psw

Ansil's Sustainer is really misunderstood. You know how they sometimes call a compressor a sustainer because it keeps the volume up till the note dies away? It's a bit like that but using feedback, at least from my experiments. It doesn't have the means to drive the string per se but drives the pickups. It picks up the signal of itself, just like a pickup can pick up a radio or even a voice. It's an interesting but fickle effect (hard to tame) that I don't think is what your after at all!

Brooks was the engineer on that (I believe), and other U2 albums and works extensively with Peter Gabriel and world artists at his studio, hence the connection. It does sound like an ebow though as it appears to be all single notes.

A magnetic sustainer is technically able to sustain chords but with all systems to date, one note will win out over the other in short order. The main advantage is that you don't have to alter your technique as you do when holding an ebow.

The guitar is definitely a keeper...stick it in GOTM...pete

Sorry Paul...it was 4am when I posted that...I should get more sleep!

Let me make it up to you by providing you a link:

Sustainiac Sustainer Web Site

Fernandes originally used the sustainer but the two are now separate and have developed further in slightly different ways. Floyd Rose also dabbled in it as did Kramer but they are long since gone. The originator was Micheal Brooks who put his together because he couldn't get an ebow for a project in time and it's on this that Sustainiac used as a stepping off point. Brooks' Infinite Guitar is most famously played by U2's The Edge on the studio version of "I still haven't found what I'm looking for".

Sorry to hijack...shameless self promotion!...great guitar, is that metal flake?

psw

This photo of the test sustainer strat came up when I had the roll developed.

The green knobed box is a compressor/limiter with an inbuilt LM386 driver amp. The black box nex to it is the original test amp.

The test driver is taped below the B string between the neck and middle pickups.

The project is on hold while I work on a few other projects and work out how to proceed. This guitar is presently the test bed for a new type of tremolo system.

I'm constantly amazed at the number of people interested in getting hold of some sort of sustainer device. I can only assume there is some collective, creative drive to have an instrument with this capabilities. Perhaps thats how the violin developed it's bow

peace

Nice One PM

I hope you've discovered my "Sustainer Thread" in the electronics section. I'd love to get your thoughts on it if you have the patience to wade through all 23-4 pages of it...I'm detirmined to get the thing going. I'm pretty sure that they come in white (Steve Vai has one) but you might get more support from Sustainiac, I don't know.

The model C is attached to the guitar and physically vibrates it from the neck. I have some ideas to do something similar from within the body. Apparently it's quite a different experience with the guitar feeling alive in your hands! I don't like the extra attachments and wires that's all.

psw

I haven't even been over to Aron's SB forum...perhaps I should!

I was thinking of something simpler but along The Doctor's ideas. I don't think I'd split pickups and stuff, i just want a really wide, big, all enveloping sound!

There's a great guitarist in the novo surf band, The Merman (I've got a thing for progressive surf music like them and Slacktone), where he sends each pickup of his strat to 3 separate effect and amp chains (through three guitar leads!) and combines and pans between them to fantastic effect.

I was thinking more along the lines of a stereo spread with a little delay between sides and true stereo effects. Perhaps putting a piezo through one side and the electric to the other on occasion, although simutaneous distortion and clean through separate amps is a neat sound.

I'm thinking now of making a very compact two channel PA out of the Amp. Perhaps a subwoofer in the middle (housing the amp like a combo) and some satelite treble speakers to either side. One of the problems with conventional guitar amp set ups is that the sound comes from a single point and needs to be excessively loud to reach others in a band (who are usually to the side), not to mention the audience, especially if you cant afford or don't use or need a PA. I don't want the thing to be so big as to need a truck to move it!

I could run preamps or digital effects/simulators into this to achieve the type of effect I'm after. Anyone have any speaker ideas?

Thankx VanKirk.

Those Gigliotti Guitars look interesting. I wonder what aspects of the construction he's pending for a patent. It would be a shame if the concept of metal topped wooden guitars was patentable. I guess it's to do with his specific construction technique. Can you get access to the pending patents on the USPTO?

I was just checking out the Industrial guitars ... great stuff ... more like I was thinking of making but I wouldn't want all those rivets. I wonder if anyone has any ideas for attaching the top other than this idea ... some kind of super / super glue?

I believe fender have just come out with a copper strat....I saw it somewhere just the other day!

Any tips on glueing aluminium...I think the natural anodising, even when I sand it just before gluing, seems to effect strength even with epoxy...?

Beautiful work...looks expensive...I don't know how you keep it so shiny, maybe it's the grade of alluminium your using but the stuff I've got goes a dull grey pretty quick.

Can you explain a little about the grade of aluminium you use for the best sound. Different grades have a different hardness, (am I right?) and are more brittle and harder to work I gather.

I'm using 6061 t6 aluminum

The last guitar started out as a 25lb. (11kg) chunk and 20-1/2 lbs ended up on the floor. About $100 for a that piece delivered in Alaska. 1" (25mm) 6061 T6. It's probably the most common grade. It stays shinier than 7075 or 2024. Tonally you need the t6 hardness which 2024 & 7075 come in but pure aluminum like they use in castings and the 5000 series which is meant for welding don't ring like the harder alloys.

Repeating your words here so you don't have to say 'em again.

The stuff I get in extruded sections and sheets are just common hardware store stock. Stiff but pretty soft to carve and bend. Should I be looking for a different source. I have no idea what I'm working with, is there anyway of telling by looking at it. Where would you be going for more precise materials?

I'm working on some new bridge designs made of extruded Aluminium (aluminum if you must!) with stainless steel at the friction points.

There seems to be another factor to consider - stiffness. If designed slightly differently you can get quirte a bit of stiffness and strenghth with aluminium without the weight.

Aluminium is clearly a soft material but has interesting acoustic properties. I wouldn't think it would be a "tone sink" but rather a light and responsive material.

It's easier to work too!

What do you guys think

psw

Thanks MC...I might give it a go sometime. For the moment on the bridges and pickup parts I'm making at the moment, I'll stick to the files, saw grinder and dremel.

I'm just thinking ahead that once the prototypes work out I'll need to duplicate them and this may be the ticket.

For a guitar top, perhaps something like 3mm sheet, hammered into a rough curve then take the belt sander to it. I'd like somethin with some curves to it like a Strat.

Great as it looks, and with Floyd's (no doubt) whole world of springs, well more than I can access , the problem is one of leverage.

The Strat' and hence Floyds and others utilize the block as a, relatively, huge lever and those fender springs are tough. That is the amazing beauty of the original design and, great as Mr Rose's contributions, they are all based on Leo's elegant foundation.

The design here seems to use little leverage and a lot of smaller springs to fit within the limitations of the design brief (i.e. no routing). I don't think you would really get a Floyd type feel at all with this arrangement and problems of returning to pitch would be multiplied by the small movement compared to the large movement in a levered arrangement. (errr if you see what I mean...I could try and explain it better if you like)

Perhaps he will come up with something, but I'd be looking at a different spring style if I were him...clearly I'm not, however!

psw

Floyd give any reasoning, Litch?

Thanks guys for your replys

Especially thanks to Kevan...I'm trying to learn the meaning of circumspection...

Now, the problem with Floyd's design for the Les Paul, as I see it, is that he's was trying to recreate the wonderfull piece of inginuity in a different form and I really didn't think that was going to fly. It's all in the springs, don't you know!

The stud mounted bridge is quite different from the flat mount, back sprung syncronised Fender style (which is all the floyd really is - just hotted up!). And, it creates a different sound by the way its attached and transfers sound.

That's interesting that he abandonded it...he must have a high degree of perfectionism and integrety. Lesser guys would have unleashed it on the public and it would have taken years before it was acknowledged as a dog! My esteem is rising for Floyd...good on ya mate

Let you know how mine goes

psw

What a fantasticly quirky sense of humour and eye for design that guy has. I wonder how those GirlBrand guitars sound! Thanks for that, I really enjoyed looking at that...the toggle labels are something else (want=need and reality=illusion) terrific! I always thought Gibson's rhythm=treble label pointless, meaningless and misleading, so why not play it up!

MC...another great reply as always! I thought it would work. Perhaps if I were to sandwhich the plate between two sacrificial ply or MDF pieces screwed down around the edges to a bench and routed through the top one and the aluminium into the bottom, this would provide more safety. Would you use a larger or smaller bit...do you want speed or to run the router a little slower?

Im making some pretty small parts here for bridges and such at the moment...I'm all hacksaws and files ;-)

I haven't given up on this idea...in fact I've pulled a few late nighters and its coming along quite nicely. It works on a principle I've not seen before and is truly floating, although the range and action (stiffness) is yet to be seen.

Still no routing required and it's reversable, although my Les Paul, which was modified during the brass era of the 70-80's (what were we thinking) has a different bridge mounted on studs similar to the tailpiece, so that's what I'm working with. It's actually been an advantage. The whole thing is no larger than the combined bridge/tailpiece and has some unusual features not found on other trems so stay tuned....it might take a while.

It certainly looks more Gibson though it tilts the saddles like a floyd or strat. It's certainly an improvement over a bigsby or anything Gibson has offered. Sticking a floyd on an LP, or even a Khaler seems to look just that....stuck on. I think mine is looking better already...it looks like it belongs at least!

By the way, the only trem that I know of that just slotted onto an LP with no modification was the now gone, Washburn Wonderbar. It looked a lot like the Khaler but had a different type of spring system (torsion) so required no route. Could fit to a strat too! Shame it's not around.

we'll I'll just go back to it then

psw

They say it's your birthday.... ...so happy to you....

stay young!

pete

That's a lot of hand work!

For a different effect I wonder if you could make some kind of masking template and run a SS brush with a dremel over it?

Just thinking, I'm getting some nice finishes on aluminium I'm working with, polishing and "satining" other parts like this.

MC that's another great reply. I'll have to study how these guys do it.

So you think I need to make the top and bottom separate and screw together...hmmm...ok, got me thinking...perhaps an alloy sandwich. I was thinking of mounting the pickups etc from behind anyway.

Here's a question you may be able to answer. But first, WARNING this is hypothetical and potentially very dangerous so don't anyone test it for me. I'm serious!

Could you use a home wood router to shape thin alloy sheet or are you looking at taking you eyes ears and limbs off from flying shrapnel? When I say thin, I mean 1.5-3mm and I'm thinking small hardware component shapes (doing a bit of prototyping on bridges, etc) or in this context, around the edge of the body with say an edge trimmer?

I'm doing a little too much filing and grinding. Perhaps there's some special bits. Maybe a cut down round file with a guide. Now folks, I've escaped some flying projectiles from power tools before so really heed the warning above. MC and others probably/definitly have more experience with the material than me an most others.

I'll have to check those sites a bit later...I've seen the spruce hill one. I like some of the surface designs they use. Are they carved out or say pressed and welded do you think?

Thank's for the great thread, you've really got me enthused!

psw

We've been unfortunately out of touch lately (family commitments on my side and general slackness!)...he lives not that far from me too. We've known eachother for some twenty five or more years! We have shared in some hairbrained adventures together. I was just thinking I'd get back with him for a project like the sustainer. Like me he thinks to the extreme though...check out the controls and range of his effects...so together we may create an unweildy monster!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not sure if that's a good thing...hmmmm....memories....

back to the laboratory miss igor, we'll call you when we need you...now pete, where did you put that sinister sauce...errrr, *&%burp%#, is that what was in the coke bottle, I thought it was some new wacko flavor, paul....oh, here it is, in the other coke. Oh that stuff, that's their new pepsi flavoured coke...hmmm, yeah paul, they even got the grease and KFC after taste down...no,no,no don't finish it, that is the sinister sauce, this ones solder flux, no it's ok, it's the new satay coke, works ok though...1001 uses coke....collective "*&^burp*&^"....flatter...was that you paul?

It's a time consuming process, more of a lifestyle really ... we shared a house for a while you know...I love this guy...hi paul if your out there, miss you!

pete

Great reply

I was thinking of using a really resonant soft wood like cedar for the body with an alloy sheet top and a clear resin over the whole thing. Perhaps a high polish and brushed design on it. I'm a little concerned that temperature variations will make the whole thing crackle and pop! An all alloy body like yours would solve the problem.

In addition to my last comments...the pole pieces of the pickup also induce eddy currents, so...what the heck. I think it's best to ignore these things when the results look and sound sooo cool!

psw

PS I'm working on a pickup that would look sooo good on this type of guitar. I'll send you a pic when I'm done!

well I'm flattered that your flattered that I'm flattered...What a great and unlikely word flllaattterrred...I guess we're all flattered...I went out last night and got completely flattered....woke up this morning, felt a little flattered....whew-eee did you flatter?

Sarcasam no! Actually, I know a guy down here who actually makes something like this and some other really weird stuff.

Spacebeam

As a kid I always thought a joystick on the guitar would make a neat kind of tone control or fader between two pickups. Proffessor Perry from Frostwave (above) has a joystick control for his analog synth to midi converter...not sure what it does though!

Sounds a little expensive Thrashencrush. Possibly fragile and a fire risk. Still, I know where your coming from. You could actually divide the guitars output frequencies and send the lows highs, mids and lows to different preamps.

Simple, reliable and cheap is probably the go for me.

p

I'm fascinated by this eddy current question. I've spent a while studying pickups, magnetics and such in my own kind of way. There's a lot of voodoo out there!

I figure, if they can put pickups into lipstick tubes, or mount a humbucker in a nickel coated can on a steel base, are eddy currents really that bad? What I'd be looking for in a pickup is character. Eddy current's do make a serious impact on efficiency and tone but could it not be seen to be of benefit to character if these effects were taken into account during the design phase and with some experimentation. After all, inconsistant winding patterns and slightly unequal humbucking coils have an impact. Both are widely acknowledged to be crucial to the best vintage and hand wound pickups.

Any taker's on this. Metal carver ...did you notice any ill effects to the pickups tone on these alloy guitars?

One other thing. Is there a problem with temperature changes and tuning stability. Stage lights could heat it up. They say that that was a problem with the old Travis Bean and Kramer al necks.

Oh yes and...how do you protect the finish from oxidization. Are they lacquered to preserve the shine? Do temperature changes effect the coating...what do you use?

psw

Well yes...

how about an infared beam that you reflect off your guitar or something to control effects....

Thanks paul that's great...I'll check them later.

Meanwhile, I checked your Web Site diyguitarist.com and it's very impressive. I'll take the time to recommend it here and I'm flattered for your input and interest

cheers

psw

Actually, I love my old Ibanez AD100 BBD delay. It gives the ambience that I like in a natural kind of way. Digital's great also for a tiny delay though, to give a stereo effect. I used to use chorus in the eighties (like everyone else) all the time. Then I discovered that short delays and a bit of finger vibrato gives a much better, subtle and controllable effect!

I once had a set up with a Roland GA60 amp running it's 12" chrome dome a 15" paper cone extension box being run through a trashed tube School PA amp. The signal split through an EH Clone Theory (great box!) with the effect side running to the Roland.

This gave a solid bass and a jangly high end and the sound was massive!

That kind of thing is what I'm looking for with this project. The two channels could also be used for two guitars (100w each) or for a guitar / vocal setup. The idea is that it should be able to be relatively clean.

It would be neat to be able to mount say a pair of 12"'s on mic stands and have a kind of monitor from the amp proper with say a pair of inbuilt 8"'s.

Still thinking over the possibilities...hmmm

psw

can you still buy BBD delay chips...know of any circuits?