Ben

So to clarify;

In a single sentence, am I right that your theory is that this 'sweet spot' at the 24th fret is because there is an unusually high concentration at that point of nodes and antinodes of the fundamental frequencies of all the frets?

edit: also, wxMaxima lets you plot things easily. Its pretty simple to learn and free. (also here's the link for platforms other than windows)

Putting theories aside, I don't know how you can't hear the difference between a pickup on the node compared to a 24 fretter (or an SG) to me it's not subjective. It doesn't matter what type of wood you use, type of strings, pickups, humbuckers or single coils. When a pickup is on the second octave node there is a distinctive sound (which you get all over the fretboard) And if you move it away from that point you get a similar sound but its not really "there"

The subjectivity is in what exactly is "there" though.

To find the reasons why you get this sound you simply have to look into vibrations & soudwaves and its only High-School level physics. After I did a few simple calculations it was like a light switched on and I can 'see' whats happening in my mind, but where I fall down is my ability to put it into words. I suppose I'm assuming other guitar makers would take the same interest in the physics of sound as I did

You are right that the physics is fundamentally highschool-level physics (although when you get to interference of multiple waves it makes life a lot easier if you use complex numbers, which here in the UK are A-level), the issue is the complexity of the system.

For example; stars have forces between them due to gravity. Simple highschool physics, right? Yet to model a galaxy full of these stars, you need some of the worlds most powerful supercomputers! The problem is the sheer amount that's going on.

Something to remember (I tried to say earlier) when I was first told about the neck pickup "sweet spot" I was also sceptical (because once you play fretted notes the node moves) But think about this, as you play further up the fretboard that 'creamy' sound gets better till the 12th fret then starts to fade, would you agree? So it actually helps the fretted notes more than the open string

What I'm saying in a nutshell is; Vibrations behind the fret re-inforce the vibrations on the pickup side, and the finger pressing on the string is not enough to stop those vibrations passing through (whereas a nut or bridge would stop them to a greater extent) The second octave node is a point where these vibrations are best picked up because its where most nodes/antinodes collide (There are three "octave nodes" in this area but the 2nd octave node captures the longer, stronger wavelengths)

I hope I can get around to drawing some graphs because illustrations speak a thousand words

What are you going to draw a graph of? You would need to quantify the 'creamy' sound you describe if you are going to plot anything, and I don't see how that's possible.

How do you intend to prove that this effect is due to the reasons you describe and not some other factor?

By the way here's another little experiment I did, can you see what I was trying to do?

You were trying to calculate something approximately-but-not-quite the scale length from something approximately-but-not-quite the distance from the nut to this magical node ?

Or perhaps working what scale length your guitar would need to have its node directly over one of the neck pickup coils?

Ultimately, I think Prostheta summed it up nicely:

I think that it's admirable to consider this from a physics perspective, although the actuality is far too complex to model or condense unless you cut out these factors, thereby widening the gap between the real and the modelled.

Sounds like you're saying "Lets put this in the too-hard basket" LOL

Essentially, yes. While the physics of each little component is graspable, overall there's just so much to take into account that you aren't going to easily get to any solid conclusions.

I've been trying to find answers from physics, however I don't think you have to go to such great lengths to draw conclusions. Here's a little experiment I did that anyone can try (Some people may try this and not notice any difference in tone but I've done it several times over the past few days and I am convinced)

My Strat Copy has the neck pickup (Humbucker) roughly on the 2nd octave to the second fret and the inner coil is at the 2nd octave to the fifth fret. I put a cappo really tightly and very close to the second fret (to simulate a nut) and I did it also on the fifth fret (with the coils split)

In both cases I got that distinctive neck pickup sound and it demonstrates even the pickup closer to the bridge will achieve it as long as it's at ¼ the distance of the bridge to "nut" length

It also convinces me (when playing a fretted note) that vibrations behind the fret affect vibrations sensed by the pickup. When the cappo was on, I believe the vibrations re-inforced and when it was off, they were destructive

The problem with your method is that it is very subjective, and your conclusions as to the causes of the perceived change in sound are pretty much just conjecture.

How do you know, for example, that this change in sound wasn't due to the mass of the capo changing the resonant frequency of the neck?

Here's something I learnt about tuning car stereos for SQ that I think is relevant. My head unit reproduces frequencies way above human hearing but they have an effect on the sounds you CAN hear. Also when tuning the EQ, sometimes it's possible to have a flat spot in your midrange which can be fixed by adjustments from a higher frequency (because they were cancelling the others out)

Apparently some people dislike mp3s for the same reason; they remove the frequencies higher than your ear can immediately detect.

My opinion is that you guys are probably wasting your time approaching this from a theoretical perspective. I expect there's waaaay too much going on for you to realistically model mathematically without using some kind of complex computer simulation. For example: All this node/ anti-node stuff only applies to standing waves. Traveling waves are also involved... my guess would be that they are largely behind the 'attack', as I can only imagine picking a string creating traveling waves, that will then decay into standing ones. Interference between standing waves, traveling waves, and multiple harmonics of each makes the situation a lot more complicated.

If anybody was ever going seriously try to figure this out, then I propose approaching it empirically:

1. Take a les paul, and a pickup with the flattest possible frequency response (to be really rigorous, work out its response to different frequencies and de-convolute with the data later)

2. Figure out a way to make the position of the pickup variable. Ideally while still attached to the body. (This would be easier if you were going to deconvolute the frequency response of the pickup with your data later, as then the pickup could be made smaller (there would in principle be no need for it to even resemble standard guitar pickup, as it's effect on the sound would be being removed from the data)

3. Connect the pickup to a computer to record the sound. (I don't know how good the analogue-to-digital converters in sound cards are, so if they suck then find a good one)

4. Play every fret on every string, and record.

5. Repeat 4 for a variety of pickup positions (and ideally for various guitars!)

6. Analyse the data. Fourier transform it, fit functions to the data and so on.

7. You now have functions describing frequency response vs pickup position and vs fret for a given pickup position for a given string, and what ever other relations you want between those variables.

This scheme should be able describe the effect of pickup position only. The overall sound of the guitar would be influenced by many other things also... (pickups, strings etc) .. and if you wanted insight into the overall effect you would need to investigate those too.

Basically I think you are wasting your time with over-simplified pictures of something very complex.

It's like all these alternative medicines that will chose one aspect of the very complicated system that is the human body, (eg enzymes, or free radicals or "friendly bacteria"), and then decide that everything revolves around them... when reality, while they may indeed be a very important part of the system, they are just a small part of a very large system.

While in principle what you are saying may indeed be correct, I doubt you will ever be looking at enough of the full picture to get anything useful from this approach.

Also, hello again everyone! (I haven't posted here in ages because I've been very busy trying to get a decent degree)... only one exam left now .

http://www.jimfogarty.co.uk/Higgs%20opening%20p450.jpg

This has to be probably the nerdiest guitar I've ever seen!

Your painting skills are awesome.

We can agree on one thing...Hefield's voice USED to be great...I love the old albums...especially Master and Justice...

Absolutely no dispute on that

You lost me at '$20 a pick'

I'd have to try it to believe it.

I've tried lots of picks, but the one that I seem to keep coming back to is some dirt cheap 1.2mm plastic one that came from ebay for something like £3 for a bag of 50. go figure.

Guess I'll have to wait for the dollar to weaken a little more before I try one of those.

it just seemed odd to me that you could actually like Mustaine's vocals

You are telling me you prefer Hetfield's "new" voice?You must be drunk.

I dunno... In terms of the actualy quality of the vocals I dont think there's much in it, however Hetfield's new voice is perhaps worse to listen to because its so disappointing when compared to his old voice.

I expect Mustaine to sound like a nasal, whining 11 year old eunuch doing his best to sound angry and sinister but I expect better from Hetfield, and it just sounds wrong.

But so you know,I don't like all of Megadeth's album...I think the strong ones are,in order Killing is my business,Peace Sells,cryptic writings,and The System has Failed..

The rest are weak,with only a handful of good songs(Like Holy Wars) between them...

Ok. I only own 'Peace sells' and 'Rust in Peace'. I'm no megadeth expert by any means, my opinions just based on what I've heard.

Holy wars is the only song I can listen to without the vocals making me cringe at least slightly

Some great riffs though.

Actually,a sarcastic voice such as Mustaine's fits his style of political metal quite well...If you don't get that,then I am sorry for you..

It's not about singing quality,dude...I thought everyone knew that...it's about how well the vocals apply to the music you are making...look at hendrix...look at Motorhead...ac/dc...I think I make my point..

I dont particularly like ac/dc's vocalist...

Feel sorry for me then . Megadeth have some great guitar riffs and solos, and his voice is tolerable on many songs, but there's some I can barely listen to because I tire of his vocals so quickly.

See..you thought you had me nailed...but you got NOTHING!

I'm not trying to 'nail' you, it just seemed odd to me that you could actually like Mustaine's vocals

(I quite liked the black album. Bite me.)

Then you suck...so bite my pillow,bi**h..

(that was a joke...no offense meant..I should not have to say that,but I will anyway)

Don't worry

I'm not easily offended and I've read enough of your posts here to know that you were joking...

Its probably because it was the first metallica album I heard, so it didnt seem a dissapointment compared to their earlier stuff. I do agree that everything pre-black album is superior though.

I can't sing at all...I mean I sound really,really bad...

Does that mean I have to like Jame's screeching,because he sounds slightly better than me?

Wes- explain this to me:

-you heavily criticise James Hetfield's singing (which I agree has seriously degraded)

-I'm pretty sure I've read a few times that you like megadeth, but I have not once heard you criticise Dave Mustaine's vocals...

Perhaps years of playing loud metal have damaged your high frequency hearing so much that Mustaine's horrible squealy voice becomes tolerable

My opinion of the new album is that its not in anyway terrible, but nor is it anything remarkable in any way. Its just derivative and not innovative.... it sounds almost like someone trying to write something in the style of late 80s Metallica, and getting it pretty close but not quite nailing it.

Still... its probably better than anything else they have released since the black album. (I quite liked the black album. Bite me.)

Looking great wez!

Stone-effect paint

Wow, That guitar is spectacular!

Great work.

It does actually send a report as if it were a PM, but you dont actually have to go to the effort of finding the mod's profile and pm-ing them; just click the report button thats at the bottom left of the post you want to report.

I think it looks damn good! congrats.

I dont know what advice to give, because you seem to have done a lot of the work already... are you using a premade neck or making/ have made your own?

i need opinions or even new ideas where to place the volume and tone pots.

even if just say 1, 2 or 3 it would be great...

I like 2.

i just used umm... regular krylon... i think its interior/extorior or something but for my clear i dont really want to use krylon because enamel will take a long time to dry hard enough for me to wetsand, so does anyone know of something that i can use thats not urethane ,because i dont think that the krylon and urethane will get along well, and isnt to expensive

Acrylic? I don't know enough to guarentee that krylon and acrylic are compatable, so I'm just suggesting acrylic as something to look into, rather than a definite working solution.

And that paintjob looks awesome!

Check this out...

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff185/r...08/P1190757.jpg

That guy's weird beard thing is at least as ugly as the guitar

Buy "Make your own electric guitar" by Melvin Hiscock. It basically has everything you need to know in one book.

Other than that, just search the forum and read as much as you can before you start.

Good luck!

Have you considered a Line6 Variax?

This perhaps wasn't the best use of my time when I have an exam tomorrow... (but boredom drove me to it )

I like it, but I agree that it might look better if for future models you shifted the centre line slightly, like this:

But it looks great regardless! I love the colour.

I cant stand thin strings on 24.75 scale guitars... they just feel floppy. My favourite and current string configuration is 60 - 52 - 34 - 23 - 15 - 11.5 , which I really like, but its a pain to get hold of strings of these gauges, and I had to order them all individually. The thinnest strings I can tolerate are those skinny top heavy bottom ones, which are a 10 to 52 set if I remember correctly, and while theyre pretty good for solo's and the like, theyre still a little too sloppy for rhythm playing in my opinion.

I recently bought the same bridge from guitarfetish in black, and it seems pretty good to me. I should point out though that my guitar has a tremsetter installed, and I haven't tried it without the tremsetter, but for my purposes it has been great. It returns to the exact same pitch after dives, and the fastloader aspect is definitely a lot less of a pain in the ass than the crappy double locking trem it replaced.

Thats my experience with it, but as I pointed out I do have a tremsetter installed, so how much of the pitch-stability is due to the quality of the bridge, and how much is down to the tremsetter, I do not know.

Obviously I also do not yet know how it will hold up over time.

Thought I'd share just incase thats at least slightly useful.