boomerlu

About guitars and finishes, or people? :-D

It's good to hear - I hope you can use this mass of info to do your guitars justice!

About all three

Here's the reason all of this is so confusing - the tone of an instrument is essentially a mathematical problem that can't be solved analytically. The tone of a piece of wood all by itself is a problem that can't be solved analytically. When you add multiple pieces of wood (body, neck fretboard), other materials like plastics etc....you get something that's even more of a mess. Finally you add the electrical component which is also imperfect.

The biggest factor in the sound of the guitar is of course the electronics. This is the signal that's going directly in the amp, the zeroth order. Next are the main mechanical components, body, neck, bridge etc, first order effects. These indirectly affect the sound (by how they feedback with the string). Now the effect of the finish is essentially a second or third order effect (as in unimportant if the finish is a small fraction of the mass/thickness of the guitar). This is because the main change is in the acoustic sound of the instrument. The acoustic sound then has to travel through air affect the strings, which is a very weak feedback given the loudness of the instrument (as opposed to the direct mechanical coupling of a bridge or the electrical effect of pickups). So as long as the finish's thickness is a small fraction of the thickness of the instrument, the effect will be negligible. The degree to which it is negligible will of course depend on

the thickness.

For what it's worth, the imperfection of wood is what makes it tonally interesting. A very homogeneous material (think a piece of metal) has a very sharp

frequency response centered at its resonant frequency. What happens when you tap a piece of metal? It rings at one pitch right? In mathematics, that tap closely approximates a signal with evenly distributed frequency spectrum (that is it has the same amplitude across all frequencies), so what you hear after the tap is the "response" of the material - you are hearing its EQ curve. So the metal is strong in a very small frequency band. Wood is very much different - it is organic and chaotic. There are knots of higher and lower densities, pores, etc, that each contribute to give a much more complex frequency response. Now you know why luthiers and builders "tap" pieces of wood - it's a quick way to approximately determine the frequency response of a material whose frequency response is very hard to predict. This is also the reason different instruments of the same make/model/year/color sound different.

I have a basic idea of the painting process...

Seal

Prime

Color coats

Clear coats

with a lot of sanding in between to make sure everything is nice and flat when desirable (for sealer and primer).

Now my question is - would you do anything different for painting over a figured (flame maple/quilt maple for example) top? I'm talking about putting on a graphic, not just staining. What would you do to preserve the figure but have it colored differently in different areas?

Also, how would one remove the color from a pre-existing figured top that has been stained? How much thickness would you need to do this without totally destroying the veneer?

Thanks guys

Yike

I could have sworn I wrote in this topic, but guess not.

Anyways, something that might be of interest is to trace the contour of your hand as a starting point. Ultimate customization!

How?

Hey, it sounds interesting, but I'll echo Robert's sentiment.

A working link would be nice?

I could have sworn I wrote in this topic, but guess not.

Anyways, something that might be of interest is to trace the contour of your hand as a starting point. Ultimate customization!

Well hey, it may be expensive, but at least it's POSSIBLE now. And maybe by the time you save up enough, the price may have dropped.

Anyways, I'm going to be doing this mod in the FAR future, like a year or two from now.

GR-33 Meaning Midi synth?

Well I think you could do it. First off, many people have transplanted Variax electronics into guitars. Secondly, I think graphtech makes an interface which takes the hexaphonic pickup signal and turns it into midi. Install both and you have exactly that.

I agree the Workbench software is a great addition, the thought of being able to go to any tuning you want with a flick of a switch is unreal. Especially on songs where I do slide and then have to come back to rhythm. It would be great for that. I already called Line 6 about selling the electronics long ago, and they said they wouldn't and didn't plan to ever sell them seperately. I would love to have a guitar that had the Variax electronics in it, plus have the 13 pin for playing my GR-33 live. That would be an awesome combination.

Everything is accessible right on the guitar. And with the custom banks, you can basically have whatever you want at the flick of a 5 way switch. And that's the beauty of the Variax.

Well, besides the fact that Line6 used a ridiculous approach and modeled EVERY aspect of the instrument rather than sample it, and put out the Workbench which is even more ridiculous.

Outboard synths are a great idea if you want to be playing with like.....violins and french horns and weird synths. Not so much if you want vintage guitar tones.

1 push/pull pot so that the push pull pot is a parallel/series switch for both humbuckers?

(off the top of my head) A push-pull will work for coil splitting two humbuckers, but parallel/series requires (2) DPDT switches... or (1) 4PDT switch, which you probably won't find in a push-pull.

Hmm... I just bumped into this thread and was interested in how the Kahlers are engineered.

From what I can see, the only thing that actually pivots is the cam. What balances out the tension of the strings? Ie are there springs somewhere? Are they just below the bridge?

Along the same lines:

Anybody have a schematic for 2 humbuckers, 3 way switch, 1 volume, 1 push/pull pot so that the push pull pot is a parallel/series switch for both humbuckers? I know the theory of how to achieve this, but I can't find a schematic on the internet, and I also realize that with only 1 push/pull you might run into some problems. So, anybody more clever than I am and come up with a way to do it?

Thanks

I believe it wouldn't be very hard to design a contour that is matched to your own hand, ie put it down on paper in playing position and trace it. I'd bet that the natural shape is asymmetrical.

Now winding your pickups with different wire might actually have a noticeable difference. But that's because we're talking like 8000 turns of coil.

My question is this: is there any actual difference in the quality/options of the electronics of the 300, 600, or 700 (or whatever numbers they are!?) series? Or are you simply paying for a better guitar as you go up, just with the same electronics?

Chris

From what I've seen it seems as if the electronics are the same. Except that the cheaper one is apparently larger? I'm not certain. I'll have to ask, but it does indeed same that the processing is the same.

Update:

I actually heard back from Jeff, he's a real nice guy. Anyhow, he informed me that practically ANY piezo would work.

Man am I stoked for when I actually do this.

It's a pretty complicated system. The pickup is merely a L.R. Baggs piezo bridge that senses the vibration of each string individually and sends that to the onboard processor for the "modeling" of each guitar option. The first Variax's that came out were pretty awful for playability and the modeling sounds were mediocre. The newest ones aren't bad if you just need something to play live and you don't want to carry around a truckload of guitars.

You can certainly cannibalize a Variax for the electronics and build your own neck and body like this guy has done, but sooner or later basic guitar physics are going to limit what you can do. It becomes very difficult to play on frets above the 24th fret because the spacing becomes very small and you still have to have somewhere to put your electronics. The electronics in the cheaper Variax's take up more space than the more expensive ones.

Thanks.

Well the basic principle is pretty simple. Piezo --> processor ---> output

Now I know what hardware I would need to keep from the original guitar (ie the bridge and electronics).

And yes I realize the basic guitar physics will get in the way of what's going to be useable. I realize playability is going to suck past around the 24th fret, but you could still for example tap. And yes you do need somewhere to put the electronics, but that's the back and won't interfere with the fretboard. It's entirely possible a V won't be feasible because of space constraints, but my undertaking of this project is a ways off. Perhaps the electronics will become smaller (and cheaper!) by the time I'm ready to do it. Nonetheless I love the Variax concept but slightly dislike the implementation.

Hey guys

I was wondering if anybody has any detailed knowledge about how the Variax guitar works?

In particular:

1) How does it pick up the string sound? ie, is it a piezo, and if so where is it installed?

2) To what extent does the actual body of the guitar modify the tone?

I am interested because I am considering (in the relatively far future) building a V shaped body and retrofitting the Variax system into the body. If the Variax system is what I think it is (piezo installed independently of the bridge whose only purpose is to identify the note being played), then this opens up a ridiculous realm of possibilities.

For example one could build a fretboard with (almost) as many frets as I want since the fretboard does not in any way interfere with the pickups. One could also build a guitar disregarding the tone the wood makes, and thus base all construction decisions on structural stability and aesthetics. You could use that ridiculously sounding but beautiful looking wood.

Thanks

Yike

Perry: I actually did consider string lengthening, I simply did not mention it in my model because I knew it would unnecessarily complicate my argument.

And the reason I'm not actually going out and trying this stuff out is because I simply do not have the materials to do so.

As far as real world results vs theory:

I mean objective real world results. IE, spectrum analysis, not "Oh it sounds different!". Tension gauges and not "Oh, it feels different.", although feel is slightly less subjective than sound. The reason I brought up the importance of experiment is that there is NO WAY of knowing a priori (beforehand) the laws of our universe.

Just as an example, in physics there are like umpteen billion (exaggeration I know) theoretical models of how the world works. All of them reduce to our real world, based on what we know. Until we know more (through experiment) we can't verify or deny any of them. Theories are simply what are possible (since they are deductively valid), but not necessarily the truth.

Anyways, I'm glad we're getting a good debate.

I actually have been messing around with a 4 pole 6 way switch in order to experiment with sounds.

I'm basically finding that the coil split off my humbuckers are useless. It gives me the really percussive tone of single coils, but it's WAAY too harsh, and the output is so much lower. But then again I have Duncan Detonators (cheap version of the Invader).

Remember two facts about coil splitting:

1) A PAF type humbucker has 5000 windings whereas a normal single coil has about 8700 windings.

2) Humbuckers have a bar magnet placed underneath, whereas a single coil has magnetic pole pieces. The polarization direction and hence magnetic fields are totally different.

Now, I'm finding that the parallel positions are very nice. The tone is closer to single coil tone with similar output to humbuckers. Nice and quacky. So, I'm going to rewire my guitar...yet again...to 3 way switch with a push/pull for parallel/series.

As far as output goes: I wouldn't worry about that too much as long as you have a relatively normal output. You can always add more gain with a preamp circuit ;-)

Edit: Oh yeah, if you just go with HSH or HSS, you could have REAL single coil tones ;-)

Ahh, the link is actually just

www.skguitar.com

Rich, sorry I wasn't too clear but:

I thought good nut design would have it so it doesn't move LATERALLY, while allowing freedom of motion in the nut to bridge direction (so that the string doesn't bind).

If you are unterested in the magnetif field in pickups you should hava a look at Steven Kertins page www.skguitars.com He has FEMM simulations of magnetic field for a lot of different pickups. Those simulations really got me to understand A LOT more about WHY pickups sound like thay do.

I am very much interested, but from what I can tell the link is dead? I googled his name as well as SK Guitars, but nothing of note came up. Could you provide a working link?

Thanks

The magnetism needs to go through the core of the coil in the pickup. That is north or south running through it...not both. So, with a single coil the magnet is inside pointing towards the string through the core...or a magnet is attached below a steel core with one polarity up so that the steel becomes an extention of the magnet itself and directs it through the core.

On a humbucker, the magnet polerises one set of pole pieces in one coil north, the other coil south. There is a magnet between them, one side north and the other south so the whole together makes a kind of U shape with the magnetisim of opposite polarities being directed through each coil. This and reverse winding on one of the coils makes for the humbucking effect. Combinations of single coils can also achieve this effect if the magnet and winding is reversed (normally on the middle pickup) RWRP pickups.

Different magnet arrangements create different sensing magnetic shapes. A P90 for instance has two magnets both directing the same polarity through the steel core of a single coil. This magnetic shape and the wider coil contribute to the distinctive sound of the p90...the field produced though is the same...the same polarity through the core...

Hope that helps... pete

Yes, this helps quite a bit.

And Joe...you pretty much hit the nail I was trying to get at!

See, here's the thing...

The lowest energy (and thus preferred) configuration of a dipole is IN LINE with the magnetic field lines. The premise of the pickup is that the magnet induces a dipole on the strings, and then when the string vibrates, it induces an EMF (Faraday's law).

SO...the polarization direction of the pole pieces of a humbucker would point in the same direction as the magnet. And the polarization direction of the strings would too. On the other hand, on most single coils the polarization is from the back of the guitar to the front. These configurations both produce different induced dipoles in the string, and therefore different fields. Thus, they should produce fundamentally different sounds, even if say the humbucker were split into a single coil...

That said, the coil split on my humbucker closely approximates the sound of a single coil (not dead on of course). It's got the bite, the top end. It's just a bit uglier, but that's because (I think) the pickup was designed to be a humbucker and not two single coils.

Joe, as you said: nobody complains!

Conclusion? The hype pickup manufacturers sell us is probably just hype. None of this actually matters that much. What really matters is the resonant frequency and the height of the peak, at least to the leading orders.

2- Friction will make pulling a string more difficult, as the "dead" string length will pull over the respective saddle and nut during the pulling process.

3- after the string has been pulled the needed distance to reach the required tension. The tension is again equal across the entire length of the string (as we have agreed upon).

Well...maybe not. If the nut slot friction is high enough, you *could* have lower tension in the "dead" portion of the string (the highest-friction endmember being the locking nut...no matter how hard you bend, the dead string doesn't move). But most most nuts are probably not so bad as to do this.

I always thought it was GOOD nut design for the string not to move in the nut slot...

Does anybody know which way the magnets of pickups are polarized?

IE, bridge to nut, back of guitar face of guitar, or sideways?

Are strat magnetic pole pieces polarized differently?

I'm asking because I'm wondering if this has any influence on the single coil sound.