Sustainer Ideas

[psw]

Good luck with the moog thing...I have had a few ideas about it...the damping thing maybe some electromagnet thing...it sounds a little like what happens if you put super strong magnets under the strings...but who really knows...it is not simply reversing the phase of the driver though...you know what that does right!

As for the circuits...look back at all the different propositions...you don't want too much power though...more power always = more EMI. It is a balance between driver efficiency and just enough power. Also...you risk going down the road of the moog and having to plug the thing into a mains transformer. In reality an amp can only produce as much power as the power supply. Anything that uses a battery has only significantly less available power to half the voltage...current is even more of a concern. So...physically it is impossible to make something loud and clean with battery power (unless you want to put a car battery in there!!!)

You also may what to look into what AGC is all about...more power is not enough...the input will overload with the ever increasing string vibration...you actually want something that backs of the power. My design does this fairly basically...col's design does this a lot, but to my ears a little too much and with a fair amount of circuitry.

As my design took three months to design and test and I am hoping to sell the things and have no patents or protection...I can't tell you what my schematic is, or even too much on my approach...even the ones I am prepared to sell, and everyone that has ever left my house...has had it's part numbers filed off and been set in a block of epoxy. Otherwise, the fetzer ruby with modifications described...MRJstudio is working on a design with my input still...scrib had a different version that seemed ok too.

...

megadog...

a lot of sustainers have dual coils...half and half...which is a bit like a p-bass pickup for HB effect to try and counteract EMI effects. Some here including me have tried this kind of thing. There were a lot of people working on this in the thread for a while...you just need to browse through it till you see that part of it...maybe a year back...yes I know...reading and research is a bore...but lots of info on all these things are contained within.

pete

[RockTheory]

psw,

I do understand that it's not as simple as reversing phase of the driver. Like I said, I did a lot of research . There are a few theories I want to work with, but I'm not so sure that it's just an electro-magnet with a constant pull. (However I will still check this method)

As far as the Moog needing to plug in, I did not know of this-- however I have a hunch that it's probably converting the 110vac to something between 9-18vdc- Anything more than that on the cable and it could cause interference with the audio signal.

I have been looking up amp designs but still nothing jumps out at me.. I will continue to look..

ps.

I only use piezos as my output (DIN13, by Graphtech) to a Roland VG-99. Much more convenient, many more sounds.

Thanks,

-Brian

[psw]

Yeah...well the moog is a bit of a mystery...the voltage thing is a bit misunderstood...sure it will be reducing a lot...but the power required to run my little circuit is about 1 watt and that is a lot of current to be drawing from a battery...it is current not voltage that counts really, and that's where mains is going to come in. No one has done it yet...I started...but possibly you could run a stereo lead with remote power, but it jujst doesn't seem practical and also, that much current and any switching is likely to cause problems with a shared ground and running along side a cable.

Anyway...no harm in trying....if I haven't mentioned it lately, everyone should test their circuit and driver by holding the driver over the neck ebow style before they do any modifications or installation stuff...better to fix things out of the guitar.

We have done a whole lot on different types of amps...for sure something like the 2.5 has potential...add a buffer and take out the pot and replace plus switching...you are right, more headroom and loud and clear is the goal. There are a lot of tiny SMD devices that fit the bill and more, but not much in the way of discrete chips other than the old lm386. More power won't compensate for an inefficient driver, you will only get more EMI (squeal)...but the principle of clean headroom is good. To get it though, you will need more current...more current in the coil may well cause it to overheat...see the first post of the thread where 20 years ago or so I tried my first experiment running perhaps 10 watts into a coil and it almost caught fire...definitely enough to pull the strings out of tune. It did sustain a bit, but nothing like as well as these more developed versions in the last five years with perhaps 5% of the power. The LM386 will produce more clean headroom with more current btw...at the moment it is running at it's full capacity at 9 volts but it is struggling to stay clean. Another approach that has been the focus here is develop the driver so that it does not need so much power to produce the effect, creating the clean headroom.

A lot of these smd amps also have eq and compression. Col's forward feed compression was a great idea...mine has a basic AGC. This means that the amp power is reduced or even turned off once the threshold is reached (the string is sustianing) saving power as well and giving more control. These kind of things are a good strategies as you don't get any less distorted than the thing being turned off half the time ;-)

pete

[TheEdge]

I'm back

does anyone could help me finding the newest and correct schematic (with the mods Pete suggested if possible) (no layout needed, just the schematic) for the use with the sust.pickup?

this thread is growing always more so it is hard to find particular things..

thanks

Dimitri

Edited December 21, 2008 by TheEdge

[RockTheory]

Hi Dimitri,

I have been waiting for the same thing as you, lol. Last I heard from mrjstudios was that he is working on one but had to put it on hold during college finals. That was about 2 weeks ago. Sit tight, it will happen sometime soon.. Hopefully..

-Brian

[psw]

Hi guys...kind of missed these posts...must be christmas laziness...which also does account for not actually building up these circuits for sale. The good news is that I was able to get all the parts for the 12 planned...so it is a matter of pulling my finger out. These are the small versions that I use and no schematic is given for...it has some more advanced features like AGC...and cost wise should be reasonable I suspect.

Otherwise, I have not got a reliable schematic program and so draw it up roughly then design direct to the DIY layout creator. I personally am a bit cagey about putting forward these things unless I have personally built and verified that it works...a lot can be missed out that is only obvious when you build them.

I did detail my mods...but perhaps I will find some time to do something if MRJ doesn't beat me to it...otherwise, the fetzer ruby with the mods and additional parts is the default standard...the mods are listed and if you look at the data sheet for the LM386 but substitute a 100uF for the output cap (over the 220) and add the preamp to the front end you should have a reasonable schematic. Another problem I have is that the common J201 is not readily available here and I know various people have had trouble with this transistor and equivalents and different pin outs...as I have a more elaborate circuit, I am not tempted to go back now to these more basic circuits though they can work perfectly well.

Still, as I say I am planning to build these up and aiming at about A$60 a circuit hand built which is a bargain really and with the dollar falling means it will be a lot less by the time you convert it. I suspect postage will be little as they are pretty small and I need to work out a pay pal or similar system for payment perhaps.

For now...only 12 are planned, but it is unlikely that they will go that quick...if I make more will be detirminged by demand but I may need to take a different approach to do any number as they can be a little time consuming and some of the SMD and tantulum components I use can be surprisingly costly

...

Best wishes to all for the season and the new year...been a bit quiet of late, but I do see that people are still looking around and know that I still pay attention with pride to the good work that people put in to this project and the encouragement and interesting discussions over the years...

pete

[Donovan]

Hello PSW and all.

This is my first post to this forum. I have spent the past 2 weeks reading through most of the 279 pages, on a learn as you go type basis, after a chain of mind-blowing experiences that went sort of like this...

Six months ago, while surfing youtube, stumbled across the awe of the Moog guitar. I pondered how the infinite sustain might be achieved and recalled my middle school days and learning how speakers and microphones are very much the same animal and realized the same thing could theoretically be done with pickups. Given the Moog's $6,500 price tag, I then wondered if such a thing could be done for less $$$$$ and began speaking with an R&D tech at my place of employment about this topic, who believs this can be done. So, at that point I made up my mind to take on the project, but first, I wanted to scour for every little bit of knowledge I could find on this topic. A few days later, I stumbled across the sustainiac site and was again wow'd as I was with the Moog guitar. It occured yet again when I saw that Jackson makes one stock in the DK2s. After all, I was in the mindset that there was going to be little or no information on the subject until I luckily stumbled across this forum. I must say that after playing electric guitar for 15 years, regularly buying Guitar World magazine, surfing their website and ultimate-guitar.com, I feel completely ignorant to this world that exists beneath the surface that is you guys and this site... simply amazing!

As I mentioned I have been playing guitar for 15 years and through that time have played with all sorts of effects, but the sustainer has really got me, I WANT ONE! However, I only have $6,499 EXTRA just lying around, so I won't be making that purchase anytime soon... that last $1.00 is hard to come by you know, especially when you support a family... they just always seem to need that last $1.00. Anyway, I do like the sound out of the Jackson, but I am not a shred/metal player, so the rest of that guitar does not really appeal to me. Lastly, the Sustainiac kits are a lot cheaper, but I am not sure I want to go modding up one of my American strats just yet, so here I am. I want to probably do as PSW and the rest of you have done and experiment on a cheapo guitar, although the end result I am looking for is a sustainer in my Fender American Special Mahogany HSS strat, which I swapped out the stock pickups with a Duncan JB in the bridge, Duncan Hot Rails in the middle, and a Duncan Vintage Rails in the Neck. This guitar also runs the Fender S-1 switching system which adds some slight complexity to the system over a standard strat.

I have a background in electronics manufacture, being currently employed at a manufacturer of interior/exterior lighting (electroluminescent, LED, and HID) and power systems for commercial and military aviation applications. I hold ANSI/IPC certifications as an instructor in all areas of electronic manufacture, serving as company technical trainer and soldering/rework and test technical expert. I have been working with through hole and surface mount product in high-volume, high-mix as well as low-volume, high-mix environments. My current evironment does include transformer production and we do have several automated, high speed winding machines. That being said, I know how to build and rework/repair efficiently, explore cleaner, more efficient, cost-effective materials and methods for processing electronic assemblies, and train others to do the work using worldwide, industry standard techniques properly, but this is where my expertise ends. I do not design assemblies and my troubleshooting skills are limited, though rapidly growing as my interest in tese aread has increased in the past few months. Lately I have been learning the how's and why's of simple current-regulating transistor and timer circuits employed in our blinking LED assemblies.

It is my hope that with participation in this thread I might learn a few things to increase my knowledge in my weak areas and be able to contribute in the areas I am strong. I do admire greatly the show of perseverence here. Wow, four + years at this! Congratulations are due!

There we have it. Please excuse the lengthy introduction. I do have a few questions and comments that I did not see addressed previously. Please excuse if I missed them being addressed. I was up at all hours of the night for a few days as I sifted through this thread.

1) For the driver design. has the idea of off-the-shelf SMD inductors such as these been explored for driver design? They can be purchased in a variety of package sizes and values. I know the hex idea has all but died off, but I am thinking part of the reason for this is manufacturing difficulty. I am also thinking of the possibility of chaining them together closely as a singular coil in series or parallel.

2) As magnetics can be reversed, ie. mic to speaker and vice versa, can the same be applied to piezoelectrics? Is it theoretically possible to use an under-saddle piezo as the driver in a sustainer circuit? I recall reading about the experimental implementation of vibrating motors, but have any other sources of creating the string vibration been explored?

3) How similar are your blade/bobbin designs to contemporary blade pickups? Could a standard blade pickup (rewound) be used for the driver? I have not disassembled one, but for instance, my Duncan Vintage Rails... might it be feasible, to remove the cover and wind a separate coil in conjunction with the one that is already there as the driver, thereby having driver and pickup in the same thin package? What if the pickup was completely unwound, then rewound with pickup and driver wires simultaneously (two strand of different thickness and number of turns, but originating from the core)?

4) I have been thinking about Moog's string-damping. I wonder if what they are doing is creating a "magnet full-on" upon sense of string movement. Not amplifying the string signal, but using the string signal as the "magnet on" trigger, then after some timed delay, applying the field as a straight current magnet, sans the signal from the strings. When the trigger sound subsides, the driver turns "magnet off". Would this be an easy experiment to try on one of your current working prototypes?

Thanks for your time and patience.

-Donovan from New Hampshire, USA

Edited December 27, 2008 by Donovan

[psw]

Welcome Donovan...to the sustainer thread and PG...i actually think it is longer than 4 years...but what's a year or too out!

A lot of work I have tried was not fully explored or even mentioned...you are touching into areas that I have tried but rejected.

This is a high current device and also very sensitive to resonant frequencies...the principles are very easy to understand, but the details are where it comes unstuck.

Chip inductors are wound with very fine wires and can't take the power for any significant time and tend to burn out...nor are they cheap and successfully chaining them together is more work than winding a simple coil and in fact often would work out bigger than say the telecaster driver (see the blue link to the thread in the signature).

If you look throught the various patents you will notice that my work is extensively simplified electronically. This was largely as a result of the encouragement of the late Lovekraft (RIP) who sugggested that I concentrate on the driver rather than compensation circuitry. The wire gauge and thin coil desing is simple but very important to this "formula". That is not to say it couldn't work with a different formula, but then the circuitry would have to compensate for the phase differences that my designs seem to have overcome. Of course, more fragile components throw this way out but the bigger problem is that they won't survive the AC currents we are putting through the things.

The moog thing is a completely different kettle of fish and little is really known about this kind of thing...certainly not a retrofit device and there are some significant things that are intrinsic to this guitar and the amount of power it consumes that they are very shy in telling people about (the electronics is massive and there is substantial off board power required).

The dampening thing may well be similar as you suggest, but it would require a lot of power and independant hex pickups and drivers and a lot of power. The drivers with that much power to dampen the strings if not built heavily enough would likely heat up like little bar radiators (see my first post for naive experimentation) yet, there are more problems associated with it...they claim to dampen some strings while others can sustain...now...if you have that strong an electromagnet to dampen the strings, how can the driver work effectively right next to it?

Anyway...it still is a bit of a mystery.

The hex thing died off because a chained driver is effectively a single driver anyway with little benefit and a whole heap of problems. Certainly the tiny ones will instantly fry...but even with clever prevention (and remember you still need magnets which is the bulk of the space)...orienting their internal coils directly at the strings can be difficult, attaching magnets can be difficult...and they can't withstand the power required nor generate enough electromagnetic force to be that effective.

All that...and in the end...you could have wound any number os single 3mm standard driver coils for the same effect. It took a year to get the hex things to work, but in the end it is way more expense and trouble for no real benefit.

Piezo's were also extensively looked into...but these are mechanical (vibration) devices, not magnetic. SOunds good...however, they are designed typically to sense vibration...running them so as to provide the kind of forces required right at the bridge (where there is no string movement) is asking the impossible. Again...to get any appreciable movement you would need a ridiculous amount of power and certain component failure (likely you could get them hot enough to melt the substrates and solder joins to the crystals).

The main problem is that once you are in a mechanical realm...there are enormous difficulties at moving a string mechanically and remaining in phase due to things like momentum. Far more than any piezo or even a motor could provide. Remember that a higher string is vibrating at many thousands of vibrations per second and twice or more in harmonic mode...expecting to do that mechanically is probably out of the question. Certainly, it requires a lot of power, generates an lot of EMI (if done electro magnetically) and again...for the same result as my more straight forward designs!

Rail pickups were explored as an option...but again, messing with the design means a total rethink of the premise that allows it to work. Dual coil designs have worked...but they have significantly less "throw" in my experience. They may have advantages in EMI reduction...but beware...it is exactly this EMI that is making the strings vibrate...reduction sometimes means more power required which means more EMI whcih means...well...you are back where you started!

Also...the wire gauge and thin coil design are crucial...winding a coil to the bottom or as an inner layer with an outer coil will not work! Yes...I have tried...people don't know how far an excessively obsessive I got with this as I did not write up things that were failures (like all the piezo stuff)...the truth is...for about two years I built a new driver almost every 2 days on average of every conceivable thing at a lot of expense...usually at 4am before I would take off for work and the family were sleeping.

I have made several pickup/driver combos...see the pictorial linked in my sig...but I have a proposed production model that has been tested and built to convert conventional strat or stacked pickups to drivers...the driver is invisible and the modification reversible...

SO...sorry...a bit of a random hastily typed post there...happy to try and help a little more...the moog thing for now is probably a mystery...but I did notice that the damping thing can be turned off and I suspect that there is a reason for that. There is a lot that is not said, no technical data only the hype they have put out and no patent information.

My ideas are designed for DIY...some of the more adventurous things I have not publicized because honestly...either they don't work, are dangerous (chemical) or expensive to do and likely will fail if attempted without a lot of practice.

Oh...and a complex S-1 strat may well not be the best or even possible candidate for this device...bypassing all these switches may be possible, but it is a tall order...it is very necessary though.

The best candiadate really is a single pickup guitar...but as you can see I have done it to strats...but there are definite limits.

The best sugestion is to start with what works before heading off into totally different directions to get a feel for the thing. Even if at first not installed and only held above the strings. This is nothing like as easy as a lot of people think. Some of the worst have been electronic engineers. I have tried to get help by a few and always they underestimate the subtly and give up. If it was so easy, it wouldn't have taken me this long and others would have done it well before...also, there would be a far less failure rate and the thread be at best 20 pages...so, it is doable within certain parameters...you will learn a lot you didn't think there was to know...but beware anyone who thinks that it is "easy" based on the basic principles...

pete

[mrjstudios]

Hi guys.

I too have been busy with Christmas festivities and such in this holiday season. I do have the new 'default' circuit for these sustainer projects drawn up, but I have not personally tested it. I know it at least works, because I modded an old F/R I had laying around an hacked this new circuit together using bits of the old one and guts out of other stuff I had on hand. I have only with held the layout thus far because I wanted to test it first, but I have not had the time to build a new one from scratch and install it and test it. For the sake of progress, if there are people on here willing to build and test it and risk perhaps finding some bugs, then I'll put it up. Hey, this forum is a collaborative effort isn't it?

PSW:

I know you wanted to take a look at the layout and squeeze it down once the design was verified. Shall I just post it as-is now so someone else can test it?

[psw]

Sure...post it and we can all troubleshoot it!

...

Donovan may be interested in my nightmare strat...LINK...yes still sitiing here tormenting me since august...

This guitar also features the "ultra thin" sustainer on a JB noiseless neck pickup and a mahognay strat with ridiculous switching, bridge JB DS pickup and possibly a piezo system!!!!

Being a stacked coil pickup it makes a decent invisible platform for the sustainer thing...

...

Meanwhile...I have the components, just lacking the motivation to get it all together, but I am still intended to do the circuits and there is an ouside chance of some limited coil stuff...again, motivation and time permitting...

pete

[mrjstudios]

This is the 'standard' layout of the F/R that has been seen all over the internet, plus the added mods. Yes, the mods are pretty simple, but extremely necessary for the circuit to work well.

I have found that this layout is not a great one. Althought it looks neat, it quickly gets clumsy when you actually try to build it. Also, the parts are layed out in a rather strange way that utilizes 2 separate ground 'busses', which is misleading to the builder -- because in the end all of them have to be connected to battery (-) and the guitar ground.

This is my new layout which does not look neat, and is spread out a little more. To me, it is much easier to look at and understand. I was hoping to have time to refine the circuit, and make the layout smaller, but I haven't been able to do that. So here it is to troubleshoot and mess with.

I know the design works, but I have not been able to build a new one from scratch and see it's full potential (or possibly it's failings). Anybody willing to build and test this design would be greatly appreciated, and hopefully we can settle on a standard, and very solid DIY circuit as the basic unit.

The value of R4 in the second drawing is something I experimented with a lot to try to get more clean power out of the JFET. I also played with the value of R3 a lot, but 1M seems to be the optimum value there (as it is in most vintage and current tube amps). If you have super high output pickups, you may want to increase the value of R4 all the way up to 100K. This attenuates the signal down a bit and can clean up the JFET stage. Lower output pickups may need some help, and you can reduce the value of R4 down to around 33K. I really wouldn't recommend this though, since it can really increase distortion in the JFET, which is not what you want powering the sustainer. The standard R4 is 68K.

I should also note that there should be a protection diode built into the power supply, but I can't find the image file where I have that drawn in. It is a great idea that PSW had. Any small diode would work to protect against batteries being inserted backwards.

[Chip]

Hey there,

I haven't been here for a looong time but decided to drop by as i was wondering whether anyone is building sustainer packages to sell? I did try to make a driver in '07, it was then that I discovered me and electronics do not get along.

[psw]

Hi Chip...hopefully I will have some circuits built for sale, time and motivation permitting...however the driver is still the key to the success of this project. I generally think of the driver construction as an "arts and crafts" project really...it's the part that people who are comfortable with the circuitry shy away from.

The reason this kind of thing hasn't become a fully fledged "product" is that there are already products out there but they can be "expensive" in many people's eyes. These companies have the advantage of mass production and automation to build them. The only reason that this project can be done economically is by the DIY aspect...the amount of time and effort plus R&D that is required means that someone else building it really makes it cost much the same when hand built and no one wants to do the work nor pay for it...catch 22!

So...possibly some limited number of built circuits may be available to those who seek to make a driver and do the installation and such, but an actual "product" does not look like it is going to happen, at least anytime soon!

pete

ps...thanks MRJ for the circuits...basically these are the fetzer ruby with the stabilization mods that I have previously suggested. There is an ERROR in the first circuits harmonic switch wiring that I see (the outs should connect to the arms of the X wire connections on the switch if I am not mistaken...but other wise it seems ok. The second one with two external pots seems a bit much as many have thought that any external pots might be excessive...the first one could use VR2 as an outboard control if wanted. I actually prefer stripboards and do layouts with a different protocol (I avoid hole sharing always) but the first circuit could be so adapted. MRJ if you email me the original file I could edit up such a version from the first circuit to illustrate what I mean and give people another option for that kind of construction.

[TheEdge]

does anyone know if you can get good results with a P90 pickup on the bridge to use with the sustainer?

edit: does exist a schematic for these modified layouts? or just the layouts?

Edited January 1, 2009 by TheEdge

[psw]

does anyone know if you can get good results with a P90 pickup on the bridge to use with the sustainer?

There is no reason why a p-90 wouldn't work. Some of mine have used low powered bridge single coils so it would certainly work. They may be a little sensitive to EMI than an HB so the driver and installation will need to be of a reasonable quality to ensure efficiency...but that should always be the goal.

Every guitar and sustainer seems to have a slightly different sound to the effect, but it would probably sound really good and a typical p-90 has a higher output than something like a strat. You may get a different harmonic response from the grainyness of the p-90, but that would be a cool thing I suspect.

[Donovan]

Donovan may be interested in my nightmare strat...LINK...yes still sitiing here tormenting me since august...

That is interesting Pete. Thanks for the link... the possibilities with your switching scheme sound endless and cheers for taking on such a task. What I have found with my S-1-switched strat is that I only use about 3 of the 9 different settings, while the other 6 I pretty much ignore. I have not delved into the S-1 switching much at all, but since I don't use mosty of it, I think I might mod the funtions if I can get a working sustainer circuit going... which brings me to my less than significant progress update...

I tried what you might call a "naive" experiment based on what I have read here. I disassembled a pair of Harmon Kardon desktop PC speakers I had lying around. I destroyed one of the cones as I investigated its construction. The other, I more carefully dissected. I got it down to the puck with encased magnet and coil, glued the coil to magnet with Elmer's glue-all and wired it to the speaker set's mini amp. I then proceeded to hook it all up in my bedroom, running my guitar signal into and splitting it at my Digitech modelling pedal (bypass mode) into both the PC speaker mini amp and my Fender Hot Rod Deville 2X12 as my main amp. I sat on the floor as I tested the ability of the small coil (maybe 50 turns tops) to sustain, but nothing significant happened until I made the biggest mistake I have made since shooting a handgun with no hearing protection. I mistakenly got too close to the selected pickup and after creating a really BAD, high frequency oscillation, I was within .001 second reduced to a slumping, 50% conscious mess. Though my amp was only at output 2 (of 12), the frequency and sheer volume of the squelch this mishap produced was enough to seriously reduce consciousness!!! I will not do that again!

I located an old American standard neck pickup I had from before switching out my neck and bridge on my 1998 strat... and the pickup has been hiding since '98... I am happy to have located it today! Anyway, I removed its original windings and cleaned the bobbin. Wax dust was everywhere! Have you guys tried using wax as the potting medium for the driver coil? This also reminds me that I wanted to mention the material used for potting coils at my company. It is thinned urethane. When thinned, capillary action allows the urethane to penetrate through all the windings, even when applied after the coil is fully wound.

So I am out on company shutdown until next Monday, glad for the time of but anxious because we haver all the wire to wind my first proper driver there. I am planning on trying (for my 1st attempt) a dual coil - driver in first 3mm of bobbin, followed by pickup winding in lower portion and perhaps over the driver, depending on number of turns when they are flush. I know others have mentioned this in the past. Does this sound like a bad idea? Will let you all know how it goes. I would plan on using this in its final configuration as part-time sustainer and part-time passive pickup, but will worry about the details later. Now, I just want to get the driver built, then begin the pre-amp/amp build. Have you guys tried the most simple transistor amps using only transistors, a few resistors, and input output caps as opposed to these F/R setups? I am wondering if it can be accompishe with a MUCH simplified circuit. Conversely, I really like the results (sound samples) the member Strib got from his seemingly more complex setup this past summer. I found more details and photos on his project at his website... www.strib.fr here.

Happy New Year All!

[psw]

Hello again donovan...what a busy morning on here...

Yes...well the nightmare strat should be a warning to people. Those "uber-switch pots" are ridiculously powerful...effectively and s-1 (which is a 4pdt switch) a push pull as well...and a pot!!! Now, having created one...I immediately make three and mount them all in the same guitar!

The initial idea was sound though in my defense...with one control you can turn the sustainer on and select the bridge pickup from any selection...you can pull up for the harmonic function and twist for the drive amount...all without drilling a hole through the front of the guitar. However, like the hex things perhaps I went too far!

Bringing back the maxim "just because you can do something, does not mean that you actually should!"

Still there you have it...there are some cool things you can do with wirings and such, but any one guitar only really needs a couple or even one great sound...eventually they start to sound the same or ugly...but a few gems are worth it and there are a heap of things on strats that are really cool (all three with the neck out of phase is supposed to be stellar and the bridge/neck is very useful and possibly better than the middle alone...but that's another thread!

Yes...well the squeal is the result of EMI and there is a lot that can be learned from this often repeated experiment. The EMI is though what makes the thing work and drives the strings...what your coil was doing was failing to have the efficiency to drive the strings at a low power and maximum electromagnetic motive force.

Now...that's where my design comes in. The clever part of the thin coil and recipe I developed here is that it can have that efficiency. However, it is reliant on quality and the formula presented. So...that means 0.2mm wire...not 0.15 or 0.25 but 0.2mm...at least for this design. Your average circuit jock will not understand this and so completely underestimate what is required.

Wax potting and polyurethane...yes possibly, if you have a vacuum chamber...but it does not have the filling capacity or safty and cost benefits of wood glue used during the winding process...especially by hand. Normal coils like pickup windings have very fine windings with few gaps of no appreciable size (you would hope) and so readily can use the wick effect or capillary action...not generally the case with these kinds of coils and wire sizes...so I wouldn't bet on it being ideal or a better substitute.

Winding onto a pickup bobbin is a good solution and winding a low powered coil below that is possible (but you will lose a fair amount of space for the pickup winding with a 3mm driver coil in their...probably about 25%...so it will sound unbalanced and have a different probably brighter weaker sound as a pickup.

What is essential is the thin coil at the top of the bobbin...you can't just wind the wire into the core and then wind over it...that is not the formula and does not work (yes I have done that).

Now, I just want to get the driver built, then begin the pre-amp/amp build. Have you guys tried the most simple transistor amps using only transistors, a few resistors, and input output caps as opposed to these F/R setups? I am wondering if it can be accompishe with a MUCH simplified circuit. Conversely, I really like the results (sound samples) the member Strib got from his seemingly more complex setup this past summer.

Oh...I didn't know he had a web site...I'll have to check that out...I hope he credited me!

Strib's circuit was pretty good, I don't like nor have ever built the F/R but really it is much the same thing and all of the circuits put forward (except for cols) are very very simple really. I think you may be mistaking other circuits though which are generally preamps. The LM386 is a complete circuit and will work with only one external component if you wanted to...but not for this project. The preamp is really to prevent loading and perhaps a little more power...but mainly the loading issue. There are other poweramp chips as I think strib used, but it is much of a muchness...they are not common in DIL packs and the LM386 is kind of an industry standard and very easy and cheap to get...much discussion has been had about various alternatives.

Honestly though...this is as simple as a circuit gets...check out the circuitry in the sustainer patents some of which go for three pages of schematic...this is the breakthrough in this project...the driver design and formula makes much of this circuitry obsolete. Also...we are running high gain here and you need stability that you wouldn't need on a low powered little preamp as you find in an active guitar circuit. No circuits are designed nor optimized for this particular kind of application.

The circuit though has very little to do with the results people like strib got. From memory, didn't strib use a dual coil driver or something...nevertheless...the basic design works and is a place to start before people think they know better...the thread has been littered with people who have put in diodes for clipping and all sorts of ideas and failed...only to do what the formula says in the end to get a good result.

...

There are lots of problems with experimenting with the computer speakers and stuff...best really not to waste too much time on such things...you are not going to hack them into a guitar anyway, so the point is kind of as a show of faith that the concept will work. What it should be showing you is why such things wont work...it is simple, but clever...you need to get clever...this is only a coil and an amp, the principle is insanely simple...however, to get it to actualy do what we want it to do, you have to get clever. Lower power, no loading issues and efficient string driving EMF and less EMI...it's all about balance.

Still a good enough plan for a start. People who may be intereested in my circuit should note that it is a direct replacement to any other circuit pretty much...so it could be inserted later if your driver is good.

I guess that is pretty much it...keep working on it, take some pics and post often!

pete

[mrjstudios]

ps...thanks MRJ for the circuits...basically these are the fetzer ruby with the stabilization mods that I have previously suggested. There is an ERROR in the first circuits harmonic switch wiring that I see (the outs should connect to the arms of the X wire connections on the switch if I am not mistaken...but other wise it seems ok. The second one with two external pots seems a bit much as many have thought that any external pots might be excessive...the first one could use VR2 as an outboard control if wanted. I actually prefer stripboards and do layouts with a different protocol (I avoid hole sharing always) but the first circuit could be so adapted. MRJ if you email me the original file I could edit up such a version from the first circuit to illustrate what I mean and give people another option for that kind of construction.

The switch DOES work that way in the first pic. Take a look at it -- it reverses the leads when the switch is thrown, just like alternate wirings.

The external pots may be a bit much, but I want absolute control of the sustainer without having to remove any back covers -- at least until I can test it more. Of course, anyone who wanted the pots on board could put them there -- it will not effect the overall functionality of the sustainer unit to put them either way, so put them where ever you want to.

I'll send you the files Pete.

[psw]

oooppppsss....you know your right...well appear to be...I think it would work like that, you know I have never thought about wiring it another way...nevertheless a small thing and an important contribution...

[mrjstudios]

oooppppsss....you know your right...well appear to be...I think it would work like that, you know I have never thought about wiring it another way...nevertheless a small thing and an important contribution...

No problem

Well, now you guys got me all interested in sustainers again (I never really lost interest -- just didn't have time ). It's too cold to build guitars right now so it looks like I'll be doing some prototyping. I'm building a from-scratch version of the new circuit. Turns out my 2nd drawing of it works out very nicely with a little tweaking and when you lay down caps on the board... And with only a minimal amount of buss wiring too!

I'm ordering the rest of the parts I need from Mouser, so hopefully I'll have it up and running soon. Once I have a working model, I'll post the updated layout and some pics too. If it works really well and my latest driver proves to be a good one, I'll record some video/audio of it in action.

[Donovan]

However, it is reliant on quality and the formula presented. So...that means 0.2mm wire...not 0.15 or 0.25 but 0.2mm...at least for this design. Your average circuit jock will not understand this and so completely underestimate what is required.

I understand that part. Is the "0.2mm" inclusive of the coating? Have you calipered the wire and if so would you mind clarifying? Is it equivalent to 32 AWG?

Oh...I didn't know he had a web site...I'll have to check that out...I hope he credited me!

Well, it is all in French, so I could do nothing more than view the photos!

The preamp is really to prevent loading and perhaps a little more power...but mainly the loading issue.

Would you please point me to an explanation of, or explain the "loading"? I am not familiar with this concept.

I am very anxious for some serious sustain and morphing harmonics. Thanks again for your time.

[Donovan]

I'm ordering the rest of the parts I need from Mouser, so hopefully I'll have it up and running soon.

Are wattage ratings for the resistors important? Voltage ratings for the capacitors? Is there a more specific BOM somewhere? If it is considered bad form to post a BOM with vendor & P/N specifics... might I get one PM'd to me?

Thanks for your time.

[psw]

The wire if specified as 0.2mm will be ok, inclusive or not of the coating as it is pretty thin, both works. As there are many conflicting gauge systems I am reluctant to say, but I think 32 AWG is...but check...that's why I use an actual measurement. What many have not appreciated is that something like 0.25 is actually 25% more than 0.2 and that is a huge percentage though it doesn't seem like much, the same with a gauge lower...there are resonant frequencies and power ratio's to consider that have made, for this particular design and simple circuit, this kind of thing crucial.

As for resistors...1/4 watt is fine, caps vary, the ones I have are small and rated 63v but they vary...basically, we are talking about low voltages from a 9 volt battery, so smaller components are the go. I've never built a F/R but there circuit has a list of parts for the circuit...I actually have to go out to a store, I know old fashioned! Maybe MRJ will have a bit more of an idea about suppliers over there.

French won't stop me...I'll check it out later!

Would you please point me to an explanation of, or explain the "loading"? I am not familiar with this concept.

well...it's been repeated a few times...the reason this thread is so long besides my posts...repeats.

Loading is what happens when you get a mismatch between the input impedance of the circuit and the signal (the guitar) you are trying to feed it. So...on hi-fi and computers and stuff, you will have a line input...this is an input that has already been buffered by the amplification nin an ipod or other device. Similarly with the computer speakers, it is built to take the output buffered and preamped from the sound card. To get any reasonable sound from a guitar plugged into a stereo you will need a preamp or buffer or DI box or something...an effects unit of almost any type will generally provide such an interface because it contains such buffers.

So...in the LM386 we have a power amp and it is built so that it can handle a line input directly into it's input (pins 2 or 3). All the other caps and such are there to set gain (pins 1 and 8)...ROG decided to omit some components that I regard as fairly crucial for our application...caps to filter high frequencies at high gains that can cause internal oscillation (squeal)...so they are there for stability...MRJ has added them back in to the F/R on my suggestion. Otherwise, the LM386 contains a complete amp in there, the rest is just to keep it happy.

Now...before the LM386 is a preamp...in this case a simple single transistor fetzer design...not the best as it distorts a little, but will do. Strib and col used opamps for this which may be better, but ends up a bit bigger...however it doesn't need that pesky bias thing and VR1 to make it happy...hmmm

The fetzer/preamp transistor stage has a little bit of gain but the real reason for this transistor is that it will buffer the input and condition the guitar signal for the LM386 without loading down the signal going to the guitar amplifier and destroying the tone. Probably a false analogy, but if you think about the circuit and the guitar amp having to share the signal, it might give an idea...the guitar amp is only getting a little bit of the signal it would have without the circuit there...hmmm...bad explanation...

Ok...without the buffer there to prevent loading, the circuit and LM386 would effectively put a resistor across the guitar's output as if the guitar were turned down to 2 and lost all it's highs...the transistor stage removes that resistance and so no change to the guitar tone and full power to the LM386 is achieved. How this is accomplished is of no real consequence although we now have a fair consensus that the cleaner the input the better and the fetzer was not really designed to do that (it is supposed to give a 'valve like distortion')...but the main reason for the transistor or preamp phase is to prevent loading effects.

I am very anxious for some serious sustain and morphing harmonics.

Well...take your time to do a reasonable job...test the circuit with a speaker to be sure it is working...get enough wire to do a couple of drivers...you may not be as happy with the first one as you might have hoped. However, with care and preparation it can be done...the pictorial linked in my sig should give you a good idea of what you need to do to wind a coil...have things ready and take some care an you can have a good coil wound by hand (resist the temptation to employ a machine)...test the driver by holding it above the strings before modifying hte guitar or enen worrying about installing the thing.

Be aware that with complex wiring like the S-1 and three pickups, there may be some significant obstacles to getting the two things working together...it may not even be a practical thing to do...but that is something that needs to be looked at on a case by case basis...the difficulty is with the bypassing switching...you need to lift the ground and hot on everything but the bridge pickup when the sustainer is operating, and then add them back in when it is not...tricky!

hope that helps a little

pete

[mrjstudios]

I'm ordering the rest of the parts I need from Mouser, so hopefully I'll have it up and running soon.

Are wattage ratings for the resistors important? Voltage ratings for the capacitors? Is there a more specific BOM somewhere? If it is considered bad form to post a BOM with vendor & P/N specifics... might I get one PM'd to me?

Thanks for your time.

This thing is running at such a low voltage and power consumption that about any component you can find will work in it. Most things in my circuits are rated for 35-50 volts, and resistors are rated at either 1/4 or 1/2 of a watt. The complete bill of materials for the circuit, minus regular hook up wire and the board itself is listed on the layout. It really doesn't matter who made the parts, or their voltage/wattage rating -- except caps need to be able to handle more than 9 volts, and resistors need to be able to handle at least 1/4 of a watt. That's really it.

I would order your parts from Mouser.com. They have a massive selection, but don't let that scare you away. For instance, if you search for "100uF capacitor", you may get 1000+ hits. Simply take a look at a few of the hits, make sure that it is rated for over 9 volts, see if it is radial mount or axial, etc, to find what you are looking for, and pick the one you want. The manufacturer really doesn't matter. There are probably 20+ different versions of essentially the same part, which is why some people aren't sure what to order. But any of them will work in the project. I think you could get EVERYTHING to build just the circuit shown above for about $15. The driver winding wire and supplies cost can vary. I had to buy a $15 roll of magnet wire as a minimum sized-order and I can probably get 20 drivers out of it.

As for the driver, the materials can vary, but one thing I do know is:

.2mm wire = 32AWG (standard or mil-spec)

Edited January 3, 2009 by mrjstudios

[psw]

Thanks...there you go...not necessarily expensive...although, experimenting and tooling up could be...but relatively simple stuff...the cost is in the time and effort...plus, the postage and the switching and post can add up...a good 4pdt toggle can cost maybe $7...but you can worry about that stuff later.

It can get a bit more expensive with even higher spec exotic components as I have started to use...but even then, the real secret is in the driver construction...I can't emphasize that enough.

This is of course the benefits of DIY...there are significant costs in taking the project to the next step and constructing drivers...but I did do a lot of effort in that regard and would resent anyone making plans to use my thin driver ideas for their own personal gain and a little paranoid about it. Still, anyone who tried may be a little put out by the expense and time it really does take and may have to do a little more development.

Anyway...that's a bit of an aside, I can no longer drive to a shop to get 0.2mm wire like I did before but it is out there...buying components and stuff is always a risk and time consuming...when you guys do get it sorted a list may well be a good idea.

pete