psw Posted October 10, 2008 Report Share Posted October 10, 2008 Ok...so this idea has been rattling around for a while and I got started...but not sure what the thing is going to become so I may as well share from the early stages for suggestions... This is a very strange "student" quality (as in not good) jazz guitar. I have taken the bad fake flame top finish off it (with lost of careful hand sanding) and what do I find under it...a lovely natural blonde (in real life it is normally the other way around of course )... The back is an ovation-esque plastic back and sides. It is a little hard to tell, but the pressed ply top has a distinctive violin arch top. Oddly enough, there are three addition sound holes under where I place that pickup...very odd, but this pickup completely hides they were ever there...hehehe The neck is from a slightly better strat copy. The original neck is thick and badly fretted with brass frets...as the body is reasonably compact (like a george benson kind of thing) it kind of works in it's own way... What I was thinking of doing was adding a piezo system with typical side mounted EQ and this Artec mini HB filtertron like copy. Had the sound holes been a little closer to the neck...I'd be tempted to transplant the entire strat electronics into it...as it is, perhaps this single mag might suit it better... I am tempted to add the strat bridge and tremolo into it with some reinforcing under the bridge and the piezo mounted into this support...possible... Anyway...perhaps I have not let this thing gel enough yet...so any suggestions will be taken on board... pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpm99 Posted October 10, 2008 Report Share Posted October 10, 2008 Pete, It sounds similar to what I want to do for my second project. http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=38514 I'm still just in the brainstorming phase, but my plan so far is to make a double cutaway acoustic with a neck that runs through as far as the bridge pickup, so you essentially have an electric guitar buried inside an acoustic guitar. It will have electric and acoustic pickups, much like you're describing. No sound holes though - only a player's hole. I'm assuming you're still going to be using an archtop bridge. Will you place a piezo beneath it? What sort of strings will you use? And what are you goals, from a tonal standpoint? I'll be really interested in this project. Hopefully you'll help pave the way for mine. -Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted October 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2008 Well...as I say, I am not sure... Actually...I have a bunch of these things so I could make a few...or others could try it...but post from OZ...I don't know... Anyway...I took the finish off to see what was under there and got a pleasant surprise. It's a nice compact acoustic size...quite a comfortable and well proportioned and the arch is well done with two braces down the centre. The original bridge is a rosewood-ish height adjustable but wooden saddle non-adjustable intonation affair and typically quite high off the board. The original neck tilted back a bit to get that height while this electric neck can sit fretboard height and straight. So...I could shim the neck or tilt it in various ways...or I could mount a strat like bridge or anything in between... I am tempted by the tremolo thing too...but I am a little concerned that the squeak of the springs might get amplified with the piezo bridge thing. I have worked out a way of making a bracket from the neck block to the spring location so they are not pulling on the top...might even create an interesting reverb effect in the thing...hahahha I am thinking of doing something with the headstock to tart it up a little... ... What I was thinking was a guitar that works as an acoustic guitar if fairly quiet...make good practice, in the car on the beach, camping, serenading young ladies in the boudoir...but have a fairly convincing acoustic tone plugged in as well as a nice bluesy/jazzy/rockabilly electric vibe with the mag...or a combination. With the electric neck, you get the feel of the electric and I would probably be going for electric strings 10-46 which I normally use with an unwound third and a similar medium action. I might tune it down to Eb even as I find those keys easier to sing along too...either that or I naturally sing flat! Shame the top isn't plastic too...then I could accompany my warbling in the shower.... ... I am aiming cheap and I kind of like the simple nature of the thing...plus the irony...I am still tempted to transplant the whole three strat pickups knobs and selector in there as if the guitar had been in some kind of weird genetic experiment...hehehe The odd little sound holes are just a little too far from the neck for that I think, I actually think that it could sound really good though with that setup. As a true acoustic...it wont need a sustainer as I expect at any band like volume getting the thing to feedback will not be a problem! pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted October 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2008 Oh yeah...here is possibly a pretty silly idea... I could potentially install a small speaker and battery powered battery amp inside the thing mounted to the back so that you so the sound comes out of the guitar...or is that too weird... pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpm99 Posted October 10, 2008 Report Share Posted October 10, 2008 Oh yeah...here is possibly a pretty silly idea... I could potentially install a small speaker and battery powered battery amp inside the thing mounted to the back so that you so the sound comes out of the guitar...or is that too weird... pete Do you mean for the mag? Like a Danelectro Bacon N Eggs sort of thing? And to satisfy my curiosity, why just one magnetic pickup? Is that to save money, or is there another reason? The Crowdster Plus just has one too (in the bridge position), but I don't understand why. Regardless, I'm sure you'll figure out a bunch of stuff that will help me. Make sure not to stray from your usual prolific writing when it comes to this project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted October 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2008 Yeah...I can make little LM386 circuits that can put out a dirty watt of power and have some 5" speakers lying around...so you could hide that inside the guitar and run both or either the mag and piezo through it... The piezo system I was thinking of using has a chromatic tuner in it and 4 band EQ with sliders and volume control and mounts on the upper side. I was thinking of having the mag with it's own passive volume control and separate output and/or running it into the piezo preamp so you can get a mix between the two. And to satisfy my curiosity, why just one magnetic pickup? Is that to save money, or is there another reason? Well...a lot of jazz guitars have only the single neck pickup. The more mellow neck position would complement the high end zing of piezos and moderate the quack and add body to the sound...more of a hybrid effect. Two many pickups will compromise the acoustic top and the thing looks pretty good without adding holes in it. If it weren't for the hole in the top under where the pickup currently is, I'd go with a complete strat pickup set and bridge...I could still do it but the neck pickup will have to be in the wrong place or I will have to fill holes or something... ... I am not sure if people know JJ Cales old beat up guitar...he had this acoustic thing that had all kinds of pickups (4 or 5) mounted in it...naturally relic-ed...and it was a cool looking machine... This thing is for that kind of bluesy acoustic-y jam thing but with the playability and feel of an electric. Hopefully it will make enough sound as an acoustic for plucking away to myself...but I hope to get a decent sound out of it electrically. The idea is to have something that is fun to play...looks, err unique but not altogether silly...works and can live in the car so I have no excuse when I am out and about not to sit under a tree somewhere and practice a few licks...maybe do a little busking...and summer is coming and I hope to do a bit of camping and hanging out at the beach...so something to keep me company on a those lonely old nights... Plus...I don't think I have ever gone out with a natural blonde Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted October 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2008 OK...here is another idea that I've long wanted to do... I have always wanted to do the kind of things Adrian Legg does with his keith peg banjo tuners...or a simplified version of the hipshot trilogy...EVH's D-tuna is kind of this kind of idea too... It might take a bit of thought and work...might need some inspiration and encouragement... Basically...on a guitar like this, go for a more trad bridge and tailpiece but construct the tailpiece in such a way that each string is attached to a lever that locks down to an adjustable position or up to a set location...some kind of catch mechanism... Anyway...the idea is you tune the guitar to standard tuning but each lever will lower it's string down a half or full step according to the setting of the stop screw... The result would be that you could do tunings like 1> standard 2> drop the low E to D for a dropped D tuning 3> drop the low e and high e for a double dropped D tuning (provides 3 open octave strings) 4> drop the a string to g...giving open g with the above 5> drop the b down to a with 3 for DADGAD (common celtic tuning...think J.page) 6> drop g to f# with 5 combination to get open D tuning You could even use the levers as benders in dropped tunings to bend strings while playing a chord...hehehe All of these could be changed on the fly so you could combine them into a song...or you could quickly change tunings without retuning the guitar... ... This guitar has some potential for this kind of thing as the neck string pull is straight so nut binding is going to be less of a problem...I can use lighter strings than you would on a proper acoustic...and as I can set the neck to any angle for different bridge styles (perhaps a roller thing)...potentially the tailpiece levers would allow enough leverage to bend (or more likely pull) the strings up to pitch without an overly complex system. As the guitar is essentially and electric instrument...adverse affects of such a device on the acoustic qualities would not be a primary concern... ... As for materials...I have found aluminium sections to be easy to work and cheap...and a neat natural silver finish... I would imagine that the tuning stops could be set with a 3mm allan bolt so it releases to the pretuned lower pitches... ... The mechanism will be the hard part...you don't want these levers to stick too far up in the air...but they need to be able to work the strings without a lot of effort... There are various ways in which tension could be added or released...twisting or bending the string...straight pulling on the things...pushing down on the string... The tension of the string itself would provide the spring in the release...so there would be no need for a complicated spring return thing or anything like that... ... To get an idea of how far (or rather little) a string needs to move if pulled...mark a string on a guitar and then tune down a tone...you will see that although you will need to make several turns of a normal tuner...in fact the amount of movement is very small between one pitch and the next (of course the tension is great)... ... Anyway...something I have always wanted to do and thought about it a lot in the past but perhaps this kind of thing has more potential than some of my other attempts any thoughts...ideas...any mechanical genius out there? pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesy Posted October 11, 2008 Report Share Posted October 11, 2008 Hey, I have one of those. I hacked a single coil pickup into it to see how it would sound. I managed to set the original neck up so it is very playable - just a bit thick, as you said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpm99 Posted October 11, 2008 Report Share Posted October 11, 2008 (edited) Bluesy, What sort of electronics do you have in there? Just the single coil, or do you have a piezo too? Pete, The bridge idea is cool. But Adrian Legg is legit. It's one thing to bend using your tuners, but another thing entirely to do it and remain in tune. I looked up JJ Cale's guitar too. Here's a very short, but cool video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BthYuyQs5m0 Have you ever heard of him using it as an acoustic? I'd imagine it would work, but I don't think he really cared about that. -Dave Edited October 11, 2008 by dpm99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted October 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2008 Cool...so how did it sound? Here...have you looked at the inside label of the thing...it says "a word famous" instrument or something...well, yes, famous is a word....hehehehe The finish looks good in the photos (why they put holes where the pickup is I can't say) but it is in fact a paper print and varnished over...Mine was a terrible green colour...but I much prefer the blonde underneath it. I sanded it off and put a coat of varnish on to protect it for now while I work on it. If you are experiencing some rattle on that tailpiece...a bit of foam helps a lot ... So...knowing what I am dealing with here...what do you think I should do with it? How about the multi-tuning idea...or turning it into a strat or something? ... On the mechanisim...I was looking at how vise grips work as far as leverage, catching and adjustment. To shift a tone, a string need only be pulled a couple of mm...but obviously the tension is pretty strong. Perhaps it is over complicating it...but it is something that has always interested me...but some input to make it happen would be appreciated...or put me off the idea so I finish the thing! ... The original neck is not good, the acoustic sound is weak and the back is plastic (but then so is an ovation)...but the body is reasonably well made and proportioned for all that. A 335 is plywood after all, and as a knockabout guitar it's not a bad thing really. The kind of thing you sit on the porch rocking away with... pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesy Posted October 11, 2008 Report Share Posted October 11, 2008 Bluesy, What sort of electronics do you have in there? Just the single coil, or do you have a piezo too? -D Just the single coil. These guitars are super cheap from ebay, brand new. Made in Asia, and you can get them for well under $100, I think I paid about $50 for mine. Not worth spending big money on them, but fun to experiment with. I had to play with the neck angle to get mine playable, but the frets are fairly level and don't buzz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesy Posted October 11, 2008 Report Share Posted October 11, 2008 Cool...so how did it sound? Not bad actually. It has that very acoustic sound that you get from a large full-hollow jazz guitar. I was going to try to fit one of those thin neck mounting humbuckers that you can buy for jazz guitars, but there wasn't enough clearance, hence I hacked in the single coil (there is barely room between the braces to fit it btw), and at least it eliminates those three weird holes. I don't know much about fancy tuning arrangements, but I would think it would be easier to leave the string in a fixed tailpiece, tune it to the lowest note you wanted, then have a mechanism that pressed the string down vertically at a point midway between the tailpiece and the bridge. Mechanical advantage will make it easier to make a mechanism that's strong and accurate enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted October 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2008 I don't know much about fancy tuning arrangements, but I would think it would be easier to leave the string in a fixed tailpiece, tune it to the lowest note you wanted, then have a mechanism that pressed the string down vertically at a point midway between the tailpiece and the bridge. Mechanical advantage will make it easier to make a mechanism that's strong and accurate enough. Yeah...that's a way...it is better to lock it down and tune to the high note then use an adjustable bolt so that the string pushes it to this stop for the low note...unlike pulling on the string though, you need a bit of clearance...notice how far you need to been a string a tone and how much harder it is towards the end of the string (the nut)... It might be possible on this guitar though as you can tilt the neck back to get the height. Not sure if that would work with this strat neck idea though, as the neck is potentially close to the top and would need a fair shim in there to get it back up to the original kind of height...kind of misses the point of the strat neck in some ways... I might do one as a complete jazzbox/strat hybrid though as I foolishly bought a job lot before seeing what they were...still, as you say they are a cheap guitar... I like the idea of making a fake silk purse from a sows ear though...but there are limitations...this thing is never going to be a "great" quality guitar...but it could be a fun guitar to play...and that's what it is all about! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desjay Posted October 11, 2008 Report Share Posted October 11, 2008 Basically...on a guitar like this, go for a more trad bridge and tailpiece but construct the tailpiece in such a way that each string is attached to a lever that locks down to an adjustable position or up to a set location...some kind of catch mechanism... Anyway...the idea is you tune the guitar to standard tuning but each lever will lower it's string down a half or full step according to the setting of the stop screw... The result would be that you could do tunings like 1> standard 2> drop the low E to D for a dropped D tuning 3> drop the low e and high e for a double dropped D tuning (provides 3 open octave strings) 4> drop the a string to g...giving open g with the above 5> drop the b down to a with 3 for DADGAD (common celtic tuning...think J.page) 6> drop g to f# with 5 combination to get open D tuning You could even use the levers as benders in dropped tunings to bend strings while playing a chord...hehehe All of these could be changed on the fly so you could combine them into a song...or you could quickly change tunings without retuning the guitar... pete Are you talking about doing something like this? http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bridges,_tailp...ng_Bridges.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpm99 Posted October 11, 2008 Report Share Posted October 11, 2008 Woah! Somebody already invented it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted October 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2008 Yeah...I mentioned the hipshot trilogy, D-tuna and similar things like Adrian Legg's Keith Pegs. Yes...the idea is not new, there are a number of patents already...I was giving them a little look yesterday (the hipshot seems to be by Baker...) I'd be interested to here from anyone who has used one or got a good idea of the mechanism they used... The trilogy is more complex than I was thinking...each string can be set to 3 pitches and a lot more than a tone if you wanted. Of course intonation and neck flex might cause some problems if you were going to get too extreme with the thing. For a look at what adrian legg does with his if you are not familiar with it... "Cajun Interlude" You Tube Clip this shorter clip shows the possibilities...play a tune without fretting trick... Keith Peg tuners and open tunings My idea is the same kind of thing...each string has two preset tunings... Watching AL though...while a bridge mounted thing like the trilogy gives you different tunings...playing this style while keeping the picking hand going would still not be very possible...maybe I need to have foot pedals...hehehe This is the kind of banjo tuner he uses...these schaller copies are $81 a pair though. There are other problems too...they are a 4:1 ration instead of the 16:1 or so of a normal tuner (that's why it doesn't take a big twist to detune...but very tricky to get in tune!)...the two adjustment screws set the two extremes once in tune... Another idea is the hipshot xtender... This uses a normal tuner but the whole tuner swivels with that lever and stop...$84 each and I am not sure how multiple ones would work anyway...may not be room... Still both of these methods are at the peg head end...the patents show a few other ideas though... Perhaps bending the string by pressing down as bluesy was suggesting is the way to go...basically behind the nut bends but that are lockable to a preset position... ... The trilogy is good for quick changing between different tunings without retuning...but not so much as an inflight performance tool... I have not ever played much in open tunings because it can start to sound the same...as if the tuning is the tune in a lot of cases...but being able to quickly change tunings might make it more of an option and being able to change on the fly opens up some new ideas too... ... Maybe I am being too ambitious on this one! Still...the guitar is a bitsa so there is no harm in experimenting with it... pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted October 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2008 Ok...so thinking a bit more about this... I think the tuning thing is an Ok idea...but perhaps not on this one... I haven't given up on the idea in principle but after seeing Mr Legg again, I realize to do that kind of style, the tuning thing needs to be on the peg end. I have got a few more ideas but it is likely to require a 3+3 design and there is another project I have in mind that might make a decent go at it... ... So...back on this one... What do people think about the idea of transplanting the entire strat electronics bridge and tremolo into this thing? Obviously I would need some kind of hatch in the back to get to the bridge block for stringing...some reinforcement to attach the bridge too...that kind of thing... Still bugs me that the stupid holes for the pickup are not where they need to be to be hidden by a typical strat pickup arrangement. There is still an option of the traditional bridge and tailpiece thing but I am not really sure that is the direction I'd want this to go in... still thinking before I do any irreversible cutting! pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpm99 Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 I was waiting for someone else to say something first, but for what it's worth, I really think you should do it. You've mentioned it several times, and I think it's clearly what you want to do. Besides that, I say the more out there you get, the more you're going to figure out to help with your future builds, and all of ours as well. That's my two cents. -Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted October 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 Thanks...I think you are talking about the tuning thing. I think I have a way to do it on a 3x3 headstock... You would need some bar across the back of the nut to keep the strings in the nut slots...then some cams operated by a lever that pushes the string up between the nut and the tuner. Then, some kind of adjustment screw for the height of the cam, or the throw of the levers. The result would be two preset tunings for each string operated from the headstock allowing the picking hand to be free to play as with Adrian Legg's style and/or quicky adjust between different tunings. Probably not suitable for the 6 in line format however... I will be reassessing the strat pickup thing and bridge idea. The spring claw for the trem springs could be attached to a long bolt for the heel of the guitar body providing adjustment and putting no additional strain on the top... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpm99 Posted October 20, 2008 Report Share Posted October 20, 2008 No, I meant the strat stuff. There are several ways you could go about that bridge idea, but it's kind of a project in itself. Putting strat pickups and a bridge on an archtop may have been done before, but I've never seen it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted October 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 I was looking at this project today... I think I will go with the original strat idea...when checking out the variations possible, I found that the tradional strat pickup placement has these weird sound holes where bluesy put his neck pickup exactly a pickup space closer to the bridge... So, I was thinking of putting three white single coils in the strat spots and a black one next to the neck pickup like a fake HB...I might even find a rwrp about here...that would make 4 single coils in the thing! I'm still a little up in the air about the bridge...whether to do something a little more traditional archtop...or do the whole strat thing. Also on that headstock. I was thinking of routing a curved swish into the bottom edge...the thing reminds ma a little of the old fender starcaster so this might make the headstock look a little less cheap and give back a little maple colour along that edge to go with the blonde top and maple neck... I'm a little edgy about routing this plywood top, might be a job for a drill bit, sharp knife and files... So...still thinking about it...thinking all the time...should do more doing than thinking I know...but only in the doing can you be considered to have committed a crime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesy Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 I was looking at this project today... I think I will go with the original strat idea...when checking out the variations possible, I found that the tradional strat pickup placement has these weird sound holes where bluesy put his neck pickup exactly a pickup space closer to the bridge... Well, for me, the ultimate jazz sound is from one of those little floating neck pickups that strap onto the end of the neck itself. So, close to the neck is good I'm a little edgy about routing this plywood top, might be a job for a drill bit, sharp knife and files... Maybe I shouldn't mention that I attacked mine with an electric jigsaw ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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