psw

Hey There A. got to KISS Believe it or not, I actually tried the piezo idea and had a leaver idea to improve the throw so that the piezo would move a mag. I'm having trouble getting piezos and the buzzers are a pain to cut as you lose some crystals... What this did achieve is an interesting piezo/magnetic hybrid pickup that may have some potential (I think I can hear Larry DiMarzio running to the patent office now...). Basically, if you glue a magnet to a piezo, as the string vibrates it causes the magnet to move generating a signal in the piezo. It's a kind of coiless magnetic PUp! It also senses the string in a totally different way that I intend to follow up on! If you used my polarity balancing trick you might even get a better response and lower adverse effects on the other PUps. You would do this by placing opposing mags on the piezo, either side of the string. The magnetism is contained by travelling through the string, from side to side, rather than along - in other words is very localised - so my theory goes! Lovekraft What do you reckon...tone generator to coil then back to analyser, commons connected, no mic...analyse resonant frequency...add components to suit response desired... Sleep tight...its 7am here! psw

Andreas I really appreciate you taking time out to contribute and I doubt anyone really minds the length of posts too much if you've got someting to say. Anyway, they don't have to read it but I noticed that this thread just past 1000 views and look at the length of my posts What your saying about the way in which the string vibrates is very relevant. This is an important area that I guess we haven't dealt with too much. It would be interesting to see what effect different drive signals have on the vibrations, and what are the limits to the type of sounds a string (and the wood, etc) can produce. The adverse effects on tone however is, I believe, created by the effects of powerful magnets on the string and the changing of the shape of the field around the pickups. This is present whether the device is on or off. Say your pickup has a south polarity and further down the string is a driver with a powerful south polarity. The fields repel eachother and so the PUp is sensing a smaller area of the string. Conversely, if the driver has a north polarity, the PUps field is attracted and so the field is distorted such that less is travelling through the core of the PUp to be picked up...if you see what I mean... I should have drawn a pic before I started the post, ay. I must do this stuff offline. There could be something here to explore in adjusting the tone of pickups by the addition of static magnets near pickups to reshape the field...I can imagine a humbucking mounting ring with tiny mags to concentate the field on a smaller area of sting to get a more P-90 tone perhaps...hmmmm The CP5x, the cage device and other ideas I've tried, are designed to produce a polarity neutral zone for the string. As it vibrates, the string alternates between more north or south. It senses (or drives) the strings in a side to side motion predominantly, very different from conventional coils, and...according to my theories...is very efficient in both containing magnetic radiation and in operation as it utilizes all of the field in its own localised area. Anyway, stick to your studies and good luck with the exams, your input is truely appreciated. Remember, we all have theories here but don't reference them as we really are feeling in the dark, and the patents could well be BS too...don't let us confuse you wishing you well from downunder... psw

Well if we had an o-scope and knew how to use it we could mabe debunk the phase difference I guess...anyone want to try out there!!!!! Meanwhile...yep, stomp boxes galore. I tried to use a flanger as a means to alter the phases on my original experiment years ago. What I got was a real interesting sound as it would catch a frequency (harmonic) then drop it as another would predominate and the rate would change as the harmonics got closer at either end of the sweeps...interesting. I'll try a fuzz as well to get a square wave. I've got a tone generator on the PC so I thought there maybe a way of optimizing coils by testing with pure tones and measure it's response somehow...any ideas there? Meanwhile, I'm gearing up to make a hex piezo undersaddle PU for the test strat as a source for each driver...be great to get acoustic sounds and infinite sustain and the posibility of hex effects. Perhaps a simple midi out breakout box to drive software sequences and notation software... Well, maybe... baby steps psw

LK...now we are on the same page This is exactly my thinking and in my lost reply, I detailed just such a system. With a hex driver, it should be looked at as a six way speaker system with each driver tailored specifically to the power and frequency requirements of the string it is trying to drive. I built such a system but am having trouble getting the details right...more later Now, for something real stupid... I thought, what the hell, I'll just wind a driving coil around a single coil ith some steel wire between, running completely separate from the instrument. Turns it into a transformer...got the same result that you would get putting a transformer near a guitar...terrible hum from about two feet away... Well, perhaps that was a little too nieve...time to get cleaver again cheers psw

Oh No... I had this really good response last night but lost contact with the server and it appears to have gone...doh! The jist of it was that I keep coming around to LK's point of view. That I think that the resonant frequency of the coil may play a bigger role than the phase shift since then there's been a few more posts so briefly... Daveq I can't say that I have had access to any sustainers down here in oz. The model C was the first sustainer that I heard and was featured on a Guitar Player flexidisc and was incredibly impressed and got my balls rolling For those who dont know, the model C attaches to the headstock and uses a mains powered stomp box and the leaverage of the neck to kind of vibrate the whole instrument. I imagine the effect is a little like the trick of pushing the guitar head against the amps speaker baffle or cab to elicite feedback. It does involve a few extraneous wires, etc. It is the only system that allows you to patch effects into the drive signal...wayy cooll... which gets you into the natural synthersizer concepts I talked about. What I'm exploring is the more common electromagnetic drivers such as the sustaniac stealth system (see Links post above). These do have shortcomings...tone, battery life, predominace of notes over others, limitations o pickup choice, extensive modifications to the instrument... They have the advantage of being more an intregal part of the instrument and I like that idea...plus I like tinkering...and I don't like it when I can't get stuff to work...and I don't think it should be as complicated as the patents make out (witness the ebow)...and there's still alot of avenues left to explore. I really do believe that someone will take something like this, make some amazing music, and change the whole guitar scene...(oh Jimi, where art thee now in our hour of need) Ansil - CP5x uses metal to direct the power up and over the string. Measuring the strings position with my hall detector thingy, this is exactly neutral. This means no string pull, no dampening, no adverse tone effects and remarkable EMI control. The changing field is altomatically attracted to the opposing identical change in the other coil and the power of the magnet, which can be substantial can be added to because both poles are actively involved in moving the string. The motion of the string is indeed from side to side or circular like it would be naturally, not up and down which CP1 for instance did exclusively - less distortion and more control for the next step. Remember also that this thing is tiny 5x5x12mm. In fact, the deflector is made from common staples...now thats DIY ...there goes another secret Now youv'e let on that you have trided to replicate the ebow...tell me more I retried it with CP1 and realize now that I had the driving amp earthed to the guitar so it was not completely isolated as the ebow obviously is...still working on that. I seem to have some success driving a string with miniture ferrite inductors and that is where I'm heading at the moment...cheap...consistant...tiny...and I don't have to wind them . I still think there are merits to ferrite cores as they transmit but don't hold a permanent magnetism too well so should therefore be more responsive...or so i'm thinking Lovekraft...what can I say...I'm honoured . Don't back down though as you may indeed be the voice of reason! Andreas I know you're out there! With your physics background...what is the effect of vibrating a string from it's end (say bridge) on the propagation as the waves travel down the string...will it amplify, as in small waves become bigger? Obviously vibration is transmitted through the bridge to the instrument, what is the effect of the reverse? This may relate to the model C which vibrates from the nut end. Anyway...got to run...great stuff all psw

Now that took some doing and satisfies some for a while I'll just divert the subject... I'm hoping to add graphics to my posts (the colors aren't enough for me!) so lets try this... OK, so if that worked you should be able to access a jpeg (or will it just show up?) of the cross section of the CP5x coil design Yes it does work in a fashion In fact I was so enthused I went ahead and built a hex version with a wiring fault...well that wasted 2 days!!!!! Intrigued to know what you think... psw

You know, maybe I should try something like this to drive my hex drivers...hmmm Has anyone cut up the buzzers and put them under the individual saddles of a strat? I'm hoping to get six signals of coarse...or s this not practical psw

LINKS It’s been very neglectful and selfish of me to focus on my experiments and theories without referencing the basis of them. Especially since I promised links, etc. and haven’t posted any! – now that I’ve got a little bit of a handle on the controls – here goes... PATENTS For those interested but not checked them out yet patents and the secrets within can be accessed free at USPTO Patent Search You will need to download a viewer to see the actual original documents with diagrams The referenced by and cited by links will automatically send you to related patents so you can check out the origins of ideas and where they are going – much fun! Warning – you may soon start thinking in patent-speak and, like me, use a thousand words and still confuse the hell out of everybody!!!!! Now to sustainers... Here is a great little article on Michael Brooks Infinite Guitar and it’s heritage to the Sustainiac, Fernandes and Floyd Rose systems and a little of the secret workings of his! Infinite Guitar Article Ok, now... For Lovekraft, Ansil, et. al.... Perhaps the best for explaining the problem and lengths gone to by some to solving the phase shift dilemma (Heet’s Ebow not withstanding) is contained in Floyd Rose’s 1995 patent 5,233,123 Floyd Rose Sustainer Patent 1995 Because of the length of these documents I’ll spend the time to quote from them so that everybody need not wade through them as I did...so...from Floyd Rose page 7 = (FR7) Regarding phase shifts (FR7) Details of the complex circuitry and formulas for lag and lead compensating (FR11-17) Ansil – (FR18) describes an alternative means by using a phototransistor which may be of interest to you. The phase shift circuitry involves (FR21) Basically the f to v converter seems to switch in various capacitors with frequency Another important patent is from Osbourne and Hoover 1999 (=OH) 5,932,827 This seems to relate to the Sustainiac Stealth System Sustainiac Stealth Website Osbourne and Hoover Sustainiac Patent 1999 This patent utilizes means to eliminate feedback (EMI shielding) and a means to conserve battery life. There is a description here of adverse effects of prior drivers on the tone of the guitar (OH17-18) For more on this subject, I found this discussion: Adverse Tone Effect Discussion Anyway, back to the phase shifts...(OH18) On energy conservation (OH20) On multi-string (one driver for all six) vs. single string (six individual drivers)...(OH26) On amplitude and frequency compensation (OH43) OK, so there’s a smattering of the current state of play, except for the ubiquitous (just wanted to use that word) Ebow patent Ebow Patent Now, this is a lot to digest I know. I don’t have much experience in electronics (been teaching myself for this project) nor do I have a background in physics or the heavy-duty mathematics that I'm running into. What I hope to do is defeat this with guile, ingenuity, creativity and a lot of luck. ..oh and your contributions ....keep them up Hope this helps further our discussions psw

Frankie If my avitar could turn around, I'd axe you face to face now it's been axed in the back...... Now where was I... Copy a link...hmm I'll just press this and this.... http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...RS=PN/5,233,123 ok so that posted the URL but not as a hyperlink...so let's try this... Floyd Rose Sustainer Patent OK...now where cooking well that beats typing out the above and posting wong inks ere an dere cheers (watch out frankie the axe man cometh...or is that a hammer...well I probably play a hammer as well as I play my axe...)

Needed a place to test out some of these controls so here it is..... Let's see now...posting a link Sustainiac website Ok I see, but doyou really have to type everything in ? I mean can't you copy from somewhere, I'm bound to make mistakes

OK OK OK LK i'm sorry to get into this again...you may be right The basis of my drive circuit is a simple 386 amp with no added extras but an output cap and powered by a 9v (8.4v) rechargable battery. That seems to be the basis of the ebow as you point out. And I know the ebow works...so...why can I not repeat this with a proven coil (CP1) and a conventional guitar pickup separate from the guitars signal ??????????????? Reports on the internet of people who appear to have opened them up confirm this. I took what you have said on board and ignored this area for some time (fearing engeneeriosis) with some positive results and some interesting coil designs that do seem to increase efficiency, as I have documented. Early experiments showed that with enough power you can get it a string to vibrate by forcing it into phase with the driving signal. I found that not only was this power impractical, it pulled the string out of tune markedly and had very different responses to different frequencies. Acoustic feedback is related to phase shift. The angle and proximity of the guitar is crucial to achieving a reliable result. This compensates for phase shift via manipulating sound reflections, creating that minute delay required. Hence the amazing art of controling it in this manner. Look, I've got to go but I've found my 2" thick patent folder and will give you some numbers in the next couple of hours... psw

Oh yeah, I'm reminded of this great idea that was put forward as a April fools joke in the UK Guitar Magazine - The Tickler. Programmed with a scale, it would give you an electric shock through the strings if you played a bum note. A very convincing review with photos and everything of the device. Another year they created a missing gibson design - The Thunderbolt - the rare 4th of the Explorer, Flying V and Moderne designs. It was a flying V, cut down the middle with the top half reversed making a pointed upper horn. So good that some forgeries appeared in the States shortly afterwards, one bought for a large sum by Rick Nielson from Cheap Trick! worth checking out their April editions

Great Andreas, I'd benefit from some co-experimentation. When I get some pictures up it will have better details so you can repeat and refine some of my experiments too... However...BE CAREFUL... AC currents can kill ! ! ! ! ! It's not simply a matter of voltage Magnetic fields though are relatively harmless and the static magnets require no energy themselves to run. AC currents are not something I'd fancy putting through the strings of a guitar though Im aware of the potential. The string acts as a single conductor as if in a coil and is not very efficient at all compared to layered conductors at creating magnetic fields. What it perfectly shows is the power of resonance. That is why the sustainer patents have complicated circuits to harness this efficiency by making allowances for phase differences etc. What you saw was that when the frequency of the power applied matched the frequency of the string (or was close enough to it) its response was dramatic. The problem is that electromagnets take time to establish it's field and to lose it. The result is that although it is intrinsically powered by the frequency of the string (it's generated from it afterall), This effect causes a 90 degree phase shift so that the maximum power is attained at the very point that the sound wave is turning negative. The amount of phase shift is also a product of frequency so it is not simply a matter of shifting everything with some kind of set delay (although a tiny delay altered according to frequeny would work - any ideas Ansil?) When there is more than one string being played there is a complicated signal for which only some portions are related to each string. A Hex pickup and driver system would address this, being effectively six Ebows. Currently I'm approaching the driver element by having a hex driver with each coil tuned to the frequencies typical of it's string. Effectively a crossover. This is a compromise but one that should work more efficiently and less complicated than current sustainers. Using tiny, but very powerful, localised magnetic fields, I'm hoping that this will provide alot of the "power" and small coils need only be used to upset the balance between the N & S poles. The issue of phase shift I hope to address by using series and parallel capacitors and resistors in addition to the inductor coils of the electromagnets. If anyone has some specialised knowledge of RCL circuits and how to configure the values needed, I'd love to hear from you...otherwise it's trial and error Of course the other issue is that anything that uses the pickups fields will cause a problem with interferance and also trigger unrelated resonances in the pickups themselves. Strong magnetic fields will also effect the sound of the guitar even when the sustainer is not in use unless very carefully contained. Simply running a signal through the string will cause feedback, but not necessarily in a manner desired to actually drive the string. More like Ansils Sustainer Mod which, unless my attempts were poor, creates this effect. (Perhaps you should call it a feedbacker mod, Ansil) Anyway, I'm delighted to here that your inspired to play around with these ideas in the real world. It's fascinating stuff to explore with strings and wires and even if the effect may not be quite what you were looking for you will be assured of an effect type you later psw

Andreas It could really be as simple as that, I'm getting something happening. A few months back I got the brainwave of passing the string through the core of a coil. I mounted it behind a tune-o-matic bridge. It was pretty crude but I did get it to vibrate. I cant recall now if there even was a bridge pickup to work against. (It's dismantled now but it used to have a neck humbucker only). Come to think of it, I may have placed a small magnet under the string immediately after the bridge to work against. There were alot of ideas. I found a small prototype in the junk box which had a driving coil (wrapped around a steel rivet with iron powder in it's centre) and two magnets either side (N & S). The idea was that the string would be magnetised by the core and simultaneously attracted by one and repelled by the other from side to side. As I recall, that worked in a fashion just ahead of the bridge. I wasn't testing for radiation at that stage (it probably wasn't plugged in!) and was using the soundcard speakers with a software tone generator so it had heaps more power than you could get from a battery amp. The original test coil for what became CP5x (which was abandoned) used the same type of balancing act of the string being between the two poles of a sideways mag. (It has no string pull, so a very powerful magnet can be used!) Two coils were used to upset this balance and so vibrate the string. This also worked but was tricky to make (tiny coils) Anyway, the point is that you can drive the string from the bridge end, especially with a matching resonant frequency (I tuned the string to the tone generator so it operated only on it's fundumental). I really do think that there could be a way for the drive to come from stimulating the bridge magnetically (there is no mechanical vibration going on). Being metal it could make an ideal magnetic shield. There may even be some kind of physics at work here that I'm not familiar with. Perhaps the string vibrates because it is being stimulated magnetically at it's resonant frequency on some kind of molecular level? Purely speculating, as I have no idea! will type again soon psw P.S. A lesson for us all - don't let the kids near the computer - they killed my mouse - who needs a better mousetrap when there is a nine and a two year old in the house

Well yes...and yet. This is the principle that current sustainers use. I have been able to drive a string from the bridge and I'm not sure exactly how it's working. The principle is to send the magnetic pulses along the string itself. Perhaps it is being moved around by the magnetic field of the first pickup the pulses meet. It is perhaps more likely that, unlike conventional pickups that sense (or in this case drive) a small portion of the string, this is driving at, of all places a guaranteed node where all vibrations meet. Therefore just ahead of this node is the place where you can be guarenteed that all vibrations occur. Harder to drive physically, but, more chances to hit resonant frequencies. The resonance is what multiplies the power. Various configurations were being tried just prior to joining this forum. At that point I was searching for people who had done a DIY ebow. Ansil's Sustainer Mod came up. The result was that I was returning to conventional coils just to get something working. By the way, I have done quite a bit of playing with the program FEMM which is freeware. It is a magnetic field simulation program. It's been great in showing me the effects of various materials and magnet types and sizes have. It is not the real world so have moved on but it's great for working out ideas. Another thing that I made recently was a Magnetic field detector. This has been really usefull to check what is going on with the invisible magnetic field circuits. off to work... psw

Cheers LK - I'll get onto it Greg P's avatar has given me the finger in the right direction By the way, I'm getting a handle on the phase problems we spoke about way back when. They do matter for efficiency as they alter the resonance of the coil, although, you're also right that the string can be forced to resonate in phase with the coil (about 90 degrees out of phase) but with significantly more powerand altered response. It seems, that now I'm working on a real world guitar, CP1 was (coincidentally)ideally matched to the g string WCS test guitar. It worked well all along this string. Current designs take the signal from the guitars pickup (it's hard enough to make the driver, let alone a dedicated PUP!), into a hex driver. I'm expecting to takle this problem by wiring the coils with a passive crossover type circuit. Capacitors in series and in parallel have opposite lead and lag times when wired with inductors it appears. I hope to use this to roughly tune each driver coil to it's string. The coils that I'm using at the moment are truely tiny and of extremely low impedance. I'm using resistors to bring this up. I learn't today how a current divider works and hope to use six parallel resistors of various sizes to divy up the power. This is important because the thinner strings, of less mass, are harder to drive. In fact, CP1 can not drive the high e at all on the real guitar. I feel that this is related mostly to the resonate frequency of the coil. Here's another interesting phenomenon. CP1 was extremely efficient when attached to the test guitars truss rod adjustment nut (at the body end) by it's magnet. I originally thought that this was because it was being held stable (not trying to vibrate itself). Rather it is that huge rod of metal that was acting as a type of ballast to the opposite of the driving pole. This was shown by sticking the magnet to the end of a 5mm drill bit, producing a similar result. This discovery has rekindled my idea of building the driver into the bridge as this too provides a conveniant hunk of metal to work with... Anyway...off to bed, then up at 4am and back to the warehouse job for a while good morning from Australia...and good night psw

No way could you have read all that so fast!!!!! Ansil. Seriously, thanks Oh' in case someone suggests it, I've tried copy and paste between paint and explorer but its not happening. Things would be alot clearer with a picture I'm sure and...well... it would save a thousand words...several thousand in my case! psw

Ansil - Great stuff. I take it is monophonic, yes? Would there also be a tracking issue like with my octaver? Not to worry, the world needs new effects. Keep it up. I've been busy...you can't type with a soldering iron in hand! Andreas - you got me thinking and I came up with some new ideas and another approach to the coil design. I built a single string prototype which seemed to work well. So well as far as containing EMI that I had it running within 1cm of the bridge pickup that was driving it. I was so encouraged I dropped CP4 for a bit even though it was all set to wind and went ahead and built a hex version CP5x. 12 miniture 4x4mm hand wound coils, 6 identical revese wound pairs. The principle used was to have the string in balance between the poles of a powerful magnet and then use these tiny coils to upset this balance...so cool, and yet.... I think the design holds promise both for a driver or a pickup, but I may have made some errors in the internal connections between the coils and I had to set the thing in glue as the tiny components are so delicate, and...ah...I'll just put this aside for a bit I think... Still, lessons learnt. Although it did'nt drive the string as I intended, the wiring fault caused it to fight an internal battle trying to maintain the balance rather than upset it. I guess, due to inconsistancies between the coil pairs, it struggled. Anyway, I mention this to illustrate the following... Modifying the driving signal is not simply a matter of adding an effect. My problem is that in my designs, I'm trying to avoid the pickups picking up the signal. It's not like playing an orchestra into a pickup. In this scheme you are using the speaker and pickup coils as a kind of transformer or microphone. What I'm trying to do is send a signal to change the way the string itself fundumentally vibrates! So a noise gate doesn't sound like a gate, rather it is used to set threasholds for the drive signal so that only intentionally played notes will sound (theoretically). I think I mentioned this before, but years ago when I first tried to experiment with this, I ran the signal through a flanger which produced amazing bird chirpy swoops as the phase passed through various component harmonics...It sounded nothing like a flanger, per se! The internal battle within my aborted CP5x produces this wonderful detail behind the note. Related harmonics are brought out and disappear like a kind of tinsel, especially as the note dies away and the driver wins and loses the battle to drive the various harmonics, beautiful. Now thats what I'm talking about! These and many other effects are just waiting to be discovered I'm sure. But it is not simply an effect, it is an extention of the natural qualities of the instrument - individual and highly responsive to the players touch. It amplifies, if you like the qualities that we all love in the guitar, the way it responds to the player. So my quest, eventually will lead not only to infinite sustain, but to use that ability to drive the string, to drive them in new and interesting ways..I have a dream... So, back to my failings. I've switched my test bed from the one string WCS guitar to a strat. I've put the basic amplifier and battery into a small box taped to the guitar and am taking the guitar signal from a double adaptor drirectly from the jack socket. The experiments are gradually getting into the real world. Anyway, got to run for now. Fantastic to see the interest and inspiration later psw P.S. Got some promising new ideas for constructing these miniture coils that will make the whole process easier and faster and save whats left of my hair! P.P.S. Could someone tell me how to post .bmps to save on text. PPPS Ansil, got any ideas to stop the signal being loaded by the circuit, some kind of low power buffer, I think it's effecting the performance...cheers PPPPS Have I mentioned that these driver ideas will work in reverse as an active hex pickup, perhaps just the thing to drive the front end of your mono effects, Ansil...

Andreas All ideas are appreciated. I know I'm wordy but I'm no expert. Basically I'm just like you with some experience mucking around with magnets and wires in search of a dream! The humbucking description is how existing sustainers are configured generally. One string at a time....well you have to be good at string damping, just like with a super loud guitar, and you can control the sensitivity (power). All six strings typically do vibrate if not dampend but the driver is only feeding back the signal that it recieves. The strings respond to the driving signal, very much more so, if they have the same resonant frequency. The pickup maybe trying to drive all of the strings but only the string that is played will have exactly the resonant frequency of the signal as it created it, if you get what I mean. It would be possible to enhance the effect if desired by having a kind of noise gate circuit so that notes will not be driven unless they are loud enough to cross a given threshold. Hex PUPs and Hex drivers: Each string could be activated individually though if you were to make 6 PUs and 6 drivers - A Hex Pickup Driver. The current working prototype - CP1 - is a single string driver. Basically a 10mm circular coil. It is small enough that 6 could be placed alongside eachother in a single coil package. You could have six switches, say behind the bridge, that activates each of the coils. You could perhaps use a Hex driver with the guitars normal PUs switching drivers to activate in a similar way, or visa-versa, a hex pickup with string selection switching (say a bridge piezo system) and a common driver. There is an effect that I have noticed that will dampen all sound output from the PUs by sending a driver signal opposite to the input and putting them over one another. The effect could perhaps be used to automatically deactivate unplayed strings from the driver. My Designs I have been working on very small drivers for a number of reasons. One theory that I have is that the smaller the coil the less radiation and the more focused the magnetic power the less interfence with the other PUs. Magnetic deflection and cancellation coils as well as coil orientation in relation to the other PUs are other avenues I'm exploring. I'm trying to keep the electronics very simple and address string response issues with the coil designs. If an effective design can be accomplished it would add a whole new dimension to guitar playing. Playing a standard guitars may seem like playing a violin without a bow - limiting! The next step... But wait theres more..... The sound of the guitar is a product of the way in which the strings vibrate. So consider this. If the drive signal is modified (remember you don't hear the drive signal, it serves only to activate the strings) they whole character of the sound can be controlled. You don't just have unlimited sustain but a kind of natural syntheser that effects the sound not by modifing the signal like an effects box, but by actually changing the way the string fundumentally vibrates! Now that would be cool. But for now it's back to the drivers cheers psw

Thank's guys I really appreaciate the support for the project. I'm really quite tenacious yet nothing should be considered too silly to try. I have a feeling that the final solution will be not too complex but a combination of ideas, observations and coincidences that will fall into place. For instance, I was playing around with CP1 to assure myself of the goal and that the thing works at least in one form, when a stray piece of 2mm piano wire attached itself to the rare earth mag. I duely pointed it at the string right next to the bridge close to the active pickup and it drove the string in a fashion, perhaps as well as CP2 & CP3 which are far more complex. Such a pointed magnetic field is extremely focused but as it is located at the bridge end of the string it is immune from the problems of string bending. It also holds the potential for the actual coil, which creates alot of the magnetic interfence, to be located deep within the guitar or behind the bridge well away from the pickups. I'd tried this type of thing before as it would leave the guitar fully functional and modification could be restricted say to the bridge but wouldn't have thought that such a simple idea would have worked. People reading of my experiments should bear in mind that I conduct them on what I've now dubbed my WCS Guitar (Worst Case Scenario). It is a 3/4" piece of pine with a crap neck, a piece of aluminium for a bridge, one string and a super cheap single coil with a giant ceramic magnet below it. All of the wiring is unshielded and I'm using (crocodile clips which should act as an antenna) to connect the test cores. I figure that if I can get it to work acceptably on this it will work on anything!!!! keep up the feedback... psw

Check out the winders on these sites: Designed to wind and Guitar Attack Also, I got Jason Lollar's book and its great for giving you ideas. I've made several but I canablise one to make the next! My current model uses a sewing machine motor to turn a bench grinder. The stones were replaced with plastic, perspex faced wheels so that I can attach bobbins with double sided tape. The wire feeds from above and is double sided so that it can reverse wind on the opposite side or wind two coils identically at the same time. I have built a auto-traversing section to it but haven't got it running. Am thinking of using stepper motors instead of my toy gearbox to move the wire evenly from side to side. Meanwhile I just hand feed it. Not being able to leave it alone (sic) I have a counter and tachometer and it can run at over 3500 rpm!!!!!! (of course in use about 500 is adequate) But don't go overboard like me, I knew I would need something accurate for the experimental stuff I'm doing. (see sustainer ideas and rare earth magnet threads) I saw a photo of the winder Leo Fender put together at G+L to wind their pickups and it was very primitive (made of wood I think). I visited Maton Guitars when I was a kid and saw their winder - Meccano! These are commerial operations!!!! good luck psw

LK Damn you're quick. You guested the secret core material! Can't get tubeolator in Oz yet so I made my own by drying the cat's furballs in hot air then mix with super glue and glow in the dark nail varnish. Evens out the odd harmonics and can even accentuate the odd! WARNING : Do not take orally, the product has been pre-digested. Seek professional advice should tubeolator persist psw

I'm hooked on TurboDraw. It's great, it's free but it's only 2D! I've tried a few other 3D programs including TurboCad but my computer is so old it's starting to rust (literally!) and newer versions won't run. Generally the step from 2D to 3D seems to be a big leap of time and patience! Still, it must cut down on the number of bad ideas being pursued (or does it increase them?) best of luck, keep us posted psw

By the way, I've built Coil Prototype 3 - CP3 CP1 was a simple circular 12mm coil with a ferrite core. CP2 was fairly rough but proved and developed a number of theories. mainly - that super slim coils were practical and workable. - that a simple bobbin design was easy to create. - that it was possible to produce side to side movement - that powerfull magnets could be used without excessive attraction to the string (causing intonation problems, etc) if it was controlled - that my "cage" magnetic focussing device could be utilized to enable the above two points as well as reduce radiation. CP3 was finished today. CP3 is as slim as CP2 (2mm) but uses finer wire and is only 10mm wide. The "cage" adds another 2mm so 12mm in total. It is designed to operate across all strings and is slightly flexable as it happens, so may be shaped to the string radius. In addition, I created an identical air core version to try to cancel the radiation. The whole is now 5mm thick, a little much to fit on my strat but kind of works on my test guitar. Let's just say it's promising! Still alot of testing still to go and I have plans to bi-amp the design but I already have the next one in mind. CP4 will develop this further with a novel concentric coil approach to keep the thickness down (about 3mm) but go back to the thicker wire so as to handle more current. CP3 used a powdered pure iron core. CP4 will utilize a secret alternative material to increase responsiveness and further focus the field. It's only theoretical at the moment so I'd like to see how it goes. got any suggestions or comments to keep me enthused, feel free psw

Current sustainers on the market or been developed, of the type I'm working on, are about the same size of a single coil. Examples are the sustainiac, fernandes, micheal brook infinite guitar, floyd rose had one, as did hamer. Typically they replace the neck pickup but may also be used as a pickup when the sustainer is not in use or teamed with another single coil in a humbucker sized format. It's interesting that you mention putting it under the pickup as I had thought of doing that with my super slim device, driving it through the pickup itself. Regular contributor, Ansil, has a sustainer mod featured in the tutorial section. This is simply a speaker under the pickup with a tiny amplifier to create feedback. As I understand it though it does not drive the string but creates a feedback loop through the pickup itself. Unfortunately I, like others haven't had much luck with this though Ansil swears it works (and if someone would just get a sound clip on the site they would be real popular I'm sure!) My goal is to produce a device that will make a note that will sustain for as long as you want, have touch control of the note's attack (swells, etc), it's tone and it's harmonic content. I can see the device even going alot further to radically change the way the string vibrates by having it driven by a synthesised signal, but thats a long way off yet. The first step is to create an affordable and acceptable device that doesn't radically alter the existing instrument but enhances it. I am approaching it from a slightly different angle from previous designs. I am using tiny Rare Earth Magnets, very thin coils, and magnetic focusing strategies to minimize interferance and maximize power and control. I am seeking to address a number of problems that other designers have sought to solve through electronics with specific coil design solutions. So to answer your question, a sustainer often replaces, and can even substitute for a pickup in the neck position. It's purpose is to actually drive the string, vibrating it by electromagnetic means. It can be thought of as a pickup in reverse! thanks for your interest cheers psw