My First Acoustic Thread

[GoodWood]

Thought I might get this started. Watch the progress as it goes along.

Body is finally bent, and neckblock and kerf are just on the way. I had to set up my dish sanding dealie/Go-bar press tonight. Looks like the setup will work, Ill post it tomorrow. Basicly, to sand the sides in the dish to radious you rock it back and forth, - I added a simple top and back anchor so the rocking is consistant. It also allows me to push the center of the dish back a couple inches accuratly.

Got the neck top cut also, and wow, I was quarter-saw cutting my maple binding, trim and it flexes alot without even cracking! Nice and strait also.

Edited July 8, 2007 by GoodWood

[Acousticraft]

Looking good. I assume you have a mould to clamp your sides in to keep its shape?

[Daniel Sorbera]

Looking good. I assume you have a mould to clamp your sides in to keep its shape?

+1 on the mold. What wood is that?

[GoodWood]

Looking good. I assume you have a mould to clamp your sides in to keep its shape?

+1 on the mold. What wood is that?

Yea, got a mold, the picture looks distorted.

That is mahogany. Oh, the neck is African Mahgany. Its perfectly quartered, but I like Honduras better.

Given my dish depths which I just measured, I will not be getting the side depth that i wanted!

Edited July 8, 2007 by GoodWood

[jason f]

What type of acoustic are you making and whats this dish thingy ?

[GoodWood]

What type of acoustic are you making and whats this dish thingy ?

Its a dreadnaught style, and the dish rounds out the top and bottom braces.

Just cut the "tiger" maple for backsplice and binding. Whew, table saw stress! But it went through really strait.

Edited July 9, 2007 by GoodWood

[Acousticraft]

Those sides look like Sapele with those stripes running through it?

I never bothered with a dish as such. I made some sheet-metal radius templates 20' and 25' radius. I cant remember if those are the correct radius es as it years since I originally made them. I made the braces and sanded them to the radius of the template. 25' for the soundboard and 20' for the back?

I cut out and sanded a couple of thick MDF strips with the matching internal radius sanded in them. I notched them so when they are put together they made an X to match the X bracing on the other side. I used them to clamp the glued X brace and soundboard to to pull into into the correct radius. With this setup you could still use a go bar type flexible sticks to clamp it down if you had a low ceiling over your bench. Those long plastic garden stakes you can buy would be perfect for the job.

I can see how those radius dishes and go bars would speed up gluing but they aren't essential. Once the X brace is glued down the sound board is pretty much the right shape

Edited July 11, 2007 by Acousticraft

[fryovanni]

How wide are your sides? Remember to leave the top surface of the rim straight and cut to adjust for depth(neck to heel taper) on the back side of the rim only. Radius dishes are great. A couple rads I like to use is 25' top, and 15' back. Although there are no set in stone rules(25,28,32 and so forth are also used on tops, 15-20 are not uncommon on backs). I use my radius dish to mark the rim for cutting. I place the top side down(it stays straight) and block up the back dish above the back(accounting for the neck to rear taper by using different blocks(then place a bit of weight on the back of the dish to keep it stable). Then I use a little stick with a piece of pencil lead attached to it to transfer the radius from the dish to the rim. Very simple just take your time and be sure the dish is stable and level from side to side, and matches the taper front to back. I use a different just to route the radius into my bracing. Look here for some jig ideas-jigs

As for sanding the radius into the rims. The top is left straight, and be sure the back is ruff cut very close. Lock the rim in your mold. Set the radius dish w/ sandpaper attached to it on the side you are working the radius into. Mark the rim with a pencil to track your progress(you may do this a couple times to confirm you are getting an even surface) and work the dish in a circlular fashion over the rim. If you cut close it will take you a couple minutes to transfer a perfect radius into the sides. Be mindful of the fretboard area on the top. I personally transition to a flat surface in the neck block area after radiusing, although some float the fretboard with an evenly radiused top(review your plans to determine how to handle this area(and refer to the link above for ideas on how to make jigs that can help with this).

Peace and good luck,Rich

[Acousticraft]

When I made my first acoustic using "The Steel String Guitar" book by David Russell Young (Out of print) the plan for making templates for the sides are shown in the book. It gives a nice curve to the back when viewed from the side which of course makes the body stiffer. I marked the shape on the sides before they were bent and once bent, cut and sanded them before they were clamped in the mould. Worked brilliantly.

[fryovanni]

When I made my first acoustic using "The Steel String Guitar" book by David Russell Young (Out of print) the plan for making templates for the sides are shown in the book. It gives a nice curve to the back when viewed from the side which of course makes the body stiffer. I marked the shape on the sides before they were bent and once bent, cut and sanded them before they were clamped in the mould. Worked brilliantly.

Pre shaping the side before bending is possible, but you have got to have a flawless bending system, and hope you are able to align the sides perfectly(Taylor factory can nail that every time, but I am not that good). If you wing a back shape of if it is off slightly you can make it work and it will look fair, but the rim may not have a really tight match to the back radius. The beauty of using a sanding dish to mark, cut, and sand is that you have the same reference. This creates a very good tight joint that will minimise stress from a radius mismatch.

Peace,Rich

[jofes]

Thought I might get this started. Watch the progress as it goes along.

Body is finally bent, and neckblock and kerf are just on the way. I had to set up my dish sanding dealie/Go-bar press tonight. Looks like the setup will work, Ill post it tomorrow. Basicly, to sand the sides in the dish to radious you rock it back and forth, - I added a simple top and back anchor so the rocking is consistant. It also allows me to push the center of the dish back a couple inches accuratly.

Got the neck top cut also, and wow, I was quarter-saw cutting my maple binding, trim and it flexes alot without even cracking! Nice and strait also.

GoodWood, I will have to follow this one. Just bought a nice peice of mahogany for my next Acoustic. I will probably start in the fall. What scale length are you using? Jofes.

[GoodWood]

Im using the 25.4. Ill have LMI fretnotch the board for me.

Here is my mold with the endcenter points, Im using bolts to hold down one end while it gets sanded in the dish. The Dish will have a hole in exact center to rotate the andpaper with. As the ends need sanding most, this should do the trick. It hopefully allows me to move the top of the guitar forward in the dish, and the hump of the dish is closer to where the bridge will be. Kinkead uses a dish also, and his is not exactly centered like the commercial ones.

[GoodWood]

This is a crack repair I am attempting. Its a Carpathian Spruce top, I got it for $15.00 and its going through the ringer like the sides and everything else I guess (You can see the tight inner grain, and wider outer grain, this dealer no longer exists on ebay ). Cracked it when I was 'test' bending it.

I first drill a 'stop hole' at the end of the crack with my smallest drill bit, and then go 1/4 inch out and drill another. This will 'stop' the crack from splitting along its own grain line. Then I am using a woodcarving V gouge to gouge out a channel in one half of the tops crack on the bottom as seen, and cut a corresponding gouge of wood out of the soundhole scrapwood. I will glue this to a 'perfect' match into the gouge trench, and do the same on the other side. You can see the patch dissapear already before its glued in. You could get a perfect match if you wanted using this method, if you were really picky. I estimate no longer than half hour to do this.

One Question!

Hide or Super glue?

Edited July 24, 2007 by GoodWood

[Mattia]

Hide. No question.

[fryovanni]

2nd. The hide.

P.S. If you are in doubt of the integrety of the soundboard it may be better to use a different one(soundboard is critical). With all the work you are going to put into building, and wanting it to last. Cracks popping up in the top after it is in service for 3 months would be a bummer.

Peace,Rich

[GoodWood]

Go-bar deck is done, and working. This is just a test run. Im looking at cheap tops and bracewood right now, wondering if I should do a test top. I am definetly going to retop 2 or 3 crap guitars, and back one or 2 before going on after this guitar! Why sweat the good guitar wood?

Edited August 9, 2007 by GoodWood

[fryovanni]

Go-bar deck is done, and working. This is just a test run. Im looking at cheap tops and bracewood right now, wondering if I should do a test top. I am definetly going to retop 2 or 3 crap guitars, and back one or 2 before going on after this guitar! Why sweat the good guitar wood?

GW,

Just a thought on re-topping as opposed to building from scratch. You are going to miss out on the experience gained on all your other tasks. Maybe a suggestion if you are looking to experiment with you bracing(voicing). Place a removable ispection cover on the end of one of your practice guitars. You can play with adjustments in bracing, and sanding the thickness of the top to see how it effects performance. I have found good jigs that work well for your methods really make the whole process go smoother. If you have all your jigs working well for you then you will be able to build quickly and accurately(allowing more time to relax and focus on voicing, and details). Getting the right jigs and refining them is really best done on full builds. This is just what I have found, I know we all build a little different though .

[GoodWood]

Go-bar deck is done, and working. This is just a test run. Im looking at cheap tops and bracewood right now, wondering if I should do a test top. I am definetly going to retop 2 or 3 crap guitars, and back one or 2 before going on after this guitar! Why sweat the good guitar wood?

GW,

Just a thought on re-topping as opposed to building from scratch. You are going to miss out on the experience gained on all your other tasks. Maybe a suggestion if you are looking to experiment with you bracing(voicing). Place a removable ispection cover on the end of one of your practice guitars. You can play with adjustments in bracing, and sanding the thickness of the top to see how it effects performance.

I understand what you mean, but I keep telling people on other boards to try it to get into this art form cheaply, and I think alot more people could get into this for, $100.00 dollars or less,and maybe retop a crappy guitar and get a good guitar out of it. Also, even though I am a woodcarver, carving braces to perfection will be a chore the first few times. I like lots of fudge room.

Just missed a $60 dollar Tacoma on Craigslist. Dang

I guess if I didnt mess with molds and all this would go pretty quick once you get through your (my ) first big mistakes. Most of my time was in the jigs, molds etc.

[fryovanni]

Go-bar deck is done, and working. This is just a test run. Im looking at cheap tops and bracewood right now, wondering if I should do a test top. I am definetly going to retop 2 or 3 crap guitars, and back one or 2 before going on after this guitar! Why sweat the good guitar wood?

GW,

Just a thought on re-topping as opposed to building from scratch. You are going to miss out on the experience gained on all your other tasks. Maybe a suggestion if you are looking to experiment with you bracing(voicing). Place a removable ispection cover on the end of one of your practice guitars. You can play with adjustments in bracing, and sanding the thickness of the top to see how it effects performance.

I understand what you mean, but I keep telling people on other boards to try it to get into this art form cheaply, and I think alot more people could get into this for, $100.00 dollars or less,and maybe retop a crappy guitar and get a good guitar out of it. Also, even though I am a woodcarver, carving braces to perfection will be a chore the first few times. I like lots of fudge room.

Just missed a $60 dollar Tacoma on Craigslist. Dang

I guess if I didnt mess with molds and all this would go pretty quick once you get through your (my ) first big mistakes. Most of my time was in the jigs, molds etc.

I don't think you have to spend a lot of money to get into building. I think having a person take on a re-top as the first step in building is not really the best route. You say $100 but your talking about a cheap guitar, plus some wood for a soundboard and bracing. This does not include the handful of tools you should have to do a re-top in an efficient manner. It is also a kinda backwards approach to learning, kinda like jumping in the middle. If a person wants to start cheap they should(IMO) start with neck and possibly bridge/ saddle work. If they don't have the tools and knowledge to do this work they should never even think about re-topping a guitar(how would they be able to set it up to function?). The soundboard is very important, but the task of making it and carving the braces is only a few hours worth of work on the outside. The aspects of building that relate to making and installing a soundboard to function correctly( using the proper radiusif the top is domed, getting the proper bridge and saddle height, Sanding the proper matching radius into the rim, leveling the fretboard area(if they don't use a floating fretboard), Of course all this pivots off the necks straightness, and angle(if you don't have that you will never get the relation). I can see buying a $30 cracked or damaged guitar to practice on, but the soundboard is not the area I would be that concerned with replacing unless it was damaged or distorted.

I certainly agree with you and did get into working on guitars buy working on my own and repairing fixer uppers. I don't think a person should jump into building a guitar until they have some solid neck skills at a minimum, and fixing up and setting up is not a bad way to get that skill set. I only think you and I disagree on what to try to do with a fixer upper as a learning tool. Maybe down the road we can touch on the subject again, and see if our opinions change .

Peace,Rich

[GoodWood]

I cant argue with what your saying, but I would just add that you can take the nut off the neck and/ or

redo the fretboard using a cheap LMI ($22.00) pre-fretslotted board. (Thank you LMI!)

So you could do the top, the nut/saddle, bridge plate bridge, and fretboard for about $100.00 -fine!

BUT, now you "need " a good straitedge ($100.00) etc etc for just doing a top??

Honestly, cheap tops and bracing will run $20 at the very bottom right now(Sitka, ebay) and I would get 2 sets minimum of the sitka brace stock ($2.00 +shipping).

Actually, for all those concerned, I would get some tops and just do tops and braces if you have no dough. Just make some sawdust.

Some people are not going to be good at woodworking, and this will not be for them. I dont know if other people are hiding there mistakes, but Im a 'woody' of sorts, woodcarving mainly, and every thing I do needs to be done twice in this lutheri biz! Yea, Im braintired because of the job, but this is not that hard, and man, I almost just blew a bridgeplate... Lol

[fryovanni]

I cant argue with what your saying, but I would just add that you can take the nut off the neck and/ or

redo the fretboard using a cheap LMI ($22.00) pre-fretslotted board. (Thank you LMI!)

So you could do the top, the nut/saddle, bridge plate bridge, and fretboard for about $100.00 -fine!

BUT, now you "need " a good straitedge ($100.00) etc etc for just doing a top??

Honestly, cheap tops and bracing will run $20 at the very bottom right now(Sitka, ebay) and I would get 2 sets minimum of the sitka brace stock ($2.00 +shipping).

Actually, for all those concerned, I would get some tops and just do tops and braces if you have no dough. Just make some sawdust.

Some people are not going to be good at woodworking, and this will not be for them. I dont know if other people are hiding there mistakes, but Im a 'woody' of sorts, woodcarving mainly, and every thing I do needs to be done twice in this lutheri biz! Yea, Im braintired because of the job, but this is not that hard, and man, I almost just blew a bridgeplate... Lol

Well actually I buy my Sitka in split bolt form and resaw, so my cost for Sitka is not bad at all. You are right that it is a great idea to buy up a few extra student grade boards and some extra bracing stock to get used to the process. Actually I should offer an handful o soundboards and some bracing to the guys on this board(keeping them under $20 a pop is not a problem).

The difference to me is really that there is the "woodworking" side of building, and there is the "stringed instrument" side of building. A super woodworker knows squat about stringed instrument theory(well unless like you, they have studied and practiced to gain the knowledge and skills). The beauty of having a brand new begginer start at the neck is they can get the bulk of the "instrument understanding". That way when they get to the box(which is a little heavier on the "woodworking" side of the craft) they understand the what is needed to make it play and function properly.

Like you said though, as long as they are making some sawdust they are moving forward.

Edit; You know if a person wanted all the material for an acoustic.

Mahogany/Sapele back and sides-$35

Sitka Soundboard-$15

Sitka Bracewood-$3

EIR Bridge Blank-$3

EIR Fretboard-$8

Bone Nut-$2

Bone Saddle-$3

Mahogany/Sapele neck blank and h/t blocks-$30

Ebony Bridge Pins-$6

Fretwire-$5

Wood binding($2 stick)-$10

EIR rosette blank and headplate blank-$6

Truss Rod-$10

Basic tuners-$25

Maybe $160-170 ish??? Acoustics are actually very inexpensive compaired to electrics(well unless you use Pink Ivory back and side, Snakewood binding and fretboard, and a master grade super fantabulous Italian wonder spruce soundboard, with all heart MOP purfling and a healthy load of inlay ).

Edited August 10, 2007 by fryovanni

[GoodWood]

Acoustics are actually very inexpensive compaired to electrics(well unless you use Pink Ivory back and side, Snakewood binding and fretboard, and a master grade super fantabulous Italian wonder spruce soundboard, with all heart MOP purfling and a healthy load of inlay ).

Oh, yea, thats gonna be my second one! Ill have it all down by then...

Hey, I'll be in the market for honduran sides if you have any. 5X34?

(I may also have a Tahoma something for $60.00! ) Guess no one knows Tahoma in my area.

Edited August 10, 2007 by GoodWood

[Mattia]

What Rich Said. Prices are pretty much dead-on (although you can actually get Mahogany/Sapele back/side sets from Spanish vendors for signficantly less than 35 dollars. More like a third of that, pre-shipping, and a neck blank and blocks can be as little as 10-15). I'd reccomend doing a first with indian rosewood or walnut, though, for ease of bending - mahogany is immensley variable, and people like Allied Lutherie do great deals on low grade backs that can look wonderful with a bit of extra stain on them, and also, frankly, even if you do spend 70-90 dollars on a back/side set? Who cares? You're going to be spending several hundred hours planning, shaving, fiddling, working with the stuff, may as well save up a little and do things right! I'm not saying go for master grade stuff on your first go, but get student grade tops from a reliable, trustworthy tonewood seller (ie, good quality tops, just without the runout) if you must, although with the prices for AAA tops where they are, I say go for those.

Personal breakdown of costs:

EIR set: $70

Top: (AAA) $30

Tuners: (Gotoh, minimum): $35

The rest is largely the same, and you're still only looking at around 200 dollars for a solid wood guitar with woods equal or better than mid-range to high-range factory guitars (martin and taylor don't use much 'master grade' wood). I've also pondered re-topping some of my old classicals, but frankly, that's not fun enough. Rather screw up a top on a body I made, route it off, and build myself another. My most 'expensive' wood combo and high end gotoh 510 tuners and plenty of bling will only roughly double that price (because I don't have any crazy expensive pre-cut back side sets in brazilian or similar...but I have plenty of madagascan, flamey walnut, figured sapele, bubinga, you name it..). The cheapest electric I've ever put together already hits the 250-300 dollar mark, because I don't skimp on hardware, and even cheap (GFS) pickups cost money, and then you've got all the little bits and pieces. Go upgrading hardware and using high-bling wood and it's really easy to triple that or more.

Other tooling, like a straightedge, is what will enable you to do a good setup, and make an actually playable guitar, ie, not what Rick Turner likes calling a 'Guitar-Like Object'; something that looks like a guitar, but doesn't perform well when it comes to its primary function, namely being a playable tool for musicians.

[GoodWood]

The cheapest thing to do would be to build a few tops, compare them, compare the bracing, and then replicate them on real guitars when and if your ready. That would give you a good comparison. As shown, today its doable for like about $12.00 a topw w bracewood.

The cost per guitar may be minimum, but thats using a small plane and pocketknife to shape it. You need lots of tools, molds $$$ etc, unless your above aberage inovative, which would mean your trying to retop an old crappy guitar, or making cigar box guitars already.

If you have no woodworking experience tool experience, this would be even more difficult to get into. Doable, but man....

[fryovanni]

The cheapest thing to do would be to build a few tops, compare them, compare the bracing, and then replicate them on real guitars when and if your ready. That would give you a good comparison. As shown, today its doable for like about $12.00 a topw w bracewood.

The cost per guitar may be minimum, but thats using a small plane and pocketknife to shape it. You need lots of tools, molds $$$ etc, unless your above aberage inovative, which would mean your trying to retop an old crappy guitar, or making cigar box guitars already.

If you have no woodworking experience tool experience, this would be even more difficult to get into. Doable, but man....

You make a good point GW, that it is a good idea to practice carving braces, thicknessing, cutting rosettes and so forth. It would be a good idea to point out to a person who does this that bracing and thicknessing is only a piece of the puzzle and does not fully control the sound of an acoustic.

Getting used to getting an even responce before you install the top and so forth is cool. It is unfortunatly only going to get you about 1/3 of the way to experiencing voicing a top. You need to attach the top to the rim to make additional adjustments, and after the box is closed you will make some additional adjustments to the thickness of the top itself(generally around the rim). Then there is the bridge itself. Choosing the material(density) of the bridge is a big part of the bracing and balancing game with your top. The bridge is also adjusted(shaped) a bit to fine tune it with your top. Remember your bridge accounts for better than half your total bracing weight(keep that in mind when you are making tiny adjustments to your bracing before you set the bridge). A typical Sitka soundboard with bracing is going to weigh between 250-300 grams. The internal bracing may weigh 25 grams(or there abouts). The bridge itself will weight(without pins or bridge plate) 20grams(feather weight) and 40 grams(dense material and heavy). The bridge needs to transfer the string energy to the top smoothly(this means you want the bridge to become one with the soundboard, no hard transitions). The density of the bridge will effect attack and decay in a big way. A feather weight bridge on a stiff heavy top will make for an odd balance, same holds true with a light flexable top with a heavy bridge. It is a tricky balancing game. Of course saddle height and mechanical advantage vs the density and stiffness to be driven is another balancing act, that is all set up by your choices.

There is plenty of stuff to think about, and I guess that is what is so interesting about acoustics(at least to me), and nobody has all the answers because it is such a complex system. So getting used to making soundboards is not a bad idea. It will get you used to some of the work. I think having a handful of tops to play with is a great idea(and always take notes, so you can look at what seems to work for you).

Peace,Rich