Allan Davidson Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 Hi pals. o/ Recently, I discovered this page through the indication of some friends, and I was very happy in knowing that I could construct my proper sustainer, since I cannot pay for the original fernandes sustainer. I would very like to know if exists one "step-to-step" guide to construct my sustainer, therefore beyond I don't speak English very well, and this topic is VERY big, and I am not obtaining the information necessary to construct the system. If somebody will be able to help me, would be very grateful. []'s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted November 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 Welcome AllanD... There are some far shorter pages...have a look at things like the tutorial and pictorial threads linked below...the blueteleful project incorporates my personal most recent version. There are a lot of variations... My approach is different again to the fernandes and sustainiac version, though obviously to achieve much the same effect...this long thread is for asking questions (like you have just done) and exploring other ideas, making proposals and helping out as much as possible. The project works and works well, but does take some perseverance and creativity to get it to work well for your application. As such, there is no hard and fast rule as you would find in a circuit for an effect box say...it's less of a do this, plug it in and it sounds like that situation...there seem to be endless variations... There are however some general "rules" that have stood the test of time. Thin coils, 0.2mm wire and good potting of the driver coil seems to be essential. The circuit I promote is a basic amplifier but all care should be taken that this works as clean as possible, and more importantly...as stable as possible. There are a couple of circuits proposed lately, and I have given the specifications to modify the fetzer/ruby (F/R) solution that is something of a default in recent pages to provide this kind of stability. As an alternative, I have my own designed circuit with a range of features and with any luck I will be soldering some up this weekend for sale. This is the same circuit that is used in my telecaster and tested with other guitars and has some added features to the more basic circuit and might help things considerably...as an option! The wiring is color coded (when those guys get some more wire in stock)_and I should be providing some instructions with these also that might make things clearer... Of course, different applications and skills in driver design and construction make a lot of difference... Anyway...check out a few of those threads and any expression of interest in what I might be doing (I am only committed to making the first dozen of these circuits for instance at this stage) and come back with any more questions and details of the project you are proposing for the DIY sustainer... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megadog Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 (edited) Hi. It's been quite a while since I've posted but always reading and learning. A quick question on what type of pickup is best in the bridge position to produce a good sustain. Single coil? Humbucker? or would piezo be best. Also I realize the reason of putting the driver and acting pickups as far away from each other as possible is to prevent possible 'screaming' sounds being produced but is this the case with all pickups like would a humless single coil still produce the scream as a cheap budget coil? And finally if you used a piezo system instead of a bridge magentic pickup as the source for the driver would you be able to have the other magnetic pickups still running no matter how close or would it still scream? Sorry for the rather starnage questions I was just curious. Tom Edited November 21, 2008 by megadog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripthorn Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 Just my two cents regarding a piezo, I think you could use it, but I think you would need a buffer stage between your piezo and your sustainer amplifier simply because of the impedance of the piezo. I don't see why a piezo wouldn't work if you had a buffer stage though. If you had a piezo feeding the driver and then other magnetic pickups, your wiring would probably have to be pretty elaborate because you would want your piezo signal going to the driver, but not any of your magnetic pickup signal to prevent screaming. This would mean that you would have to split your piezo signal prior to sending it to the switch and completely isolating the amplifier/driver circuitry from the the tone and volume controls as well as the pickup selector switch. I'm sure Pete will be along shortly and will overrule anything erroneous I have just said, I just wanted the brain exercise. If you do go through with it, I would be very interested in how it turns out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghendrickson04 Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 It might just be me, but, in my experiments, you should always have a buffer after piezo pickups. It might just be the elements I was using, but they were always really quiet and compressed unless they were buffered. I have a couple schematics of good buffers (or so I thought) if you need one. Pete might know more about this as I seem to recall him working of some stuff with piezo a while back. Anyway, a nice thing is that, if you find a buffer/preamp that runs off a 9v battery, you can use it for the pickups and the sustainer to save physical space in the guitar. Lastly, and I may be oversimplifying things here, but I can't imagine that wiring the piezo pickup to the sustainer would be any different from running it off a magnetic bridge pickup. Maybe a little more complex if you wanted the option of running your sustainer off the piezo or the magnetic (...or both?), but nothing terribly difficult to map out. If you want help figuring out any wiring on this stuff, shoot me a message and we'll brainstorm. I should have a nice block of time free over Thanksgiving weekend before finals come and kick my butt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockTheory Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 psw, Thanks for the reply. - Whichever amp is pictured on that page (http://runoffgroove.com/ruby.html, near the end) is what I built. - I did glue pot, as you instructed. - 30awg = 0.254mm, which is 0.004 bigger than you specify to be the largest to use. It does work but next build will be 32awg, which is 0.2032mm. - Didn't realize the multimeter has a little x1000 on the setting I was using. LOL! - Switching the 220uf cap with a 100uf cap works very well. - Reversing phase still has issues. (With new battery, only lower 2 strings work) After looking at your bobbin-less design, I've decided to give it a go. I have purchased about 5000ft. of 32awg wire to do a lot of testing on driver designs, and I am looking forward to it's arrival. I have a few questions about your bobbin-less driver, though. - What are the measurements on your blade? - What are the measurements on your magnet? (Where would I purchase one?) - What are you using as the base of the driver to secure it to the guitar? I don't have pictures or measurements of my driver as it is wrapped up in Electrical tape and tossed inside my guitar for use this weekend. I will be sure to document my next build with many photos ___________________ megadog, in reply to your question regarding piezo's: I have tried using the summed output of my piezo's as the input to my amp circuit. While it DOES work, the signal was very weak for the higher strings and strong for the lower strings. I'm sure there is a work-around but I'm not sure of what that would be. Hmm, does anyone have suggestions? I've thought for a while that piezo's would be the best way to drive this circuit-- but only if this problem can be overcome. (I am thinking a HPF.. and maybe a more powerful amp.) I will do more research and testing over the weekend. All input is welcome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megadog Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 (edited) Thanks thats really cool info. If you could please post that schematics of that buffer it would be most appreciated The reason i asked is because i was looking at the moog guitar and it occured to me that this may be how they get their sustain system to work. Also I'm not sure but if you wired two drivers in a pair like humbucker coils with one reverse wound to the other could you achieve a muted version of sustain like mentioned on the Moog website. In terms of piezo's would sing something like graphtech ones produce a better result as they claim they are more high quality? Cheers Tom Edited November 21, 2008 by megadog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megadog Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 Hey would something like this be possible to use for the sustain amp or does it need to be more specifically designed for the system? Preamp I just was looking around and came across it and wondered if it was worth pursuing. Sorry if its a stupid question. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripthorn Posted November 22, 2008 Report Share Posted November 22, 2008 One good schematic for a simple piezo preamp is cafe walter's pzp-1. It is easy to make, though I needed to put a larger trimpot in it than the 100k it called for to balance with my magnetic pickups. What I was saying about wiring is to make sure that you don't inadvertently send any signal from your magnetics (closer to the driver) to the sustainer system which means that the piezo signal will need to be buffered and split prior to a switch. Then things should be pretty simple after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megadog Posted November 22, 2008 Report Share Posted November 22, 2008 Thanks for that. The piezo's i was looking at were graphtech ones with an acoustic preamp they make. At this stage its more of a theoretical thing than an actual project but hopefully in the future i can act on these ideas cheers tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted November 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2008 Hmmm...I go away and get drunk for one night...and I come back to see all this activity...great work guys...I can sit back and learn from you! Let's see... RockTheory... Well...that ruby could potentially work...not ideal. If you go back on this thread a few pages you'll see a whole bunch of mods to the more common fetzer ruby that applies to this circuit to to better stablize the LM386 circuit. The fetzer/ruby is the same thing but with more preamp gain My own fireDrive circuit includes all the stability factors, a different kind of buffer/preamp and some basic AGC...as well as a different kind of drive function, LED power and is generally a lot smaller... - 30awg = 0.254mm, which is 0.004 bigger than you specify to be the largest to use. It does work but next build will be 32awg, which is 0.2032mm. hmmm....0.25 is 25% bigger than 0.2...25% is a big percentage. This project is very sensitive to the wire gauge and the driver is the heart of my work...unlike commercial systems. A lot of your symptoms appear to directly relate to what happens when you use the wrong wire gauge...believe me...0.25 not good 0.15 not good, 0.2 good. This has been explained but it did take a lot of trial and error to work out the formula for this particular design and everyone who has not done what I say, and there have been a few...have proven this rule correct, and not paying attention to this...well, wrong! Still, if people want to continue to prove me right...great...please credit the results when they come through! The bobbinless driver really should not be attempted till you can do one with a bobbin. It needs a bobbin of sorts to get the wire on there...the epoxy process is difficult and I spent $100 on different epoxies till I found something suitable...wood glue is fine for stopping internal vibration, but I doubt it can hold the wire on their...it can also be very messy and dangerous...hence I don't put details of how I do it as I don't encourage that kind of thing and expense. I think the tele details are in the tele's own page linked in blue below. The magnets are 4 glued together, the blade is 3mm ordinary steel and the whole thing is stuck to the scratchplate with double sided tape. I used thin wire to get below the scratch plate to the pickup cavity so I wouldn't need to drill any holes in it. ... Mdog... Hey would something like this be possible to use for the sustain amp I actually bought one to see...but it still lacks a preamp buffer to prevent loading and would need some modification in this form...it's still sitting here unused...my fireDrive may be a similar cost... GH and others about piezo's... You will always need buffers or preamps with piezo elements and standard guitar amplifiers...you definitely need them to mix magnetic pickups with piezos because of impedance mismatch... The sustainer circuit always needs a buffer (as on the ruby) or preamp (as in the fetzer part of the F/R) in order to prevent loading of magnetic pickups. Someone did play with the sustainer on an electro acoustic...it will work...if you must...bronze strings may be a problems though! If you guys think that peizo's will help to avoid magnetic coupling with magnetic pickups also on there....you are mistaken. The driver is a high energy magnetic output device...magnetic pickups are sensitive sensors...the two together, like any magnetic devices...will always react to each other. Distance, moderation in output and good efficient design and construction is the key to it working properly at all! Piezo's alone...well maybe, not strictly magnetic are they...so the coupling issue is not so great...however there could be other issues. Theoretically they could work...but if you have mag pickups, use them I would suggest...may as well, they will still be coupling anyway! The Moog thing though is quite a different thing and piezos alone will not produce that effect nor have they done it without a lot of power and off board and elaborate on board electronics. They appear (although no patent or other info exists) to have done the proposal from the original eBow patent really...so we are talking 6 individual drivers probably running from the hex piezo bridge and sensing circuitry so that non played strings are dampened...although there is probably more to it than that even. All the same...you would have to be running six sustainers simultaneously!!!! Better to try and make one that works first! My project is to simplify and make the thing approachable as possible while still giving good performance. Every version, every guitar application will have a different response... I think there was a question in there somewhere about HB and single coil pickups...it can be got to work with any pickup (see sentence above) but low powered pickups are likely to require more preamp boost...On a standard tele...I have found the bass response to be lacking...so maybe it needs a little eq there This is likely to be the big problem with piezos...without eqing they tend to be very bright, and the "acousticyness" is because of the high content of high order harmonics...this is something that is going to make the sustiner work in strange ways...driving the higher order H's over the fundumental perhaps...or too much high end...fixable with eq, but you need the circuitry and design chops to fix it...certainly doable but if the guitar jhas both Mags and Ps, I'd use the bridge Mag. You won't be able to use the neck pickup regardless as it will be way too close...and even mid drivers or pickups have failed...or failed to impress at all! ... Hope that answers a few questions now that I am a little more coherant today...and great to see so many contributions...that is really appreciated...more pics would be good...but it is great to read about others attempts, failings and successes...or general brainstorming...even the questions make one feel wanted and the responses a part of a team! ... Those who don't follow the Misc things about life thread...with candid and often embarrassings writings from various members, occassional stories and wacky lyical attempts by me and too long postings...and last night's drunk posts...over in the off topics section...feel free, and to participate. Many will have had enough of my ramblings here alone I guess... Also...been traveling a little and intend to do so again and as often as possible...in perhaps the worlds smallest "motorhome"...getting out amoungst the wilds of Australia and taking in some of the most beautiful places on earth... I can't resist sharing though...here's two from the road... And here's my home, all of it...on the road from my wish you were here phone message a week or so ago... And this is the view I woke up to one morning out the back hatch of the 'cruiser... ohhh...I want to go back...but unfortunately, I'm back in the city...better get my soldering iron out and make up these circuits I guess... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockTheory Posted November 22, 2008 Report Share Posted November 22, 2008 (edited) psw, I completely understand what you mean about the .25 wire. I tried my first driver with .25 because it was all I had laying around at the time, and for testing purposes it was close enough. If I remember correctly you had said to use .2mm but it should never be thicker than .25mm. I took that as "not the best but it works", lol. My attempt at making a bobbin-less driver (with the same wire I had laying around, just for practice) actually came out pretty nice.. My issue was mainly, "How do I mount this?" - Yours looks as if it has a little plastic base on it. I will have to check out those mods to the F/R amp. Will probably be my next build. -Bri Edit: I'm not sure which mods you're suggesting.. I've gone back quite a bit and saw a few designs but I'm not sure which are correct.. ???? Edited November 22, 2008 by RockTheory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted November 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2008 I don't know if you've seen this, but Moog just came out with this guitar... http://www.moogmusic.com/moogguitar/?secti...roduct_id=21129 Pretty much equipped with a sustainiac * 1000. One thing I like about it a lot is that you can use the harmonic pedal to "pull" harmonics from the guitar. Hello Mike No I haven't seen that, $6,500...hmmm. It doesn't sound like a sustainiac...what is a *1000 anyway. I claims to mute the strings and may work by sampling....hard to tell, if you know more, let me know. Ok...so you have seen the links at the end of this thread. There have been a few pop up from time to time. I am currently not working on this myself but as always, keen others try it so they can add to the "brains trust" of the project. Good of you to persevere to page 7, but really, reading this thread is not a good idea. The more recent stuff maybe, the tutorial type things sure, the storm site is a good one and I know someone is keen to do a blog. I may be doing something myself one day. this guitar I just defretted - should be interesting. Hooray, about time someone tried this! There is an "unfretted forum" BTW, I had a bit there but no takers surprisingly...this would be excellent for such an instrument. I don't want to sound lazy, but I started going through this thread and I can't even figure out what ideas have been tossed out and what the current "best way" is... Is there any "updated" version or step-by-step guide to doing this mod? Unfortunately, not explicitly from me. You will find a tutorial linked below. The original one and the Fetzer/ruby circuit were put forward by G-Mike ages ago, then he disappeared. By default, this is the circuit used. The LM386 is a good power amp for the project and what I use, but I would stick closer to that of the data sheet. If you are keen, and think your up to a bit of circuit design and layout, we could develop something a lot better and easier than the F/R solution incorporating some of what I use and the free DIY layout software...any one else may wish to too! The "pictorial" on making my driver (also linked below) is essential and straight forward. This basic single coil design, built onto a pickup, from a pickup, or as a stand alone driver is still the best way to start in my opinion. If you get bitten by the bug, replace it later with a dual coil or other design of your own! However the circuit is being driven, if you feed magnetically back into the strings the signal coming out of the pickup, that translates to sustain, right? Then, logically, if you feed the signal back in out of phase, that would give a sort of muted feel to the strings as well, si? Niet!~ Sometimes, but in fact, what happens in the reverse phase is you get the harmonic effect. If you think about the way a string vibrates, the main "mode" is the fundumental crossing over at the mid point of vibration (a node). However if you lightly touch the string at this node (the twelfth fret) you get a harmonic...not a muted effect. Similar with the 7th and fifth fret, etc. So, running the thing backwards does mute the fundumental mode of vibration, but still drives the harmonics...the result is the harmonic mode...simple and ingenious....is that understandable? And furthermore, if you were to pass the signal through an all-pass filter and screw with the phase response, you might be able to make a "harmonic" function Yes, and this would be a cool way of doing it...want to try it after you have built one that works. As above, if you "screw around" with the phase response above, you will eventually get to 180 degrees or reverse phase...or the same as a simple phase switch...so same principle... And lastly... If you took the signal from the pickup and fed it back in through a high-pass filter, would that make for a brighter, clearer tone? Perhaps accentuate the harmonics of the guitar? Similarly with a low pass filter, would that give a warmer, Pat Metheny-ish sound to it? These are some directions I see this mod going in, if someone hasn't done them already. Possibly not! Certainly there is a wealth of experimentation that can be done. Also, a sustainer guitar opens up new possibilities for conventional effects use. Tremolos can be used to cut up the sustain to give a sequencer like pulse to a single notes, you could use super long jet like flanging...etc! The intention of the sustainer though is to simply sustain the actual sound of the instrument. You shouldn't "hear" the sound of the sustainer or it's circuitry at all, just the effect of infinite sustain, or the harmonic effect of changing the strings response (dampening the fundamental, etc). However it is a rare device that has not been open to a lot of advanced experimentation, so surprise me...but don't get too carried away until you have the basic thing going, not everything is quite how you may think or be strictly "logical" on face value. Anyway, just some ideas, and if you have any links to any sort of "condensed" version of this thread, I'd appreciate it. I did find this link - LINK. Is this "up-to-date" in terms of how this mod is most effectively approached? Yes, I think Banckia did a great job on this and I am glad I donated the wire. His program DIY Layout Creator comes highly recommended by me for sure. I do have reservations about the circuit and I am a little tired of retelling the mods I suggest mods...so... A thread was recently created by another would be sustainer...LINK - risingforce...from Finland. In this I detail some suggestions like so... For instance, the LM386 Data Sheet LINK, page 5 top right x200 circuit, suggests a 10uF cap between pins 1 and 8 (you can leave the trim pot in by connecting the cap to the trim and the trim to the other pin for adjustable gain) which helps with oscillation, the "zobel network" is the small cap and resistor from pin 5 (your C1 connection) to ground. This is also there to help with stability and in this high gain application, the circuit needs all the help it can get. As for the "Fetzer" J201 part of the circuit, this is not something I am familiar with myself. You may wish to substitute the output cap (your C1) for something smaller, I use a 100uF to get a kind of mixed mode and enhanced harmonics. Basically, I approached the sustainer in a different way to some others and the commercial units. Basically it is a simple amplifier (LM386) and a small preamp to prevent loading and maybe add a little gain. In this way it is simple like an ebow effectively. The unique thing is the thin driver design that, although sometimes debated, I believe gives a sufficiently "fast" response to avoid complicated circuitry and phase compensation. The 0.2mm wire does seem critical too to the success of this. There are problems if you want to run more than a bridge pickup and it won't work anyway with other pickups, so a single pickup guitar is the easiest and best platform for the device. The neck pickup could be modified or replaced with a modified cheap pickup (even a broken one), preferably a single coil type for the easy build, in the same manner as on the storm site you linked. Otherwise, it is the same procedure as my driver on top of a pickup. Ok...so I hope this is of some help, I am not sure what is up with the Moog thing, could be a sampling thing or a lot of hype for a normal or modified sustainer...perhaps I should search the patents again! My advice, make a simple single coil driver version and take it from there, don't get so carried away with fanciful designs and circuits till you actually see the thing working, you are likely to dig a hole for yourself. Similarly don't get sucked into a lot of mojo or more is better. More power is not good, stronger magnets is bad, using a square wave to drive it not been very successful and flawed. Also, a big tip is to accept that this is a DIY thing and a little experimental and limited in it's present form. It will work, and work well...but it is best to build the thing outside of a working guitar and test it by holding the driver above the strings before getting to carried away and wondering later why it doesn't work. Winding the driver is not hard, but it might take a couple of goes...maybe. Test the circuit with a small speaker, if it doesn't work as an amplifier, it is not going to work with a sustainer driver. And...take photos and post often. I am happy to help where I can and one of these days someone will do a great job of this and we will have a bank of material to do a step-by-step guide. Again...on the circuit. I have always disliked the F/R solution and I am sure that people would be glad for a replacement. I have never made this (in fact I can not buy a J201 down here) and my original test circuits have been replaced with a better design that I am keeping for myself, but I would be happy to work with someone to finally kill of the F/R. I think there are falws in it and I know that a lot of people have had trouble. It will work of course and has done, but it was not designed for this application and it has got some weird modes to the data sheet that could make it unstable, with this thing, we want all the help it can get and for the sake of one or two cheap components, I don't see why anyone would have omitted them! The Fetzer thing is also not the best. I don't like the transistor biasing and stuff. The fetzer was designed to emulate the fender preamp stage...we want a clean preamp and an op-amp may be a better solution...but then I am not doing a course in electrical engineering. As I am looking at some financial strain in the near future, I may be offering something low key to give people a big step forward on this project, but really it will always be a little DIY as each guitar and application is a little different. So, enough from me and welcome aboard to PG and the massive sustainer thread, well make 300 pages before you know it! Pete Boy...that did take some work to find! In the above entire quote from back then which touches on some subject I've been asked about lately...you will find some of the mod information (mainly adding caps as per the linked data sheet) and if you press on that little pink arrow it will take you back to those pages. Basically...ROG with their designs have bastardized the recomended operation conditions of for no good reason at all (maybe saves one or two components...personally, I put even more in my circuits...you want these things running happy. The ruby can have these components added into them to help prevent possible oscillation internally. As for the tele drive and others I have made...I am not sure what you mean...plastic bit? The black part is the magnet, the copper part the coil and the blade is stuck on top of that....in a similar place with lots of pics and maybe in the tele thread also...I show a little of how this is made, or at least turned out... hope that helps a little for now...got to run... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockTheory Posted November 22, 2008 Report Share Posted November 22, 2008 Hah! Now I see! Your magnet is longer than your driver and coil, and that's what was throwing me off. With the tests I have run my magnets have been slightly smaller than the blade itself-- So I never gave it any thought.. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjstudios Posted November 24, 2008 Report Share Posted November 24, 2008 Wow PSW!! Those pictures are amazing! Glad there is some more activity here too! I have been really busy with other things, so although I have a solid design concept for the new 'standardized DIY circuit', I have not built one from scratch yet. I added the mods to an existing F/R that I had from a long time ago, and the mods do work, and did vastly improve the circuit. However, the pre-existing circuit that I modded had its share of pre-existing problems that were still present after the mods were installed (bad soldering connections, etc.). But it did work nonetheless, and even through its problems, the mods show promise! Hopefully over Christmas break, I will be able to build one from scratch, test it, and then post the schematic here for use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megadog Posted November 25, 2008 Report Share Posted November 25, 2008 Quick question. I've been scanning the net looking at weird idea for pickups and came across one which was talking about winding mini pickup coils for each string. Could the same be done to the sustain driver and if so what resistance would you wind to and how thick wold the wire be? Just posting but I'm sure i read it here somewhere before but can't remember and i'm a tad lazy to search. Probably n the previous page lol Anyway just pitching my two cents. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted November 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2008 This has been covered a lot and I spent a year on my own hex drivers...but really I have to ask what is the point...unless you have hex pickups to run them individually, if the same effect can be had with a simple single coil..why? All the same...there are any number of variations. If running the individually...you would need 8 ohms each with a conventional amplifier...if running them in series or parallel, there is a formula for working this out...if reversing the magnetic poles between poles then there will be problems with string bending...and what ever way you do it, each coil would have to fit into the space of 1cm between strings and be so close together that they will interact with each other magnetically. Again...it comes back to why...as I say, I personally went down this road for a long time till I was able to pull myself back and ask that question...some of my ideas were clever and innovative...but that isn't enough to make them good or even desirable. At the very least you are looking at 6 times the work...at least...and having to reinvent all the design parameters (it is not enough to simply have a resistance, inductance and things like wire gauge has been shown again recently play a very important role) and to what end? I am afraid it sounds very much like inventing a better mousetrap syndrome...something I suffer from, but from experience is something to be avoided unless there is a very strong motivating reason...very strong...you are talking an incredible amount of time and expense on pure research here...I know, my hex things lasted a year and came to very little... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megadog Posted November 25, 2008 Report Share Posted November 25, 2008 Thanks but I was really only talking theoretically any way and was just running with ideas in my head. So what you are saying is to achieve the full potential of a individual string sustain system you would need to run off something like piezo's. Which in turn means six individual string preamp setups. I can fully see why it is so difficult but it was just an idea that i thought of. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripthorn Posted November 26, 2008 Report Share Posted November 26, 2008 Just a random thought, what about something like the sonus lightwave pickup system with a sustainer . . . I guess the only problem is making your own photosensor pickups. Those with piezos, you would have the most unconventional electric guitar pickup system ever devised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted November 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2008 I think the first 30-40 pages dealt with a lot of it...again it is a matter of why! As far as the moog guitar is concerned, that has a lot more complexity does not work simply by doing this kind of thing...the muting effect can not be got simply by reversing the current...this is how the harmonic effect is created...but it sounds like a powerful magnet possible a direct current with voltage sensors in a hex pickup, as a guess. Again...why...if done properly you will get more than adequate and versatile polyphonic sustain from a normal sustainer and even this simplified design here. If interested in the theory...this is the largest resource available and a lot of speculation has already been covered...perhaps I could speak to earlier posts and work I've done...but a lot more work and fresh ideas would be required than I could offer at this stage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megadog Posted November 26, 2008 Report Share Posted November 26, 2008 Sorry you are right Pete. There isn't really a point to it with the degree of how difficult it would be. The version you have come up with is a working sustain system which can fulfill the task at hand but isn't so tricky and costly that it's impractical. I kind of had this idea in my head and i just needed to voice it. I see now you know the depth and practicallity of this project like the back of your hand and it was silly to keep questioning the same point. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted November 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2008 I'm sorry if I'm a bit tetchy at the moment...under a lot of stress. It is the spirit of this thread to explore any ideas along these lines...even things off topic or only partly related. Far be it from me to stifle people's imagination... So my apologies and please feel free to discuss and play with as many ideas as you like...regardless of what I have done or might think about it. In fact, besides a sustainer, the whole point of this has largely been about following through and sharing ideas even if they prove not to lead anywhere...goodness me, I am the worst for doing that, so who am I t do otherwise. People should know that far more rewarding is the end result of making one of these is the developing of tenaciousness and thinking and doing things to strive for a result...I am not sure if I put that well, but I am sure many others will agree, there is a lot more to being involved in this thread than simply building a sustainer...and the people who regular look in and contribute have all become friends now over many years... So...excuse my comments inspired by self pity...and carry on! pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megadog Posted November 26, 2008 Report Share Posted November 26, 2008 Thanks for that but you didn't need to say that. Your opinion is probably the most important on this topic and thus it should ... sorry lost track of what i was going to say but it was a good thing that i am sure of. Just so you know though the only fact i am into the prospect of building guitars is because of your sustainer thread showing a different 'thing' to do to a guitar. I am just one who is addicted to the extremes of things like he craziest wiring possible no matter how it effects the looks ( trust me i have many over ambitious plans for wiring including one for 800 000 different tones not using a varitone) and the possibility of being the first to do something new to a guitar that gives it an amazing sound. I just want to know how it all works and to be honest this has come from just reading the first few pages of the sustainer thread. Your work along with others on this was what gave me the inspiration to have a go and to get into the swing of guitar building. In no way should you apologize as you have nothing to be sorry for. few what a speech sorry got a tad carried away oh weel Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megadog Posted November 29, 2008 Report Share Posted November 29, 2008 Hey just wondering. Saw a guitar for sale this week with a sustainic installed and whilst looking at the actual driver of the system i saw it had two bars each underneath three strings. Is this just an aesthetics feature or does it serve some practical purpose? Just wondering. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockTheory Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 Hi everyone! I have made a bobbin-less driver and so far it works very well. I over-wound it slightly (about 9.5 ohms) but I didn't care as it's just a test on this design. Future designs will be a strict 8ohms. I have been doing a lot of research on the Moog guitar, and I think I have finally figured out how it works (At least, the damping). There is almost no information on the actual design so it was frustrating with dead end after dead end, but little bits and pieces here and there and now I have the idea.. I will post my results as soon as I find out!! (This may take a bit of work!) In order to continue testing with this new design, I need a better amp. Right now I am still using the Ruby amp and I know this is not a great choice. I don't know which amp to build though. Please link me to schematics! I need it to be very clean (no distortion) yet powerful and loud. Thanks! -Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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