Svento

Distilled water?

A bit on the heavy side but probably a good idea. It must be kept at a rather low temperature though, otherwise, it's not hard, strong and stable enough.

Is there any composite material with a perfectly neutral tone? Something that doesn't add anything to the sound, not dampening, absorbing nor resonating.

Probably the big thing won't be strengthening the body but making something for the neck pocket. Maybe a pice of wood should be placed there where the neck can rest.

Maybe there's some way of testing? If I'd attach something heavy to the ribs and try and hear if it makes any difference... maybe I could put a plate behind that mechanical thing that holds the chinrest? A carpenter is fiddling with my violin right now, but I'll make some experiments when I get it back.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-beam

Look at the "Design for bending" section and apply that to a balsa core guitar with more traditional top and back (substitute I-beam web with balsa core)

Å fyfan, det var tung läsning...

The text was on a level a bit too high for me and I didn't understand much of it. But I'll keep reading.

A traditional fiddle and an electric fiddle are very different animals.... and guys have tried to take the knowledge of a guitar and apply it to a fiddle - they might as well have been applying it to a tuba.... as you have stated there is a lot of bad info out there....

Yes. And regarding some other details, I wish e-violin luthier had taken a lot more knowledge from electric guitars, like the general construction of the instrument. There's no knowledge at all about how vibrations go from the string via the bridge and further to the body. A body is built with the shape of an acoustic fiddle, only with solid maple instead of a resonant box. That would require a rather solid bridge or the energi would just feed back into the strings. And even if they made that transfering work, solid maple has a quite painful sound... With a body made from light weight and resonant wood along with a stiff and solid bridge, no rubber dampening would be needed. The thing wouldn't sound like an acoustic, but I'm not sure that's the purpose of an electric fiddle.

Anyhow, back to your original idea: it makes a lot more sense now.... unfortunately i think that the conversion would need a bit of beefing up around the jack to make it substantial enough to last... if you wanted to be able to go back to just an acoustic instrument, i think the additional bracing would indeed make a sonic difference

I wonder... The question is whether or not the ribs make any sound. The ribs and the bottom are made from maple and as far as I know they're supposed to be stiff, non-vibrant and silent, but I'm not sure about that. Mounting things on the strings, the soundboard or the bridge would definitly mute the tone, but the back and the ribs, as far as I know, only serves the purpose of containing the air that amplifies the vibrations of the soundboard.

I don't understand. What is it that I should test with that stringed log?

I wish you had provided the additional info from the start as it didn't seem like you had much of a grasp on the topic, which now doesn't seem to be the case

When I discuss this on fiddle sites, it's well known to any decent citizen that magnetic pu:s simply can't work with bowed instruments. The empiric proof is that fiddlers traditionally use piezos... There is so much superstition and anti-intellectualism that any serious retard would have nightmares. Other examples are how e-fiddles are constructed, a massive lump of maple because maple is the material (acoustic) fiddles are made from, 35 mm thick, then a thin flexive acoustic bridge standing on top of that. For some reason this bridge doesn't manage to transfer string vibration onto the heavy piece of wood. A scientific approach would be to examine the properties of the bridge and the body and realize that the body should be made from a less dense wood and the bridge should be made more stiff and heavy, but no... Instead a rubber plate is placed between bridge and body so that the transfer is cut completely and the tone is killed; the body becomes dead weight. If they'd asked any maker of electric guitars they would have had some relevant guidance, but they won't ask. I had my electric made from mahogany and semi-solid, yet the bridge was too weak, so I got some painful and weird overtones. I had a bridge made from ebony and brass and led the strings through the body instead of using the floating trapeze acoustic tailpiece and got good sound without those painful overtones. No fiddler or fiddle luthier would ever had gotten that idea, it came to me after years of activity on guitar forums. People there usually aren't familiar with the misconceptions in the fiddle world that are considered scientific facts.

Therefore I usually don't have to explain all those things with guitar people. With a little insight in the fiddle world, though, I guess that one may have heard about some of those old wisdoms, for example that magnetic pu:s don't work with bowed instruments. That's not very strange because normal guitar type magnetic pu:s certainly won't work because they're sensitive to the vertical movements of the string, while the bowed string moves horizontally. It's easy to solve this problem though. Individual coils placed between the strings will read the horizontal movements and work with bowed instruments. Of course the pu must be arched like the fingerboard and the coils should have the right angle to eachother.

I avoid those discussions because there are those old misconceptions about bowed instruments plus some facts that's not common knowledge in the guitar world. The sensitivity of the guitar pu isn't known by makers of guitar pu:s because it's not important. Those pu:s reads the vertcal movements and obviously that's enough. To make a pu for bowed instruments though, that knowledge is essential, and the pu must be constructed differently. I've had this discussion with some extraordinary pu makers and they won't believe me... Therefore it's hard to find someone to make a pu for me because they've tried the plucked instrument approach with no success. That kind of construction with individual coils between the strings sounds completely weird for most pu makers, so they won't try even if they get paid!

Again I woukd say talk to firefly she knows the structure of violins better than most in thks group.

I will.

I didn't ask about pickups and amplification... I've been using magnetic pu for seven years. Two small coils made molded into plastic, arched like the fingerboard, made exclusively for fiddle. It works fine and I'd never rely on anything else. All these years I've been playing it through a guitar amp and it works fine - no need for preamp. I've never given gut strings a single thought. I wouldn't dream of using anything other than steel - even for acoustic playing.

The only commercial manufacturer of magnetic pu:s for fiddles that I've heard about is Bowtronics. My pu is made from them and it works because it's made with two individual coils, one for each string-couple, placed between the strings. They disappeared mainly because fiddlers who'd never tried it insisted in the fact that magnetic pu:s don't work with violins... I took part in several discussions on the subject a few years ago, but my opinion was irrelevant. I wasn't reliable because I actually used a magnetic pu... Now there's a German fiddler - Uli Bösking (from whom I bought my Bowtronics) - who's developed a pu from the same principles as Bowtronics, only it's adjustable. The big problem with making magnetic pu:s for fiddles is the intelligence level of the average fiddler. Fiddlers who never tried them know that they won't work... I've never had problems with sound guys. I adjust my amp until it sounds good and the guitarist does the same with his. I don't understand what would be the problem.

So I know what kind of pu I want and need and how to amplify it. My question is whether or not a tele jack in the ribs will ruin the sound. Some fiddle people say it would but I'm sceptical, because the ribs aren't really supposed to vibrate.

Balsa is good as an acoustic isolator.... if you want to make a lightweight body, try this http://www.worldpaulownia.com/html/tech.html

Still, I've heard people say it has a good taptone, and that's my impression too.

I've been told that balsa wood has great tonal qualities, but being so light weight and soft it's a bit unpractil for instrument buildning. What kind of reinforcements would be necessary to make a solid body from balsa?

For the first I guess that string tension would bend the body, so I guess the body must be reinforced for that reason. Next problem is neck joint, I guess that part should cause some problems too... With a bolt-on neck, maybe one wooden plugg for each bolt should be enough, so that the neck pocket isn't compressed when drawing the bolts? Then there should be some problems with screws for bridge, scratch plate and output jack. If the body has a top and a bottom made from something harder, that wouldn't be a problem, otherwise one could set a wooden plugg in the balsa body for each screw?

a piezo pickup on the bridge and the jack mounted to the side of the chin plate is pretty customary any more.... if you can hear a gnat fart, you will hear the difference having those mounted makes.... make sure you have a good pre-amp as the first in line...running a 3 foot cable to a belt pack is the best way to keep it simple.... if you run it through an amp, take your time to find the correct amp first.... a good tube pre-amp is very beneficial

Amplifying won't be a problem, I'll use the same amp as I use for my electric. Magnetic pu, no preamp needed. My only concern is about taking up a whole in the ribs, as it is irreversable. What worries me is that some people - most of them - says that the sound won't be affected in any way, because the the ribs aren't any vibrating parts. Others say that any surgery in the ribs will have very big effect because they're so thin from the start.

thats the problem with asking violin questions on a guitar forum. we just dont get it.

Yes, but I always get more relevant answers compared to when I talk with violin people.

You could probably modify a guitar strap pin jack like the one bender mentioned to work as an endpin. I don't play violin but do play double bass. on a violin the endpin just has to hold the tailgut, right?

It would point right into my throat... I wouldn't be able to sing while playing.

Not at all. I'm asking about how the acoustic sound would be affected. I want an alround instrument for acoustic as well as electric playing, but if the output jack would kill the sound and make it suitable only for amplified playing, I rather leave it untouched and use an other instrument for electric playing.

You could use a strap button jack socket, replacing the body end strap button. That way, you don't need to make a hole in the body

Okay... It's not a guitar, it's a fiddle. Still, it's the general principle I'm out for and that should be the same for bowed and plucked instruments.

Not at all. I'm asking about how the acoustic sound would be affected. I want an alround instrument for acoustic as well as electric playing, but if the output jack would kill the sound and make it suitable only for amplified playing, I rather leave it untouched and use an other instrument for electric playing.

Are we talking a guitar that's smaller? Or an ACTUAL smaller instrument... like a fiddle or mando? It's pretty simple... if the structures don't change and you're just putting a pickup somewhere that doesn't interfere with moving parts, it's not going to change tonally. If you change size, structure, bracing pattern, or pop something in there to weight down the top (like a pickup) it will.

Chris

Yes, let's say it's a fiddle.

Very interesting. I've posted the questions on some fiddle forums and the only ones actually trying to answer my question say that it would have great effect and only leave acoustic output volume for practicing purposes. I can't believe that. But I'm not surprised, fiddlers are complete idiots...

About the pu, this one will be mounted at the end of the fingerboard, so it won't touch the soundboard.

What if it's a smaller instrument then? Like a fiddle or a mandolin?

Does an acoustic instrument lose much tone with built in electronics? The pu will be mounted at the end of the fingerboard and won't be in touch with any vibrating parts, but I'm thinking about a tele jack permanently installed in the ribs.

Would look nice on something like a Les Paul Junior with a double cuttaway. P90 pickup and a white Sonex style pickup shield.

Thanks everybody for fast reply!

Having a short fuse I'll just go the piezo way.

Is there anyone here who would make a pickup for me? I have an idea -- nothing strange or revolutionizing, but still not really available on the market -- and I haven't found anyone to make it for me.

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