a useful trait, if you whats something really special though! Tim....good idea and I've been using DS tape up till now. One problem, the thing is trying to vibrate the string. If it's loose (like on springs, foam) it will spend as much energy trying to vibrate itself as it will the stings! Now here's the format of the new device: This uses the new small footprint. The single 9 volt battery is to be hidden within the guitar, but accesable (trem spring area, control cavity, etc) as this thing will eat batteries if used continuously (hence the recharging option and low battery feature. BTW I've 1000's of ideas and drawings like these....I never go anywhere without a notebook! My side of things, their still moving along, but I'll be away a few days so I'll give it a rest till then psw

Hey there fellow addicts! Still running at a hundred or so visits a day...more amazing is the number of contributions...fantastic! I mentioned patents. If an idea is stolen or too close to an idea, not only may there be a financial and legal cost, but the idea could be kept from development: Here's a patent, just on sustainer controls.... http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...er+AND+controls]Sustainer control patent This describes a switch on a pot (push/pull, etc). Now my idea is different but you can see that, with sufficeint $$ you can patent just about anything and effectively stop anyone else using it...even if you dont use it yourself! I have a number of features to the core function that I'm keeping to myself BTW for this reason. I was addicted to the USPTO site at one point while researching this thing. Now, I've made a third version of the original circuit (faster than trouble shooting the last one). I've used three boards and so have two main ones...35mmx45mm and 25mmx45mm plus the control board, then there are the controls and battery. If I wer to locate the battery somewhere in the guitar, we're looking at something really small before we get anywhere near SMD technology. The boards are lower...9mm highest, but by flipping one and aranging the components just so I've been able to sandwhich them to make a wedge, the area of the bigger board 15mm on one edge (the longer) tapering to 8mm on the other. I'm thinking of encapsulating this into a module of black epoxy which could be a part of the box or mounted inside with the othere stuff for an internal mounting application. I've got a few new ideas on the design but am looking forward to seeing what emre's got up his sleeve. Perhaps you guys visiting might like to give a thumbs up to some of the looks been presented here that you like. The other thing I've done is place an order for something that will make the driver light thing look really good (red lights only but others at considerably extra cost)and some other ideas on how to make it. I'd really appreciate some input on how to fix and adjust the height of the driver array under the strings. I can put screws on the ends, could use shims and tape or perhaps some kind of screws from below and a thumb wheel like thne-o-matics...I'm a little stuck here. Also that cost thing. I'd like some feedback on that. It's highly likely that this will end up being a speciallist, high quality, custom made item. That means it will take hours to make (hand soldering, etc) so will have to be costed accordingly. What kind of price point should I be aiming for? Should I simply aim to slightly better the others or should I make it more...or use cheap components (I'm using very high quality) to bring it down a little (most of the cost is in time I imagine). Every day a little closer...may be a way for a few days so this will give you guys something to work with see ya psw

Monkey, I'll have to consider your post a little 'cause I'm in a rush...(cooking dinner). Good to see your still with us though....g'day there! Stevie V...yours will be sold, sans box at a reduced price...but you gotta work out how to get it in there....OK! Tim, it is amazingly addictive for both those doing the stuff and those looking on. It's really trying on my family's nerves I can tell you. Ms. M (my 10 y.o.) says how come you spend so much time chatting about and not in the back room and finish it! She may be right....hmmm "shut up and play your guitar is her attitude" but then she rarely plays guitar, much to dads disappointment, (pretty handy with a violin though, she's got 4 now!) Well my strat thing went down like a lead balloon it seems...I was sold. Actually it clears the trem and is in reach of your fingers...not a good pic though. I just came on to make an urgent update. I got a message from Emre/transient on what he's cooking up. Wanted to know about dimensions and alternative circuit arrangements. I got the message just as I was about to assemble my third of the original design. This time I have changed the component layout on the board, separated it in two parts (I know that's cheating) and layered the actual boards together. It's heaps smaller and of course higher, but what It enables me to do is form the circuitry into a wedge shape. I'll comment more on the research I was doing at the internet caf another time. But it may have an influence on the way I proceed on production (nothing like a fast computer is there). I think in the end, I will decide what kinds of features from these ideas I will include, but it's really opened the door to some amazing possibilities and ideas. I have devised a way (I think) of making it not only smaller, but better and be adaptable to both right and left, behind the bridge, under the bridge or like stevie V, in the guitar (if you must). Their are certainly some great looks to include in the package. Now sound clips. It's frustrating me...it's the sound that's what it's all about. Those sound bytes were only intended to show that my miniture CPx technology actually produced an infinite sustain effect. I hope that when this thing is boxed up to do something ASAP for you all. My test guitar has little solder burns on it and only 5 strings. The sustainer isn't permanently fixed to anything so it's a little difficult to play. You'll have to trust me on this...it does work. With that, I've got to save dinner chow psw

Your absolutely right Bio, it's exciting...and I get carried away...more progress, bit by bit. I'm really putting the effort in at the moment as I wont have time later. I really want to see this thing through this stage. Here's a bit of an idea of what I was thinking on strat style guitars. The whole thin, Knobs and all would be no higher than the controls already on the guitar and wouldn't look that out of place. I can't wait till I can get this thing functioning on a moreplayable instrument, maybe a better player to to demonstrate it! If that image doesn't work out I'll have to fix it later see ya psw

Edited the above post a little. Reasearch into producing circuitboards in small numbers disapointing. Took out the soldering iron to see what I can do with some stuff I got the other day. Looks promising. I'm in the process of scaling back my more grandiose schemes and settling on the core project...got a bit carried away there. I'm making a little progress but it's hard going when you're learning as you go. Iam having trouble troubleshooting the completed circuit...I'm not sure why as it should be pretty much identical to the original one. Tested the new driver with the 5 LED's...checks out fine...however it is a little high. Those LED's and the wiring of them take up a little too much room. I hope you guys dont mind red...I've got some real small SMD LED's and I maybe able to get a whole lot more from this surplus place I found, really cheap. Only red or yellow available in packs of a hundred...do I want to commit myself. I got a pack of 10 the other day so may make the red line driver that onelastgoodbye illustrated a page or so back. I tested Tim's speedo idea and, yes I can do that, It has the advantage of protecting the switches too. I got these beautiful chrome surrounded LED's in read. Tried it out shining from behind the vol control on a strat and it gives a beautiful glow across the whole picguare and under the strings. Theier very bright but directional...perhaps this would be enough....well see I'll see if I can do a bit of a sketch of the strat thing. I can see how Tim's speedow controls could be used in this application, equally well...very classy! Got to run psw

Ok Tim, it's clearer now. Yeah I see the car design now. It's angled a little more towards the player and the knob would be easier to reach. It's bost post-modern and functional. Did you know, I live in Melbourne, Australia...reputed to be the worlds most livable city...anyway, practically every new building thats gone up in the last ten years and there's a lot at the moment near the docks, where I live (the poor side of town), looks as if the architects had faulty T-squares! Although now their into curves... Anyway, yeah it's pretty cool...a little dificult in parts. I take it it is the present circuit but with the switches closer to the knobs, or is the battery actually on top of the circuit making it a lot higher. (I'm guessing it is as is now, yes?) I see the floating effect was caused by the chrome reflections. I'll stand by my first impressions and say that overlaping that silver part and making the base of it a black cast plastic may be easier to do. Give me some time to live with it. I'd probably want the whole thing to open up to adjust those trimmers, although they could possibly be relocated...every extra length of cable adds to the oscillations that need to be controlled...technical problem you see! Well if I do this, I'll have to move those switches, wont I. The lights in there are a majorly cool feature, you've got the lights there for your own enjoyment, a little reflection on the players hands, a cinch to find the switch in the dark, but not too gaudy that it looks like it's trying too hard. Let's face it, all these lights are only for show...but hey, as LK says "if it glows, it goes! I've got the stuff to make them too...aluminium tube and 3mm plate will do the trick. The rubbing of the hands on the alloy will keep it nice and shiny, or take it to a reputable car detailer for a cut and polish . The name's do-able...I don't fancy having to hand cut the font, so well see what I can do there. Stevie V has the right location but the thing will have to be a bit bigger...(wider and longer with the jack socet raised and parralel with the guitar's face)....perhaps we should wait till I can give more details. I did try to make it as simple as that but you would have to carve a hole in there and have switches you know. I'm working on incorporating the "sustain-driver-name-that-shall-not-be-named" into a deluxe system. Now that we have crossed a big hurdle of acceptance of a real time guitar mounted "effect", and have onboard power, we have both the room and the technology, for little extra expense to go a whole lot further. It's really exciting the possibilities! Something like this could really change the conservatism of the guitar community in both look and sound as well as the technique of players...truely great stuff. As I say, the driver thingy, is the core so I'd better get that right first I suppose! My new circuit is coming along. Is about 6mm high (9mm pots will be the highest, with low profile knobs it should be no higher than the controls already on a strat! If it goes as intended, the "system" should have 2 knobs and four switches...excessive, I think not! (ok maybe a little) but this thing will be able to do things to your sound that no effects boxes (yes, racks included) are going to be able to do. Not the least because, it will be all right there at your finger tips. AND, you get to keep your guitar completely intact. I have a design for both a LP and Strat, and ideas for the rest, plus internal mounting...if you must. OK, to my young friend mushy! I'd prefer to keep production costs private as they can be misconstrued. I remember saying early in the thread that I was making prototype drivers for less than a dollar a string. Therefore you should only have to pay $6 and a tip right? Wrong! What I can say is that I've costed the thing out and it is certainly do-able, for a custom made short run thing sold direct and hand crafted by me, OR, from some major corporation churning out thousands! I can tell you this, this has taken hundreds of valuable man hours from me and from my wife and kids for letting me (though their patience is waning) and more money than I'd admit to them or you. I'm detirminded to do this thing and do it I will! So, price? Well someone provide me with details if they can...I think sustainiacs system costs about $500 Australian and you loose a pickup and then there's installation, etc. I'd like to see it come in around $350. If you look at the price of effects boxes or pickups, that sounds reasonable, don't it? In fact it may be too cheap, a lot of work in this you know. I'll be back to edit this later... Alright, I'm down the internet cafe with a latte! Now this is a computer and the coffee's better too. Didn't get to do that testing I was going to do...may be tomorrow. I better use this time and fast computer to do a little more research. Once I get the details finalized...that means a few more prototypes, a lot more testing, testing by others is very important, design acceptance...I was thinking of leaving a test instrument with some music shops for a week to see what they and their customers thought about the system...I really want to be able to move on producing them. That in itself is a lot of work and expense. We're looking at supply of parts and assembly of circuits, jigs to make the drivers, moulds to make, cost/time analysis, setting up a workshop for the task...it's a big commitment to get something like this from the inventor to the customer. Fortunately we have the internet I s'pose so I'm not trapped by a small Australian population and economy. Then there's the whole question of patents to protect it! I really don't know what to do there. I don't have the money...it sounds expensive.(no this is not a pitch for investors). I could sell the idea to a company who will take out the rights in their name but pay me up front for the concept. Someone suggested I might be able to sell enough on the sly to pay for a patent. I can apply for a provisional or even full patent in Australia, but it means disclosing all for the world to see. I then have 18 months to take out world rights before the vultures with the money swoop down on the idea. Then there's going to be people contesting my patent. Obviously it is related to other system by vertue of what it does regardless of how I do it. I believe it is an original approach, but do I have the money to fight them and pay all those lawyers....oh the stress, let's just get this thing together while I've got this insomnia I've had lately I'll check you later psw PS The australian dollar is worth about 70 cents to the $US. That means when I talk dollars it goes in your favour...deduct 30%....now I think it is too cheap. Perhaps you guys could guide me, how much would you expect to pay for something like this and how much should I let it out for given the above difficulties in getting it out there.

I'm really enjoying this part of the process...the design ideas. I hope, like me you guys are seeing the potential here. All sorts of things may be possible if a device like this caught on, I already have ideas for something that has a lot more bells and whistles on it, but even effects that require a fair amout of user interface, could get up off the floor and onto the guitar. All you effects dudes should pay attention to this even if the sustainer system isn't for you! Thought I might do a bit of a critique of onegoodbye's design. Tim has gone for a neat clean lined modern approach to the current circuit configuration (luckily). What I like about this is the thing seems to float above the guitar, it doesn't look "stuck on". Without seeing the other views (can't wait) that silver plate seems to sit over the guitar. I'm not sure what's happening with the controls there. I would have to modify the design to allow for my switched. I had thought of putting the name illuminated like that but I'm not sure if I mentioned it...very nice effect and terrific brand identity...and it would reflect nicely of the silver plate. On looking at it I'd be making two black plastic casts. A base and control area and the black top piece which would hinge backwards from behind the switches and knob (which are secured to the base section). A 3mm alluminium plate would give the silver piece a look of strength and could be screwed on to the top piece from underneath. Not only would the plate provide shielding, but it would also reflect light from the logo. The name would be cast in and a diffuse plastic sheet could be slotted in behind. A high bright LED (use a bit of power but hey, I could maybe put a switch in there if you did'nt want it on) could simply sit above the circuit board and a reflector help spread the light. Perhaps I was wrong with the retro idea. I can see this on my Black Les Paul Custom, no worries. I suppose though, it should be said this is not the last word on the look of...whatever it's called . Even now I'm working on the smaller circuit and it's slimmer (about 6mm thick!), lot's neater than the prototype and has increased functionality...which I'll keep to myself for now. I just hope it works! I'll try and do some more testing and see if I can get it going. I'm going to have to disconnect the inbuilt bells and whistles not featured on the old working circuit and test the new driver on the old one, etc. Frustrating troubleshooting. I think you can see from all those wires, one out of place or shorted out, and at best it wont function, at worst it will burn something out and I wont know which part it is. anyway, got to get busy with other stuff, but cant wait to see some more... psw

Ooops, forgot to track the topic. Thanks for the reply guys, SRV's China Girl solo would'nt be the same without that last note bent out of tune on those 0.13's he used...if only he'd had that extra fret...I know it wouldn't be the same. Thanks frank, thats exactly what I was thinking, perhaps even going back two or three frets to be sure and joining it under a fret slot. A lot more likely to be done than me trying to get the whole fretboard off. If I were that good I would'nt bother with the neck at all and just make one. Anyway, the projects getting there, so I'll need something that suits cheers psw