Fowl2338 Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 I recently purchased Jackson Dk2S - Sustainiac model. It's a H-S-SU configuartion. When I first got it, I noticed the bridge pup was super weak (Duncan Designed JB). But it wasn't until i started fooling around with it that i noticed a potential (large) problem. Keep in mind it has a 5 way selector. Sustainac (used as neck pup), middle position, bridge/middle, and bridge position--all with sustainer OFF. When you activate the sustainer, it automatically activates the bridge pup. So here's the problem. When the sustainer is ON, it sounds AWESOME. Pinch harmonics really come out, sustains forever, and just sounds super clean/crisp. When it is OFF, however, it is terrible. You cannot hit a pinch harmonic whatsoever--ANYWHERE. So, I was messing around, just hitting random cords, when I noticed that, with the sustainer OFF, I could tell no difference whatsoever in sound/tone when I switched the selector back and forth. The bridge sounds completely the same as the middle (which btw is lowered very low b/c I hate hitting it with the pick). So what I'm thinking is, the wiring is all a'd up so that when the sustainer is OFF, only the midle pickup is on. Because when it is ON, you can really tell a difference, not just in sustain, but sound/tone as well. I don't think the selector is actually activating the bridge pup when sustainer is deactivated. Please tell me what you think is possibly wrong here. Because even if the DD JB is shi**y, I should still be able to tell the bridge is selected and not the middle (which is practically flush with the damn body. Please help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borge Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 tap the pickups with something Iron/steel to see which are selected for each switch pos. more info would be good, Pics and a schem. for a start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donovan Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 tap the pickups with something Iron/steel to see which are selected for each switch pos. more info would be good, Pics and a schem. for a start. May be a tupid question but... is the battery new or has it possibly passed its useful value? Their life is not astronomical in those circuits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borge Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 the sustaniac is active (powered) and apparently working fine, the pickups are passive (unpowered) and are not.... ATM I think the problem lies with the switching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Definitively done something wrong with the wiring there. The JB tends to have a great sound for harmonics and it sounds like the wiring is faulty...it's not an easy thing to do and why sustainiac have registered installers. Sustainiac are also an active system even with the sustainer off as far as I am aware, the switching is I believe electronic through the circuit and it is quite a bit different from your average wiring thing. So...temperamental and you will need to test the pickups as described, but it sounds like you already have identified that the selector isn't working properly. Sustainers affect the whole wiring of the guitar generally and each are a little different, they are not a simple add on like a preamp but a whole of system device. Perhaps of interest with my DIY sustainers, they are not active systems with the sustainer off which is kind of unique...but even there, the bypassing is quite complicated and needs to be sorted to switch the wiring between the sustainer mode with pickups bypassed and the normal passive system with the sustainer switched off. As these things can get complicated, sustainiac have a lot of switching handled on the circuit but the connections are crucial and generally the guitar wont work at all if the battery goes flat. Anyway...make sure everything is done exactly as described by the manufacturer for your type of guitar installation...there are a lot of wires on those things and is very easy to get things out of wack... pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fowl2338 Posted June 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 the sustaniac is active (powered) and apparently working fine, the pickups are passive (unpowered) and are not.... Precisely. Anyway...make sure everything is done exactly as described by the manufacturer for your type of guitar installation...there are a lot of wires on those things and is very easy to get things out of wack... So, what do you suggest I do? I bought it as a floor model (still "new") from a music store. Do you think I should have it sent back up? Or call jackson? I would do it myself, but I don't the know the first thing about electronics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borge Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 take it back, messing with it will probably void your warranty, you shouldn't have to fix a guitar you just bought. have you tapped the pups to see exactly which selections are being made? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donovan Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) Sustainiac are also an active system even with the sustainer off as far as I am aware, the switching is I believe electronic through the circuit and it is quite a bit different from your average wiring thing. Pete's comment was exactly my point. Everyone (including me) knows a JB is passive. The point is the switching may not be passive. This could be your issue, unless of course, you've checked it out and are sure it is not. I would not assume that since the pickups are passive, that the switching is as well. Edited June 18, 2009 by Donovan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fowl2338 Posted June 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 (edited) take it back, messing with it will probably void your warranty, you shouldn't have to fix a guitar you just bought. have you tapped the pups to see exactly which selections are being made? Both the Sustainer and the middle pup have a strong pull. The bridge is very weak, almost no pull at all (but there still is SOMEthing).... So, maybe just a shi**y pup..? edit: Note that the sustainer and the pup also have some pull (maybe just as strong) when tapped even when they are not selected. (not sure if this is normal--please excuse my ignorance). Edited June 19, 2009 by Fowl2338 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donovan Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 take it back, messing with it will probably void your warranty, you shouldn't have to fix a guitar you just bought. have you tapped the pups to see exactly which selections are being made? Both the Sustainer and the middle pup have a strong pull. The bridge is very weak, almost no pull at all (but there still is SOMEthing).... So, maybe just a shi**y pup..? edit: Note that the sustainer and the pup also have some pull (maybe just as strong) when tapped even when they are not selected. (not sure if this is normal--please excuse my ignorance). They are permanent magnets, so yes, they should always have pull. The tap test is to determine if there is sound output. You should be able to tell a difference in volume of sound if the pickup is working vs one that is not. Can you post a pic of what the setup looks like beneath the pickguard? Many of uas have been dying to see a closeup and it may help solve your issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fowl2338 Posted June 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donovan Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Wow, thanks. I must admit, it's messier than I'd have thought for a professional install. Notice many of the wires from the selector switch go right into the preamp PCB... this could be the "active switching" mentioned earlier. Next, go to this page on the Jackson/Sustainiac setup and pick the appropriate drawing, then review all the connections for correct placement, solder joints (fractures, bad wetting), wires for broken strands, etc., and look for any loose or poor crimps. If you have an Ohm meter, check the pots as well. Hopfeully, what you will fins is something visually obvious, else the next step would likely be the assumption the circuit board has a fried/defective component and it's time to bring in to a tech or send it back, as others mentioned. Good luck. That is a very nice guitar. The video demos show it can be very kicka$$ and fun to play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Well...the switching is active and the pickups are passive...however I believe that besides my own DIY versions all sustainers require power to run an internal buffer...so they are not on/off devices like effect boxes. So...even though the JB is a passive pickup it goes through a preamp...as should the middle pickup for that matter. These things are not at all easy...but they are doable with some study. The pics don't really show what is what and what goes where...it is a bit different from other sustainer circuit boards I ahve seen as well...maybe the jackson brand thing. If the sustainer thing is working though...it is likely to be an installation fault...just very hard to trouble shoot such things. A major reason I didn't develop my own sustainer into a kit has always been the difficulty in installation...where I have done such things there have always been some kind of problem that comes up and even having built and tested things myself it can be sooo hard to know what has happened...it only needs to be a small thing...people have enough problems just wiring a guitar without this kind of thing in there. Even very competent repair guys have trouble of course...if it is a sustainic unit...they might be able to direct you to someone who has experience with such things...as most of the install is done...it might not be too much to have it checked out. The DD JB is not much different from the authentic one...i have had both...and the kind of sound you describe with the sustainer on is much like the tone you should expect from it...that why it is so popular. However...often the sustainer does bring all those characteristics out more and the buffer removes any loading as well that only makes it more alive...it is worth persevering with, but i think you will need some experienced help beyond what can be offered here or on line pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fowl2338 Posted June 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 So...even though the JB is a passive pickup it goes through a preamp...as should the middle pickup for that matter. pete So, let's say that the battery is low. So even though the JB is passive, if the batt. is low, it can affect the power/sound of the bridge and mis pup, even thought the sustainer is deactivated? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 Sure...the commercial sustainers preamp the whole guitar as far as I can tell (my DIY sustainers don't but some people have done that as well) which means that you need to have some power in the battery to operate the pickup preamp and the switching system...however it is nothing like the amount of power required to run the sustainer itself. That is why it is vital that you can get to the battery as you will go through a few if you use the sustainer a lot. But that is unlikely a reason for your problems...if the sustainer is working it has plenty of juice. Running a buffer or preamp on a passive signal gives the signal some brilliance and more highs and harmonics generally...it doesn't need to be an EMG system or something. My impression of the sustainiac guitar I have played once was it was pretty good...it sounded pretty much as you would expect for a Jem style guitar and sounded much the same with the sustainer on...however it did need power in either mode. pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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