mrjstudios

Ehhhh...... I wouldn't say that just yet..... You have seen how my newest dual coil design was built -- almost to the exact same specs as yours was, just a little less squeezed together -- and that stupid F/R will not drive it at all. Even that little 4watt practice amp works much, much better than the F/R without even being modified (I just swapped the speaker leads onto the sustainer) and at FULL gain AND volume that dual coil sustainer didn't even distort or squeel at all in regular (not harmonic) mode. So, although a lot of people have used the F/R to success with single coil drivers, I think for some unknown reason that the F/R circut will not work specifically with a dual rail design. Perhaps it is the 16ohm coils wired in parallel or something, but there is a huge difference in performance between my single and dual coil drivers when hooked up to the F/R. That huge performance difference was not evident between the 2 different driver designs with the mini-amp circut (and was actually reversed, with the dual coil driver working much better, instead of much worse than the single coil.) Very weird stuff. Excited to see your new circut PSW, and hopefully it will make my testing much more productive/consistant. -MRJ

I didn't think my bi-lateral driver would trap that much magnetic field.... oh well. The concept sounds cool and all, but do you think perhaps there is a reason why none of these are in production any more? Anyway, if I can get magnets, I just may want to try building this. By the way, listen to the Eddie Van Halen songs "Rise" and "Catherine," and the Van Halen song "Learning to See." Those songs were made with the extensive use of the sustainer, and really show what a true artist can accomplish with the device. They were basically the reason I got into this stuff in the first place, because when watching one of them on Youtube, I saw a comment that said "check out that sustainer pickup," and of course I Googled it. That led me here..... -MRJ

Here is another thought. -MRJ

Yes, I know -- I removed the other pickups from my guitar period. Right now it just has a single coil strat pickup, and the sustainer.... that's why I thought it might be a circut error.... Uh, sorry... no. I must not quite understand the concept of pot's or something.... I thought that if you had a signal lowered down enough that you could make the sustainer not even work at all. Like you said - you could extend the time it takes to overdrive... so then couldn't you find a sweetspot where it either took too long to get to that point to ever notice while playing, or just didn't ever overdrive at all?? I don't know. As for your Bi-Lateral design.... how many coils are in either driver section, and to what ohmage would you wind it, and with what guage wire?! Once you finish the full sustainer circut, and I have built it and have it working solidly, I might be up to this new driver challenge. By the way.... I tested both my single coil driver (9.3ohms) and my new dual coil driver with that 4watt practice amp. The single coil did almost nothing in regular mode; it only sustained a few open strings. The dual coil driver didn't really do any better, but in regular mode I was able to turn the amp up to full volume, which should be way overkill, and it did not squeel!!! So the dual coil parallel driver definitely has a much improved EMI response. I am excited to see what it will do with the new circut, and maybe it will turn out that our 'mid-driver' concept works perfectly in the neck position. Will test more later..... -MRJ

Hmmm.... is right. That is the exact same results I got with my driver in harmonic mode (in the limited testing that I got done with the crappy F/R), and my driver was about 10cm away from the bridge pickup -- and might I add not a mid driver or a dual coil driver. It was my single coil driver being used with our more 'modern' techniques of placement and arrangement. I would lean toward that being a circut error on both of our parts -- don't give up on dual coil just yet Hmmmm...... But good progress anyway -- any tests at all are useful tests. I do still believe that the rail driver is the way to go though, mostly because of the string-bending principals alone, and because of there simple, clean, and good easy to build design. Poles would just focus the energy more and perhaps make a more intense drive, while also not performing while bending strings, so the rail just seems to be a good medium. As for the over-driving of the strings.... wouldn't you rather have more power/ headroom and be able to just turn the thing down? I sure would, given my largely inefficient and underpowered single coil driver thus far. And just like the pricipal of amps, more headroom would also mean a cleaner sound at the lower to mid levels of operation!! You may have stumbled on a partial cure for our distortion!! If we build circuts designed to run off the same wattage, ohmage, etc., as before, but given their different designs / preamp combinations they are more powerful, then just turning them down to normal sustainer operation levels would give us a cleaner signal (via more headroom) and also conserve the battery life too, or at least make them as efficient as the previous sustainers. To test this theory, I'm gonna hook up my 4watt, 8ohm guitar practice amp (shown previously) to my single coil driver. I will just keep it turned WAY DOWN, since this thing has about 60-80% headroom for sustainer purposes. Might make a demo vid if it works well.... You mean my beloved Guitar Research 850's (with a .09 guage high E string) will never work with the sustainer?! Darn. -MRJ

As for the sustainer: I'd like some ideas as to how I should fill the ~2mm total gap between my cores and my magnet. Would metal strips do just fine, or should I magnetize some metal strips and then match the poles to the magnet? And the final count is: Dual-Coil Driver = 7.79ohms Total (15.8ohms x 15.4ohms in parallel) -MRJ

Truth_David Well, after a very fine and extensive search of the internet, I found that there is NO way to aquire a schematic for a HT amp.... Pearce amps seem to be the same way, unless you buy a $20 service manual, but even that may not have a full schematic. Hmmm. Basically my idea, (which by the way I got from not wanting the effect in my sustainer circut) would be to use the same basic layout of a tube amp, but insert some sort of small circut (such as the THUNDERCHIEF pedal) into the place of each tube. Pedals like that one from runoffgrove seem to emulate a tube sound very simply and very well, all in a small 9v scale, so I thought perhaps if you used bigger parts that could handle the full 120v, you could use that kind of circut design repeated as a 'tube unit' in as many places as you would normally put a tube. Maybe I am oversimplifying this past where it could realistically be implemented, but oh well. Another thought I had was to build 'tube-sounding conversions' for old solid state amps. Like in most 80's amps, my solid state Peavey's effects chain is inbetween the preamp and poweramp stages. Wouldn't that let you have 'access' to what type of gain/overdrive is going into the poweramp?! Like Eddie Van Halen says, his tone is all in the preamp stage, and having enough headroom to force a ton of tube power into the poweramp, creating his signature sound. Soooo... if you could simply place a tube emulating circut in between the preamp and poweramp, shouldn't the amp itself distort much more like a tube amp? I (thought) I understood that the great tube tone comes from the preamp tubes 'rounding off' the soundwaves (instead of clipping them like a solid state amp would) when they distort them, so why couldn't a tube emulator, or even a real tube box be used in these solid-states to make them sound like tube amps?! Well, anyway.... looks like some good progress on the new circut. Hey PSW, given any thought as to what its name will be?! -MRJ

Hey, you could make an ULTRA switch... one that activates the sustainer using the pickup selector type switch, and then the top knob part twists to click in or out of harmonic mode! Just a thought.... might be hard to build without some commercial micro-electronics. I wouldn't ask Juan to help me take on such a task fully anyway -- way too much to ask.... I just wondered if there was someone already doing it, and maybe had a team of helpers, or a schematic that was proven to work.... oh well. -MRJ

Great! I know that will save me time already! Hmmm, not sure. I didn't notice though, because I have this thread bookmarked directly because it is so useful. (and mind boggling at times ) Hey, any electronics wiz's out there on this thread want to help me design and build a DIY 100watt 5150-like or Marshall-like amp head?!?!? I just figured out that there may be a way to build these type amps WITHOUT tubes, and still get a very tube-true sound without any digital or external effects/moddlers.... (Just a thought/side project) If so, tell me and I'll start a new thread. -MRJ

That would be a great idea. Even though my soldering skills are getting pretty good now, I still would probably want to make the bigger layout just for troubleshooting and testing purposes. Also, my sustainer guitar (XS002) has been built to fit quite large sustainer amp designs in it, so for me, I won't bother compacting everything. By the way, it would be awesome if you used that DIY Layout Creator free software and let people download the file for your layout. That way we could see the under-the-board jumpers and such much more easily. -MRJ

Really..... Well, I suppose if I get some free time (and once we have a working circut here that I will build and test, etc.) I could use some of my extra .25mm Milspec wire and make a 2 x 4ohm in series. Not sure where I will get a decent magnet though.... even with a bunch of craft stores nearby, I have not been able to find ANY applicable magnets. SO.... I am limited to my 2 stolen-from-strat-pickup magnets, one of which is superglued into my single coil driver, and the other that will be used on my 2 x 16ohm parallel coil driver. Hmmmm..... Still -- as much as I want to experiment with the drivers, the circut really does need to be completed for many of us, including me, to be able to be of any help in experimentation and testing. PSW, it looks like you will have a good one soon, so hopefully we can all put circut concerns on the back burner and make drivers, (and perhaps you could make some $$$.... or, I mean of course, A$A$A$.....) -MRJ

PSW Well, I probably could have squeezed it the remaining 2mm that the magnet does not fill, but I was working with clamps and a pre-cut bobbin that I had to guess on... and, had I made the bobbin slots a little closer, it would have been nearly impossible to slide both coils on it at all. So yes, it is not 'perfect', but I am very happy with how clean and tight the coils and entire driver are so far. And don't be fooled by the pics; it is only 26mm wide compared to a slim single that is 18mm. I could even shave 3-5mm off the sides too if I wanted. About your circut.... Sounds very good so far -- you got a solid LM386 stage (which is what I wanted ). I also very much like the LED on board indicator and and the gain adjustment will be nice.... -MRJ

Stick around.... we are working (mostly PSW and a few others) on a new amp that is not only very simple, like the ruby, but actually works really well too. It seems the Ruby by itself just can't quite cut it for this project, so that is why many people use the Fetzer/Ruby amp... but it has some major drawbacks. Just wait until everyone can figure out the new design.... if you can. Otherwise a bare minimum to build is the Fetzer/Ruby circut from runoffgrove.com. -MRJ

Oh really. That's good to know. It still may work to switch it out though -- the strings would just be a little closer, etc.

I think as long as your guitar has the 'recessed' Floyd Rose routing pattern, you can basically switch them out. Just take the old one off and try it.... no harm done there because if it doesn't fit, you can just put the old one back on. Just don't go routing your guitar right off the bat to "make it work"....... -MRJ STUDIOS

I used Krylon on my custom guitar to great success (I did use about 10 coats in some areas.) But my only problem with it is that it is TOO "rubbery." I is so flexible that it will not only never crack, it won't harden completely either. It just is not the most solid of paints when dryed.... but that could just be the 10+ coats...... -MRJ STUDIOS

Well, here it comes... Pictures of the first stage of building the dual coil sustainer: I used the same cores as the 1st try (seen previously), but this time they are much closer together. Temporary bobbins attached to the cores with hot glue were used again also, but this time they were this size. This is the bobbin structure without a core and coil in it, so that you all can see it better. The side pieces are the correct coil depth, and were used to squeeze the coils in towards the core. Here they are again being used to squeeze the coils inward on their final bobbins. This is the clamp system I used before I squeezed the coils in as shown in the last picture.... this is the key to getting the entire driver correctly aligned. *Note that the 2 main clamps never touch the cores!! Spacers (wood here) must be used* **Note the 3rd smaller clamp that is holding the 2 cores... since the coils were squeezed together to be put onto the final bobbin, they of course wanted to push themselves apart before they dried (which took 2 days), and that pressure caused the cores to want to angle apart (very bad!!!) I used that 3rd clamp to keep the cores perfectly parallel. And here is the final result so far. *Note that the cores DO NOT have to be that tall.... mine just are for mounting purposes...* -MRJ

I agree! Now if only we could figure out a DIY 5150 III amp to build!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As for my driver.... it is still clamped (I will share this technique soon, as it is very simple but also pretty foolproof) and is drying well. I'm gonna putty it today I think.... while it is still in the clamps which I think could be beneficial because then no structure/shape can be lost in that process.... anyway, like I said, pictures soon. Oh, and about hot glue molding..... I have actually had success in that field (believe it or not). I used mid/high temp hot glue, and used Sculpey clay to make the molds (it bakes hard in your oven and doesn't smell bad). As long as you either slightly oil the molds or slightly powder them with ground up clay dust, you can pull the hardened glue out pretty easy. Also, your mold has to be 2 equally deep pieces (no one piece pour-glue-in-the-top molds.... tried it, doesn't work.) You can even paint the dried glue (I have only tried high quality Acryllic, not oil base.....) -MRJ

*(Now remeber, this is just me....all of the rest of you listen to PSW on this one )* I am proud to say that with my tinkerings and construction of various items including guitars, amps, movie-prop lightsabers, computers, and costumes to name a few, I have become a HOT GLUE EXPERT!!!!! I think (as lame as this sounds) that I have mastered working with the substance and have complete control of it. Anyway, one man's messy glue is another man's sculptable masterpiece-building-material. (heh heh heh) If you have not had the misfortune/fortune of using this stuff as much as me though, stick to super glue.... ....just don't sniff it I will use that... but one concern: Can the chemicals in the putty 'melt' or 'eat' thru the insulation on the magnet wire causing the driver to short?? Just a thought.... -MRJ

Well, another test on the driver says that it will be approx. 7.3ohms when finished.... Should be ok.... It is drying right now on the permanent bobbins. I really was able to squeeze it together, so that there will only be a 1mm gap on either side of the magnet between the cores. That can easily be spaced with steel as opposed to the 3+mm gap on the 1st try..... I think I will use that Testors "Contour Putty" to fill and solidify this driver. Hot glue will only be used to tack the magnet onto the bottom of the bobbin. Also.... I found this a ways back in the thread. It seems to explain in detail the circut and other "trade secrets"......just scroll down. http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5932827.html -MRJ

Well, I'll just use that mini amp for my tests then.... at least for now. Go #2 at the 2 x 16ohm parallel driver is underway. I just stripped the coils off of my first one and re-wound them...they are drying now and this time one is 15.9ohms and the other is 16.4ohms!!!!!!!! The other one just wasn't gonna work so I deceided to scrap its coils. This one will look better too -- more like PSW's, but with a white finish instead.... I have a putty made by Testors that is kind of like epoxy putty -- I think, so I may use it instead of so much hot glue. As for the magnet/core spacing, do the cores need to directly touch the magnet, or can the magnet be spaced in between the cores with hot glue or other non-magnetic substances about 3mm away from either core and still be effective? -MRJ ***EDIT/UPDATE*** Progress report: The 2 cores are now re-wound and potted. I used a similar technique as PSW this time, as an add-on to my temporary bobbin construction, by squeezing the coil in towards the center along its length right after winding it and checking its ohmage. I did this by clamping scrap pieces of plastic inbetween the bobbins (cut to 3mm like the height of the coil itself) using slight pressure from C clamps. This method very effectively and evenly squeezes the coils inward without risking wire cutting or mishaping of the coil. (I will post pictures later -- it is too late and dark now.) I'm letting it dry over night for "coil shape retension" safety and then will take off the temp bobbins in the morning and further squeeze the coils in when I slide the cores onto the permanent bobbins (like I did with the first one). These slight changes in my design will make the coil spacing more similar to PSW's, but not quite as compact. For some reason I think there is some sort of advantage in keeping it a little further apart, but I could be wrong. I will then use the above (pictured) amp to test the new driver when it is done. (I would say in 1-2 days...) And most importantly -- YOUTUBE video(s) will be posted so that everyone can see a realistic demonstration of our current progress. (If it is possible for you PSW, please post at least some sound samples!!! I would love to hear your sustainer and your playing!) Also, once we get the circut figured out, and regardless of the dual coil project's progress as a whole, I think me, PSW, Avalon, Col, and any other of the "big experimenters" should make some sort of "finalized" tutorial and perhaps a website devoted to the circut, the single coil driver, the dual coil driver, and tapping into your guitars wiring to modify it for the sustainer. That way, we could still use this forum to discuss progress, but beginners like me (a short time ago..) could find solid designs and a much more approachable source of info. -MRJ

Another thought..... This is a 4 watt 8ohm practice amp that runs on 2 x 9volts or a 9v adapter (it should run on just 1 x 9volt). Although it is 4 watts, couldn't this run a sustainer if turned down very quiet, or if some sort of resistor is added in before the output? It is a little big (10cm x 7cm), but could be put in a guitar, or run in a "driver box" like you had before PSW. Since it is a guitar amp, it should be premade for the right frequency ranges, and it already has all of the necessary inputs and outputs that a sustainer related amp needs (+ an added bonus of a 9v adapter plug built right in it!) I want to use this to test my new drivers until we get a good solid custom circut devised here, so I don't fall too far behind with the dual coil project.... Tell me what you all think.... -MRJ

Good. I got 2 here, so I can help build your test circut whenever you post the layout very fast, and without having to order a lot of parts. I'm glad we are addressing the circut now -- because I can't even begin to test and re-design my dual coil driver without a good circut! I am basically stalled..... So any developments on a new (especially a LM386 based) circut is appreciated! -MRJ Hey, wait a sec.... could a dual Ruby or dual champ amp be used as a preamp/poweramp setup?......

Ok, just got on and read all of your updates PSW.... last few days this website said it had exceded bandwidth and was shut down.... I really like how those circuts are looking. Very, very simple (most important) but very small too. Hearing about the response problems, and the lack of a power advantage with the new chip, again I am leaning towards the LM386 because it seems to do much better with high-end response when fitted with the right caps (like your mods and the champ circut) and it doesn't run hot. Even running my 9v (which was really like 10v) straight thru one of my first simple circuts and into the LM386 for over half an hour, it did not overheat, or even get warm enough to worry me. Just something to consider..... Another thing is that whenever we do get a better circut here, I may put the power amp section up near the driver, but I will still stick the first stage back in the guitar cavity that I made for the sustainer, (with the battery), and put the controls near the output jack and other guitar controls like they are currently. I may get a little more EMI than you guys, but I'm not using a full mid-driver either.... Anyway, the one thing that I like of your circut as-is already is the buffer that would essentially replace the Fetzer. That is perfectly simple, and it looks like it is a solid design, with only necessary parts. One question: Is it possible to build the poweramp stage that you built with a LM386 substituted in? That other chip is the same form factor, and the circut opperates in about the same ranges (i would think), so could the design be either unchanged, and a 386 swapped in, or slightly modified to put in the 386? Remember also, the Ruby was built for "many shades of sparkly clean all the way up to a great, natural overdrive." And I think I have been getting into that 'great, natuaral overdrive' which is bad for a sustainer. With your circut that replaces the Ruby, no J201's are used, which makes the circut much simpler, and cleaner sounding. I think the J201 type chips are basically meant for distortion, because I am building a DIY stompbox that simulates a Marshall 100w Lead Stack, and the SOLE chip in it is 4 J201s! Finding that out really made me take a closer look at my sustainer circut, and want to get rid of the J201 (like you did) so that I could get a cleaner sound. -MRJ

Sounds good. As long as you can keep me up to speed with the entirety of the circut you are building/designing (in other words, show me a layout or diagram for everything inbetween the battery and the driver itself -- the WHOLE circut) I will continue to build test circuts as well so I can get past the circut problems and try to help improve the mid driver design. I wouldn't be as eager to do this with my poor soldering skills... but with even my 2nd F/R acting up, and my soldering quickly improving, I need something better. -MRJ