wander

I acquired an old Kay archtop a while back with the intent of refinishing it, but found the amount of work needed to be WAY over my head. The binding is shot, the finish is cracked, sometime in the last 50 years the neck joint has been "repaired." Long story short i have a Floating bridge setup that is good shape, but that is about it. Anybody interested in purchase/trade? Or can somebody link me up to a not craigslist/ebay site that does this sort of thing?

i was at my paint store yesterday looking at what they had and noticed Minwax has a water based brush on line as well, currently researching how comparable it is to other more traditional lacquers and i sprayed up some sample boards over the weekend. should be an interesting couple of weeks.

i've used acetone and 0000 steel wool to get some tough 100 year old shellac off before, not the prettiest way to do it, but it worked and only a minimum of sanding afterwards. get some good gloves though

Let's swing this discussion another way for a moment, i saw another post asking about rattle can polyurethane...how durable is that for guitars? Done a ton of wainscotting, doors and the like, but could that do the job and still look good?

That stuff i can brush on and make look like glass, i've done it before, but i'd been led to believe it was NOT for instuments from various tutorials i've encountered else i'd have used that in the first place. Thoughts?

I used that Rustoleum Enamel a few years ago on a guitar. It NEVER cured. Sat there up until a few weeks ago when I finally stripped it off. It stayed soft the whole time. Years! So I suppose if the nitro actually stuck to the enamel it would still be soft. I'd like to know if someone gets this to actually work though.... theres all kinds of tasty Rustoleum Enamel colors!

What sort of Rustoleum? They have quite a few lines. I bought the Industrial/ Hard Hat line. According to the Rustoleum Tech Support it is able to be coated with any lacquer within a few days, provided it doesn't have too hot of a base to it. I intend to let mine sit for a few weeks before i coat it with a water based lacquer, and so long as you don't try and use the clear coating (7701 or the like) for a final finish you should be okay. We'll see in a few weeks...hopefully all turns out well.

I can't answer your question. I'd suggest going over to Target Coatings website and asking it on the forum there. Jeff Weiss from Target is great to deal with and will be able to tell you the hows and whys.( or why nots)

And if you're gonna do tests, you shouldn't have results by midweek. You should test the full finish schedule, includeing all the coats and a full cure time....

I'll be able to tell whether brush on is any sort of viable (for me) by then. really i should be able to tell that before i finish a side. if i can't get it to flow out right and will need to spend the next few months sanding and recoating it is not what i'm looking for. i know this is NOT a quick process, and i'm not trying to do a slapdash job, but three young kids and a full time job demand most of my time. I'm gonna eat the gas money and take a drive down to my buddy with a sprayer and thirty years experience using it. gonna check out the Target site sounds informative.

all this discussion has gotten me to a few conclusions. First and foremost, shell out for a decent sprayer, second i want to try a brush on finish on a guitar that isn't so valuable (to me)(i've got an old beater that could use some new paint/lacquer...i'm thinking blinding yellow...) and lastly this forum is a wealth of experience. thanks to all of you for the help.

(superfluous parenthetical)

RDub-

Can i use water or off the shelf retarder from, say, Sherwin-Williams? If it is water based what would be the difference between retarder and just water? I realize retarder is specifically made to do this, BUT for the sake of information why use that over water? Any links for this info?

Going to do test runs this weekend for brush on, also going to pick up a small quantity of H2o based poly to see how the two compare. ideally i'll have picks posted by mid-week.

<slaps head> ...I forgot it's waterbased, cleanup's a breeze!

But I might check into it if I were you, I'm almost certain waterbased lac is a 2-part reactive curing type of finish.

I'm guessing there is a 'window' of re-application time, maybe a few hours?, but not like a true film finish like regular lacquer where there is NO window, it ALWAYS melts back into itself, there is no time period.

Worth checking into.

Clear Gloss Topcoat is a crystal-clear acrylic waterbase lacquer that has 100% burn-in between coats, without a time limit. That makes it repairable, much like nitrocellulose lacquer. It is a thermoplastic resin and will shrink and move around with the heat of buffing. 25-30% of the final finish thickness should be lacquer topcoats. It sands and buffs well to a high gloss, with good hardness and durability. Full chemical cure occurs in 150 hours.

Waterbase Retarder or WATER can be added to reduce viscosity. When hot/dry conditions cause the finish to dry too fast, thin with 5%-15% Waterbase Retarder.

http://www.stewmac.com item number 5570

also didn't say anything about NEEDING any other product for curing either on the company website or the label.

Witness lines are lines where one coat meets another coat of any finish that doesn't melt back into itself when you apply a fresh coat over top of an existing coat.

I hardly ever brush on finishes, I can't remember what kind of brush I used to use to be honest, but I remember it needs to be a quality silky-smooth haired brush, since you're relying on it holding a lot of product, and a cheap stiff bristled brush will take you backwards with more lines in the lac that it will have to melt out.

As well, you need to get a setup where you punch a hole in a lid and insert the brush into the lac for airtight keeping over a few weeks, or you'll use up a ton of thinner trying to clean it every time, ...like the antiquing people do for antiquing pictures.

It does melt in to itself, or so the label says, hopefully will mesh well with color coat

I already have a scrap chunk ready, just waiting for good weather to paint as my garage is unheated

i've got nice fine brushes, i've spent too much time on this project to cheap out with some cheapo box store brush

good idea on the top for the brush, have done this before with my oil paint and poly projects, but this stuff is water based so as long as i have an airtight seal on the lid it's all good since i can wash with warm water.

it's about understanding the science and physics of the materials you want to use, how and why they interact with each other like they do, and what it takes to make it happen the way you want.

Easy.

and that is why i have to use water based lacquer. i used an acrylic rattle can (see rustoleum post) to finish the guitar, i spoke with the rustoleum people and the stringed instrument lacquer i intended to use is NOT an option. as i have this guitar looking beautiful (pics posted when done) i needed a product that wouldn't melt the finish (which traditional MEK based lacquer would have). Water based was my ONLY option. Kinda leaped before i looked, but it's turning out good nonetheless

newbie question- witness lines?

specific question- what style brush were either of you using 2 1/2" fine latex sash brush seems right to me

With all that said..........

Lacquer is a Completely Different Animal when it comes to brushing it on, the normal rules really don't apply.

One, Cutting it 50% with thinner w/o checking with the manufacturer's recommended applications is a mistake you wouldn't catch me doing. Some things you can do that to, but to use it as a rule across the board is a big mistake, it doesn't apply to everything.

Two, when you brush on lacquer, you NEVER go back and forth with your strokes, you stroke it across ONCE and leave it and move on to the next stroke.

Three, you want your brush LADEN with lacquer, as much as it'll hold.

The trick basically is to just DRAG a brush chock full of lacquer across the piece and let it flow out completely on it's own, therefore the 'do not go back over it' rule is in effect.

You'll ruin it INSTANTLY if you drag your brush back through a previous stroke.

...You'll be tempted, ...your brain will tell you it's OK...but don't do it.

Four, with Regular Brushing Lacquer, they add more RETARDER into it so it doesn't dry on you instantly and to give it the necessary flow-out ability, but if you add too much retarder, your finish will NEVER dry.

Remember, RETARDER, not THINNER.

Five, I wouldn't even recommend doing it, it rarely comes out worthwhile.

Six, I don't even think waterbased lacquer has an option (Retarder)to brush on, so your way out on a limb if you try it (see #5).

on the can it recommends cutting 20% for brush on jobs. brushing is not my first choice either, but i wanted to see what kind of results the folks here have had after seeing that printed on the label as brush on would save me time and money if it is possible to do.

so what would you recommend as the best way to mount it for brushing? i was thinking to hang it that way i can get 360 degree access to catch runners, with it thinned so much i should have a good amount of working time so i'll be able to brush them out. i've done a lot of vertical poly on wainscotting, cabinets, and doors. That bass is fantastic btw

I'm looking to finally wrap up my project and was wondering if anybody has brushed on the Stewmac Colortone Water based Lacquer. I'm an experienced painter and have worked with a wide variety of poly's, oil, and water based paint with fantastic runner free smooth finishes. I'm looking for any pointers or experiences from anybody who has brushed this stuff on. I know spraying is optimal, but for the sake of this post let's assume it's not an option. Thanks!

I actually just called Rustoleum. The Behlen Stringed Instrument Lacquer B611-1406 has too much MEK and will eat thr rustoleum finish away. As will any other MEK based finish. HOWEVER the Behlen water based will work with the Rustoleum Hard Hat/ Industrial line of enamels. Thanks for the help and i'll post pics when it's done. This site is the best resource i've encountered.

I am ready to finish coat a custom guitar i put together. This is the first I have attempted any actual finish work on a guitar, but have spent years doing cabinetry and such. I used a Rustoleum Gloss Black Enamel Spray Paint as my base colour, but want to put a clear lacquer over it to toughen and protect the finish. I am getting a quart of nitro cellulose lacquer from stewmac and am having a buddy spray it for me. My concern now is that the lacquer will interact with the enamel. Does anybody have any input on this? I know i didn't use the best method and such and i intend to be a little more orthodox next time, but for now any input will be appreciatted as cold weather is prohibiting me from starting over and i would really like to get this project together before the snow flies.