psw Posted December 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2006 Added a new demo, this time its a droney distorted harmonics type of thing. Its a bit messy in places, so sorry aobut that, but it does give some idea of what might be possible with a little planning and practice http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=602062 Well, yes...it is a little distorted...but it does bring out the harmonics in various ways that would be useful...it is something one needs to experiment with...be good for soundtrack type stuff and atmospherics... Also demonstrates that it's possible to get a reasonable guitar sound through pc/headphones with just a few diy devices and some midrange pc audio recording software. It is certainly a loud sound that you wouldn't expect through headphones, an ideal studio tool... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted December 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2006 You know...a little while back Tim/onelastgoodbye made a prediction that by page 150 we'd have this thing licked...guess he didn't count on the number and length on my posts but every day, things get a little closer... A 2x3cm SMD circuit is staggeringly small for what col's is offering and significanly smaller than all the commercial systems to date. On that clip I seemed to detect some more "polyphonic" sustain and favouring of the middle strings in some modes...mine always favours the lower notes (not such a bad thing) but an interesting thing all the same... Anyway...so house hunting again, the whole thing is making me sick but one must carry on...bit of a struggle... getting hot down here too, (37oC) and the bush fires are upon us... So...I took a screwdriver to my new squier fat strat trans honey mahognay half price wonder. Squiers always seem to be getting a bad rap...the student models are bad...but this one is impressive, lets look inside... Well, check that out, they have put shielding paint in the cavity and a foil backing on the cover...that is my first guitar that I have like this (normally all my wiring is shielded cable. The HB has a 4 conductor sheilded cable for splits and stuff which is neat. There is a mess of excess wires in there though...hmmm On top you can see how the pickups are top mounted and would allow for easy experimentation in lots of ways... Circuits, pickups drivers...etc... Ok, so a 9 volt battery will fit in the control cavity with enough room for a fetzer/ruby style amp. Perhaps a cavity shaped board could accomodate cols circuit at a pinch (maybe if splt somewhere and overlapped). There is not enough depth on this guitar to fit a battery between the springs but I know most strats would allow this...with a trem blocked off and springs removed, most strats whould have room for col's circuit and the battery I suspect (I think the trem is pretty important for sustainer guitar technique, at least for me). An interesting possible place with a little modification, at least on this guitar is behind the bridge in the cavity. This could take a 9v on its side if the wood, almost to the edge of the cover was removed (with a router) just behind the trem block. There is plenty of movement there for deep bends still and would make an easy option with very little modification for easy access to the battery on any strat type... I guess a super switch could have a sustainer option as one of the selector switch controls. You could have a single switch and rotary kind of like col's on this guitar (if bypassing of pickups is necessary) or if a simple on switch would be required you could use a push pull pot and the rotary (a push pull rotary would be cool)... So this guitar is not looking too bad as a test bed for a lot of ideas...circuits can be tweaked from the back while the guitar is still in a fairly playable condition, pickups and driver's swapped in easily from the front. I notice too that these pickups have quite prominant alnico staggered poles. Makes me wonder if the couldn't all be pushed up flat and a coil made on Tim's epoxy jig couldnt be made to slip over them and the cover replaced to hold it all together for a reversable-mod pickup/driver device similar to that curtis and I use. It certainly would look and function much like the original pickup (but don't try this with traditional fender construced coils where the coils are actually wrapped around the magnets (no bobbins)...) One problem that occured to me with Bancka's pickup conversion is excessive magnet strength... Thes alnico rods are pretty powerful and the coil needs to be set pretty close to the strings. The permanent magnets may be inhibiting sustain so perhaps they need to be pushed down fairly flat to the bobbin top to allow closer adjustment of the device to the strings...Just a thought, all my experiments were with blade styles and ceramic (someines neo) magnets below... Anyway...enough from me...time to sleep... pete PS...I'd like to hear your mode control in a cleaner setting col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted December 8, 2006 Report Share Posted December 8, 2006 You know...a little while back Tim/onelastgoodbye made a prediction that by page 150 we'd have this thing licked...guess he didn't count on the number and length on my posts but every day, things get a little closer... For me I think its pretty much done - Some small sweaking still to do... also I have to wait and see how the battery consumption goes - may be forced into more development on that side of things. Unfortunately, I don't think its going to be possible to get a middle position driver running with a combination of: same drive level + same fizz free clean tones + applicability to different pickup/guitar setups. UNLESS a completely different tech is used. Right now I don't have the energy for that not to mention that all my initial requirements have been fulfilled in my current install (assuming battery is OK) (A more likely solution I feel will be a driver/pickup combo at bridge and neck, so you can use neck pickup with bridge driver or vice verca.) A 2x3cm SMD circuit is staggeringly small for what col's is offering and significanly smaller than all the commercial systems to date. On that clip I seemed to detect some more "polyphonic" sustain and favouring of the middle strings in some modes...mine always favours the lower notes (not such a bad thing) but an interesting thing all the same... The polyphonic feel to some of it is probably mixed mode 2 - this has 'full harmonic mode' type high pitched stuff on the higher notes, but leaves the low notes in fundamental mode... so if you're careful, you can get both low and high symultaneously. The notes being accented could just be the guitar/pickup/strings natural resonance - maybe because your last test guitar was a cheapo, it didn't have such a good response to the mid and high part of the guitars range. I know my guitar really accents the midrange - great for crunchy rock tones... but it meant that the D and G are stronger than the rest. So...I took a screwdriver to my new squier fat strat trans honey mahognay half price wonder..... Ok, so a 9 volt battery will fit in the control cavity with enough room for a fetzer/ruby style amp. Perhaps a cavity shaped board could accomodate cols circuit at a pinch... That was my initial thought - it would be tight, but a layout tweaked for a custom shaped board should allow you to get all the circuitry in there - just have to find a home for the battery. What is the depth of the cavity? PS...I'd like to hear your mode control in a cleaner setting col ... Well, yes...it is a little distorted... True. Problem for me right now is that I have a choice of completely clean sound or 'thunderchief' which is an emulation of a marshal stack with all knobs on 10.... so there is no middle ground crunch or dirty blues sort of thing. I have my eye on the ROG 'Supreaux' which should give a nice range of sounds, so if I get around to that, I'll post more examples I was doing some atmospheric stuff with a clean tone and some nice delay - it was sounding good - you can get some great full chorused type sounds with long sustain, delay and very slow vibrato... unfortunately my PC crashed before I had a chance(got around to) to save my recordings It would be nice on a strat with AC30 and plenty reverb - Hank Marvin type of sound but with sustainer... hehe... TWANGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG (to infinity and beyond) Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted December 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2006 Unfortunately, I don't think its going to be possible to get a middle position driver running with a combination of: same drive level + same fizz free clean tones + applicability to different pickup/guitar setups. UNLESS a completely different tech is used. Right now I don't have the energy for that wink.gif not to mention that all my initial requirements have been fulfilled in my current install (assuming battery is OK) (A more likely solution I feel will be a driver/pickup combo at bridge and neck, so you can use neck pickup with bridge driver or vice verca.) Yes...I think the mid driver is possible, but is it worth the energy and is it going to be more versitile and useful... Coming this far is a remarkable achievement in itself, an improved circuit and driver design. Intergrating this into a single coil guitar will be a task for me and others to test...perhaps it would slot straight into my sustainer strat, no shortage of room in there You have also come up with new functionality with the rotarty control. I could see the susainer system being selected as one position on a superswitch five way and one tone being dedicated to this rotary control with a neck pickup for a very neat no-to-low mod install...or two knobs of a LP style to sustainer control perhaps. In that regard, perhaps we have met almost all the requirements (except shrinking the board) that we were seeking for the device and surpassing most DIY expectations for such a thing. Inprovements will most likely come about from people building the thing now and making the required adaptions to each individual guitar... It would be nice on a strat with AC30 and plenty reverb - Hank Marvin type of sound but with sustainer... hehe... TWANGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG (to infinity and beyond) Absolutely...I can hear the Shadows "wonderful land" sustaining into harmonics as I type... Good work...and fantastic progress in a very short length of time...perhaps Tim was right, 150 pages was all it would take! pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zfrittz6 Posted December 9, 2006 Report Share Posted December 9, 2006 Col, I have made your circuit in smd, but I have a problem instead of lm 358 I have put tl072, because nontapeworm the 358, and does not have sufficient power to maintain in many notes, not if sera east the problem, you think that deberia to work with tl072 or tendre that to modify something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted December 9, 2006 Report Share Posted December 9, 2006 (edited) Col, I have made your circuit in smd, but I have a problem instead of lm 358 I have put tl072, because nontapeworm the 358, and does not have sufficient power to maintain in many notes, not if sera east the problem, you think that deberia to work with tl072 or tendre that to modify something? I'm not sure about the tl072, it's a Fet input op-amp, but it _should_ work ? (I'll try it in the simulation) EDIT: I switched the LM358 for a tl072 in the sim and it was fine as expected - I can't see why it would make any difference in practice either ............................... Have you checked and double-checked your board layout, component values and soldering? EDIT: eg. In your layout there is a jumper lead reqired between R12 & R26 and +9v - easy to forget this type of thing, and the circuit might work a bit... I can't find C9 on your layout either - without this cap between the supply rails you could get some strange behaviour. fwiw, I'm finding it quite difficult to read the pcb layout - it's not easy to see which component number is for which component.... very confusing and easy to make a mistake... Does your driver work ok just using the fetzer ruby? Do you have the driver close enough to the strings? It must be as close as possible, just enough space so that the strings don't touch the driver when holding a note at the highest fret Have you tried different j201 transistors? (JFETs are very variable devices and my circuit is not specifically designed to cope with the full range of tolerances... I tested it with a couple of different fets and both worked fine.) Have you tried all 4 combinations of the two trim pots at their extremities? What kind of pickup are you using? my pickup is a high output one, maybe you will need to increase the gain of the first stage... try tweaking the value of R5 (2.4k) Just in case, I will check over your pcb to see if I can spot any errors. Thanks for building the circuit - we need to get yours working in order to find and weaknesses in the design to make it work better with different setups. cheers Col Edited December 9, 2006 by col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted December 9, 2006 Report Share Posted December 9, 2006 (edited) Zfrittz, I think I have found a possible error in the pcb. Assuming that the component numbers are the same as in my stripboard layout. R27 should connect only to the track of Pin5(IC1) and to the b1 external mode switch connection - not the pin6(IC1) track. R29 should connect only to the track of Pin5(IC1) and to C8 and the c1 external switch connection - not to the pin7(IC1) track. I can see how you might have missed this reading from the strip board layout - the 'cut track' symbols are barely visible under the resistors - thats why I said how many there were. (there is one under R29 and two under R19. It might be worth printing out the stripboard layout and marking the partially hidden ones with a pen - make sure there are 38 track cuts - if you can't find 38, look again and refer to the schematic... I'll keep checking to see if I can find any more problems... EDIT: can't find anything else obvious... I think that if you cut those two erroneous track sections, it might fix things. The way you have it connected(going by the pic you posted) R27 and R29 will be screwing up the opamp that rectifies the control signal for the AGC Col Edited December 9, 2006 by col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted December 10, 2006 Report Share Posted December 10, 2006 I uploaded another demo Kind of atmospheric thing. This one is interesting because the battery was fairly flat - reading just under 7v. It will be interesting to see what difference a fresh one makes. Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zfrittz6 Posted December 10, 2006 Report Share Posted December 10, 2006 (edited) Col, I finish verifying that the bridge between +9 r-12 and r 26 and this fact. c-9 I have like c-1 and this position. my conductor works well with fetzer. fets is where I have the doubt when not finding j-201 I have position k246 that according to where it buys it is equivalent. The harvesting is one evo2 proevolution of dimarzio and has a high exit. r-27 if this connected to the Pin5 of (IC1) and with the external connection of the way switch b1. But in my disposition of the drawing they estan superposed the names since eagle puts them automatically. that is to say, upon r-29 it puts r-27 and upon r-27 it puts r-29. in my drawing there are some different names, to see if I correct with respect to your scheme corregire and I put it. Also I have bypassed r-31 of 12k and now this working better, but still him lack a little power mainly in low notes in the cords to the air mainly, in the high frets from 5º to the 24 enough good. Thanks for everything and to see if we obtained that it is envy it of the patents. (Col, I finish verifying that indeed the problem is that habia seen the cuts underneath r-19 and r-29 as soon as does not prove it I comment to you, but I am convinced that he has been that.) Edited December 10, 2006 by zfrittz6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted December 10, 2006 Report Share Posted December 10, 2006 (Col, I finish verifying that indeed the problem is that habia seen the cuts underneath r-19 and r-29 as soon as does not prove it I comment to you, but I am convinced that he has been that.) I hope this fixes it Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onelastgoodbye Posted December 10, 2006 Report Share Posted December 10, 2006 See I told you guys it'd be finished by page 150 I've finally been able to test my super-thin rail driver with a new lm386 (fried the previous one) and it works a treat. Good performance on all notes, and the humbucking feature really makes it a lot more controllable than my previous single coil drivers. I'm using the little gem amp, fed by the (internally preamped) signal from an emg. The 386 is at max gain (200) with the volume halfway. Will try and see how far I can get that gain down in the next days or so. The fuzz is still clearly there, I'm now pretty sure that it's the signal from the little gem bleeding through. Bear in mind this is an active pickup and I'm not using a separate preamp, so there's probably lots of issues with loading and batteries etc. Plus you can hear the driver generating the exact same sound (effectively working as a speaker) when I turn it's volume up. My cores just slide into the coils and are thus not permanently fixed (yet), so the coils are actually moving up and down under influence of the EMF. There's probably a considerable loss of efficiency for just that reason, but I'm not gonna glue the cores down yet, as having (re)movable cores allows me to experiment with a few things: By sliding the (laminated iron) cores up and down the coils, I've found that the distance of the cores to the strings has far greater effect on it's efficiency than the distance of the coils to the strings. If the cores are further away from the strings, there's a definite loss in power. If the cores stay in the same position, but the coils are moved back, there's little to no difference. Some furter testing is needed to verify how the proximity of the magnet to the strings comes into play. Now this is interesting... I can use the driver in the mid position AND it seems to work a lot better here, much much stronger signal. At least as long as there's a note going. When the strings are muted, the driver is much more prone to squaling. Psw referred to this back in hex driver-time, I think, but it's as if the driver signal is piggy-backing on the microphonic feedback between the driver and the pickup, and so, beefs up the signal. Maybe something that can be used? I need to get rid of the little gem coming through first, though, so I'm gonna build col's circuit once I get the parts saturday-ish (grrr...electronics stores) and see what gives. Say Col, seems you've made a bobbinless driver too, how'd that go? Tim (not posting but always lurking) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted December 10, 2006 Report Share Posted December 10, 2006 (edited) See I told you guys it'd be finished by page 150 I've finally been able to test my super-thin rail driver with a new lm386 (fried the previous one) and it works a treat. Good performance on all notes, and the humbucking feature really makes it a lot more controllable than my previous single coil drivers. I'm using the little gem amp, fed by the (internally preamped) signal from an emg. The 386 is at max gain (200) with the volume halfway. Will try and see how far I can get that gain down in the next days or so. Thats good news. The EMI bucking does work well doesn't it. I'm surprised you need anywhere near that much gain though - both my circuits have worked well with the LM386 at minimum gain (20). The fuzz is still clearly there, I'm now pretty sure that it's the signal from the little gem bleeding through. Bear in mind this is an active pickup and I'm not using a separate preamp, so there's probably lots of issues with loading and batteries etc. Plus you can hear the driver generating the exact same sound (effectively working as a speaker) when I turn it's volume up. My cores just slide into the coils and are thus not permanently fixed (yet), so the coils are actually moving up and down under influence of the EMF. One good way to dramatically reduce the fizz is to reduce the gain - you want it as near to clipping as possible without actually clipping (was it primal who originally pointed this out?). EDIT yes is was - we discussed this issue on page 107 That (not-so-subtle) fuzz is the problem I had. I cleared it up by turning the gain down on the LM386 chip. That is the distortion I was speaking of, which is why I find it hard to beleive that psw has had such success with using a distorted signal to drive the strings. I think that is why my latest circuit is quite clean - because the AGC produces very little distortion (thats why I went for a slightly more complicated FET implementation). So the signal that crosses via parasitic coupling is the same as the desired signal and is therefor masked. Unfortunately this effect fails as you bring the driver close to the middle position, I guess its because the driver/pickup parasitic transformer effect takes the parasitic signal into the clipping zone... There's probably a considerable loss of efficiency for just that reason, but I'm not gonna glue the cores down yet, as having (re)movable cores allows me to experiment with a few things: By sliding the (laminated iron) cores up and down the coils, I've found that the distance of the cores to the strings has far greater effect on it's efficiency than the distance of the coils to the strings. If the cores are further away from the strings, there's a definite loss in power. If the cores stay in the same position, but the coils are moved back, there's little to no difference. Some furter testing is needed to verify how the proximity of the magnet to the strings comes into play. Very interesting - I wonder to what extent this is a feature of the dual coil driver? certainly, the proximity of the driver to the strings becomes more significant with a dual driver because the magnetic flux is far more constrained. Now this is interesting... I can use the driver in the mid position AND it seems to work a lot better here, much much stronger signal. At least as long as there's a note going. When the strings are muted, the driver is much more prone to squaling. Psw referred to this back in hex driver-time, I think, but it's as if the driver signal is piggy-backing on the microphonic feedback between the driver and the pickup, and so, beefs up the signal. Maybe something that can be used? I think fizz will be a major issue - I think the only way to get a mid position driver with no fizz is some serious new tech, or significat refinement of our existing designs... e.g. more work on driver and circuit efficiency, more work on different shielding options... It may be that with offboard power and a higher voltage system, we can get around the clipping that causes the fizz, but it's impossible to know for sure without building it... any takers? ;p I need to get rid of the little gem coming through first, though, so I'm gonna build col's circuit once I get the parts saturday-ish (grrr...electronics stores) and see what gives. My circuit is set up to give a good level of drive without distorting the drive signal, so you should get very little fizz. For me, the fizz came back when I put the driver in the middle position, but you may have better luck if you driver is more compact and more efficient... good luck with that. Say Col, seems you've made a bobbinless driver too, how'd that go? Yep, I did that a while back - when we both decided to try a dual core driver - that was my one. I used bobbin ends tacked to the core with super glue, lined with clingfilm, then after winding and setting, I just pulled the bobbin ends off - fortunately, it worked first time. The coil could have been neater, but I didn't have a jig for pressing in the sides, just a stick for manual poking... Wouldn't have made a difference anyway because the magnet I'm using is from a standard humbucker, so thats the width of the core gap - plenty of room even for my saggy coils. I used slower drying epoxy for potting - gives you more than an hour to work with, but then needs at least 24 hours to cure... The slow drying stuff is also less nasty if you get it on your skin - slower reaction means less damage if you wash it off quick(I still used disposable gloves though). If at some point I get my hands on a slimline dual rail pickup magnet, I'll probably build a more compact driver. Right now I'm taking a break and waiting for a few folks to build my circuit to see how well it works on different setups, and hopefully refine it further. Fingers crossed zfrittz6 gets his build debugged - a 3cmx2cm smd version sure sound nice Col Edited December 10, 2006 by col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
custom22 Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 Sorry to interupt all of this profound progresssion, but i have a question. I have a cheap humbucker in the neck position, and i plan on scrapping one of the coils for the driver, and using the other coil as the neck pickup. Could i use the same magnet for both operations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted December 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 See I told you guys it'd be finished by page 150 Yes, you did...you are very talented! Hi Tim...hope all is well and glad to hear your lurking still... Col...has it been almost 50 pages that you have been with us? Fantastic progress on the circuitry that badly needed attention. Perhaps as influencial in the end as the thin driver idea itself... Custom22... This is very much what Primal did with his Epi Les paul and if he is about, could advise you more. His worked out ok...however. He did not use the other coil as a pickup in the end. A half/split humbucker makes a poor single coil...lacks power and balance with the other pickup. You could get a rail pickup in there with a dirver opposite like sustainiac does perhaps. Best bet would, like Primal (and col's guitar) just have the bridge pickup and convert the HB...saves all the complications of bypassing that neck pickup for sustaining operation. An alternative is to some how build on top of a conventional HB. I did something like this with my "sustain box" (see the sound page) on my Les Paul to test it out. It is possible perhaps to convert a HB into a bilateral driver with significant modifications. But, for the very basic sustainer, Primal has shown that the F/R amp and HB bobbin driver combination will work and provide a low mod sustainer... 3x2cm is amazing and certainly much smaller than a fernandes or sustainiac circuit. I would hold off on any production of such a device and not be aiming at SMD at all on this design. I am sure there will be more tweaks and different things for different guitars. Curtis may think of another way of developing Col's principles and then there are all kinds of posibilities with different amp chips over the old lm386...especially if you were going to go SMD. I realize that circuits like col's can be made small, that isn't the issue...the issue for me is how could anyone justify the expense of making a one off circuit like this...surely that can't be cheap? On the other hand, small runs of SMD may well be possible in the future if developed sufficiently as at some point it is cheaper to have assembled boards made than it is to have printed circuit boards made drilled and to buy the components and to solder them all together... Fully researching this would only really be practical when it is clearer that the circuit is versitile enough for enough interested people. The beauty of this thread has been all the input from so many people and that people are actively working and suggesting and building these things. Much more fun and productive than trying to work on it in isolation, as is the traditional way. Tim... My cores just slide into the coils and are thus not permanently fixed (yet), so the coils are actually moving up and down under influence of the EMF...There's probably a considerable loss of efficiency for just that reason I am amazed that it works that well in that condition. Such movement can actually produce signals...fixing them will help a lot. But...important information is already being revealed that I wanted to test out by your method, such as...If the cores are further away from the strings, there's a definite loss in power. If the cores stay in the same position, but the coils are moved back, there's little to no difference. Col... The coil could have been neater, but I didn't have a jig for pressing in the sides, just a stick for manual poking... Wouldn't have made a difference anyway because the magnet I'm using is from a standard humbucker, so thats the width of the core gap - plenty of room even for my saggy coils. This is true but Tim's neat coils will be more efficient and so less prone to EMI. I suspect that my SC driver is a lot more compacted(?) than some peoples (probably due to making these things so often) and why it may work better than others, (perhaps curtisa's too)... Tim... Now this is interesting... I can use the driver in the mid position AND it seems to work a lot better here, much much stronger signal. At least as long as there's a note going. When the strings are muted, the driver is much more prone to squaling. Psw referred to this back in hex driver-time, I think, but it's as if the driver signal is piggy-backing on the microphonic feedback between the driver and the pickup, and so, beefs up the signal. Maybe something that can be used? I think I coined some phrase like parasitic feedback or something. I did have a driver design that tried to exploit this phenomena, even so far as making the source and driver together into one unit (kind of stacked in a weird "hex" way)...but I fear we are dealing with forces we don't quite understand. The earliest test clips of these sounds were not appreciated as the distortion produced was a bit nasty... Perhaps it could be used but with very low impedance pickup drivers or something as the signal will be magnetically coupled between the driver and pickup as in a transformer. The result is a massive signal boost, even as it produces sustain and then massive fizz and noise as soon as no signal (from the string is present). How exactly it could be used is open for conjecture but I fear we would have to redesign both pickups and drivers to make use of it in a practical sense...interesting to think about, it certainly is a powerful phenomena, but I don't think that following it too far will be rewarding...why...cause I did and was very disappointed...still... Anyway...I guess in many ways we have reached another resting point in the thread and it is time for people to step up and make some of these things. Curtis is gigging with his basic sustainer, col has a working dual coil and AGC circuit scheme going and I have my faithful old strat thing still running after a few years now it seems. We all have a lot in our lives to think about, and it may be a little while till I develop things further, but I am sure I will be looking further into ideas that have been raised in recent months and putting them into practice...meanwhile, I too will be looking for others to build variations of the ideas put forward here for inspiration... By the stats on this thread, anyone who attempts this will be sure of both encouragement and a very interested lurking audience of well wishes and interested folk. Any of you out there wishing to make your presence felt, you are more than welcome...remember, PG is free if you have not joined up yet (many visitors I know are guests) please do so as being a part of this community, even as an onlooker, is a rewarding experience. Also, there is no obligation to donate, but I should put a pitch in to do so if you are so inclined. I have put in a small donation in the past and although at present I have to watch the pennies, I should use this post to encourage people to do so. Without the facilities and bandwidth that PG provides, there would not be a thread or a working sustainer...certainly nothing you could read about... So, although my next donation may be a little way off, feel free to tell brian that I sent you... ... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zfrittz6 Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 Hello, or I have corrected the errors that tapeworm and the circuit works perfectly in smd, Col, when proving the circuit with a loudspeaker you have noticed certain oscillation when using lm386 or if on the contrary it is heard clean, because when proving it with the loudspeaker I have an oscillation that using another amplifier as tba 820 of 1w disappears but seems that with tba820 it has the less power when deberia to have but that with the 386. Also I have proven with the TDA7052 and it does not give the necessary power either, perhaps the 386 it needs less signal entrance and for that reason it works better than the others. Greetings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 Hello, or I have corrected the errors that tapeworm and the circuit works perfectly in smd, Col, when proving the circuit with a loudspeaker you have noticed certain oscillation when using lm386 or if on the contrary it is heard clean, because when proving it with the loudspeaker I have an oscillation that using another amplifier as tba 820 of 1w disappears but seems that with tba820 it has the less power when deberia to have but that with the 386. Also I have proven with the TDA7052 and it does not give the necessary power either, perhaps the 386 it needs less signal entrance and for that reason it works better than the others. Greetings That's great that you have got it working - will you post a demo? ................. I have not tested the circuit with a loudspeaker (or do you mean driver?). I havn't noticed anything that would suggest that there are oscillations... what frequency are they ? As far as using other amps, Make sure that they are set with enough gain - the LM386 has a minimum gain of 20, so you should check if these other amps have similar gains or variable gain. Remember that this circuit is designed specifically to be part of a feedback loop. If it is used just to amplify a signal, then low level inputs will give a loud output and high level inputs will give a quiet but distorted output - when you are testing with a loudspeaker, what kind of input signal are you using? Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 Col, I finish verifying that the bridge between +9 r-12 and r 26 and this fact. c-9 I have like c-1 and this position. I don't understand this completely (communication breakdown) So I want to make sure - do you have a Capacitor (C9 47u) from +9v to ground ? If you don't, you will get oscillations. It won't work if you put it in the same position as C1 If you do have C9 connected to +9 and ground, maybe you need a much smaller cap there as well, and/or a large cap where C1 is... might want to put some decoupling caps at the LM386 supply as well. What Circuit did you use for your LM386 section? cheers Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zfrittz6 Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 Col the circuit this or, the condenser of 47 uf this in the switch that I have position, and the circuit I in series verify it with a loudspeaker with the conductor but single for the operation tests, in also fetzer I prove it thus, and when proving it it is when I have noticed that oscillation or interference rather, and by the verifications that I have done is of the first stage of preamplificacion.todos the condensers estan in its site the bad thing is the translation of google which I use and often it does not translate or. In any case the circuit works very well, although I notice it that a little slow I spread must raise the volume, perhaps is by fet that I use. on the other hand I am making another circuit based on tda7284 which has a ALC (automatic control of volume) along with tda7052, to feed it 6 volts and the tests they go enough good and the circuit enough is reduced, in the tests I am using 2 tda7052 one for each coil of which one of them is for notes but high and the other for all when it has it working I put it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted December 11, 2006 Report Share Posted December 11, 2006 Col the circuit this or, the condenser of 47 uf this in the switch that I have position, and the circuit I in series verify it with a loudspeaker with the conductor but single for the operation tests, in also fetzer I prove it thus, and when proving it it is when I have noticed that oscillation or interference rather, and by the verifications that I have done is of the first stage of preamplificacion.todos the condensers estan in its site the bad thing is the translation of google which I use and often it does not translate or. In any case the circuit works very well, although I notice it that a little slow I spread must raise the volume, perhaps is by fet that I use. The response is a little slow. Part of that is becasue the sustainer only starts driving the string when the input from the guitar drops below the threshold level. The other problem is the attack time of the AGC. You can make this faster, but if you do, you will introduce distortion at low frequencies, so on low notes, you will start to get some fizz. If you want to experiment with that to get a setup that you like better, change R21(15k) and R22(150k) to smaller values, say 8.2k and 82k (R22 >= 10 x R21) on the other hand I am making another circuit based on tda7284 which has a ALC (automatic control of volume) along with tda7052, to feed it 6 volts and the tests they go enough good and the circuit enough is reduced, in the tests I am using 2 tda7052 one for each coil of which one of them is for notes but high and the other for all when it has it working I put it. Good luck with that. btw, Have you looked at the tda7052A it has voltage controlled gain. Cheers, Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted December 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2006 (edited) On December 7, 2006 William 'Bill" Love aka Lovekraft left this world. A wonderful man, this thread shall hereafter be dedicated to his memory. I am overwhelmed with the grief of his passing and can sincerely say that without his encouragement, none of this work would be here now. He became a wonderful friend and mentor to me and will be forever missed... LINK Edited December 12, 2006 by psw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth_David Posted December 12, 2006 Report Share Posted December 12, 2006 Hello all.....I have read enough of the posts on this topic to leave me wondering whether or not I should have started a new topic...let me explain. My interest is not in the electronics side per se, as I have no knowledge in that field. I am primarily a musician, and have been using one of the latest models of the e-bow. It is a wonderful but extremely frustrating tool! OK, let me get to the point: I play many styles of music, and much of my interest presently is in applying the technology of the e-bow to the steel string acoustic. I believe that few guitarists are even remotely interested in this field, and I note that the type of sustainer many of you have been working on requires at least one magnetic pickup to be installed in the body of an electric guitar. However, may I point out that the e-bow even works on a well set up acoustic without any form of amplification. Of course it is slower to generate the necessary vibration in the string to produce either the fundamental or harmonic overtones, but as they say in their gumph (advertising material), the tone produced is extremely rich and natural. BUT.....the physical dimensio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth_David Posted December 12, 2006 Report Share Posted December 12, 2006 Hello all.....I have read enough of the posts on this topic to leave me wondering whether or not I should have started a new topic ...let me explain: My interest is not in the electronics side per se, as I have no knowledge in that field. I am primarily a musician, and have been using one of the latest models of the e-bow. It is a wonderful but extremely frustrating tool! OK, let me get to the point: I play many styles of music, and much of my interest presently is in applying the technology of the e-bow to the steel string acoustic. I believe that few guitarists are even remotely interested in this field, and I note that the type of sustainer many of you have been working on requires at least one magnetic pickup to be installed in the body of an electric guitar (mine has a piezo, and my electric has a combination of MIDI/piezo RMC system and normal single coil pu/s). However, may I point out that the e-bow even works on a well set up acoustic without any form of amplification. Of course it is slower to generate the necessary vibration in the string to produce either the fundamental or harmonic overtones, but as they say in their gumph (advertising material), the tone thus produced is extremely rich and natural - very violin like, and not the same as the tone achieved through an electric guitar. BUT.....the physical dimensions of the e-bow are such that one cannot really make practical use of it. I believe that the greatest impediment to a smaller design is the use of a 9v battery. I understand why the designers chose to make the lower surface of the e-bow rest upon two strings so that it can 'track' the string between them, but this a) imposes a limitation in terms of moving across the strings, and makes either playing fingerstyle or flatpicking very difficult, if not impossible, as well as tapping or harmonic slapping etc. I would like to discuss some ideas I have with anyone who might be interested, and this would cross over to the electric guitar equally if we could make the idea work. First of all, I need to understand why one could not use a lithium cell (or several), such as those found in many pocket calculators, watches etc to power the unit. Secondly, I would like to know whether the 'contact' area from the coils which causes the strings to vibrate really need be enclosed in a hand held container, as is presently the case. One idea for me would be to have some type of surface pad which one could attach either to the hand or even the fingertips, connected in some manner to the coils and necessary amplification circuitry which could be then mounted on the guitar body or perhaps on the strap. So far the new model of the e-bow only has a three position switch (Fundamental/off/Harmonic), so one would not have to worry very much about the accessibility of the controls. But the main issue for me is not to be tied to any single instrument, as like players such as Pat Metheny, I like to be able to freely switch between different instruments (although it is not as if I have a vast collection of guitars!!!) But it is important for me to be able to utilize this tool either on an acoustic or an electric guitar as the inspiration takes me. I am sure that this idea would also have great commercial value, especially to highly experimental musicians like Phil Keaggy and Allan Holdsworth, Pat Metheny or Steve Vai or Steve Morse, not to mention the scores of studio artists who could make good use of such a tool. I realize also the physical difficulties that such a tool would be subject to - for one thing, maintaining the correct distance from the strings would be very difficult. But then again, when using the e-bow on the E 1st string, only one side of the track rests on the 2nd string, yet one can still get the 1st string to vibrate with a reasonable amount of control with practice, and often I actually hold the e-bow above the string without resting it on the 2nd string. There is a further advantage of such a system over a fixed pickup system - actually probably far more than just one - but for now let me concentrate on the fact that one can vary the tone so much just by moving the node along the length of the string. I have even discovered useful sweet spots on the fretboard itself, and that would have amazing implications for tapping techniques such as Phil Keaggy uses in his acoustic playing! Personally I am not so much interested in the idea of tapping notes on the same string as that of playing chords with the left hand and tapping additional harmonies with the other, and it would be really amazing if one could choose certain notes to sustain and leave the rest be. But to cut to the point, having a large unweildy lump in one's hand while trying to express oneself on an already difficult instrument is really frustrating, and picking with the ring finger and pinky really doesn't cut it for me, although I have managed to get a reasonable technique that way . Another point is that what I feel would be more important for me would be the ability to pick the note, then introduce the sustain (that is what normally takes place with controlled feedback through an amp), so what would the possibility be of actually using the plectrum itself as a driver? They already sell metal plectrums, and some of them are incredibly light - obviously any wiring would be very vulnerable to damage (or could it perhaps work with some sort of Wifi system?). If the magnetic field via the tip of the plectrum were found to be too small, one could always slant the plectrum over the string so as to provide a wider field, and with reference to the previous mention of moving along the nodes of each string, the plectrum would be one of my preferred choices, as I am already used to seeking the nodes for picked harmonics. Hey, I'm just throwing some ideas up to see if any of them are feasable, so if they just get a laugh at my expense, well, then perhaps I will have brightened up someone's day lol Another idea just came to me too (but this time in relation to your existing guitar-mounted systems)...in another post there was mention of the problem involved with sustaining several strings at once. How about some expression pedal type of arrangement whereby the field of the coils would be applied to all strings at once (perhaps applied alongside the volume swell), and a string selector switch which would change over to single or selective string tracking? Just one more thing, again with reference to the body mounted systems, anyone remember the Dan Armstrong plexi-glass guitars with the sliding pickups? What about setting the driver and pickups in a track so that they could be slid along to find the sweet spot? I apologize for this post being so long, but hope that it will inspire someone to perhaps think a little more laterally, and perhaps come up with a way to implement this tool so that it becomes less restrictive to natural guitar technique and inspiration, and perhaps help the guitar to evolve further as an instrument. God bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted December 12, 2006 Report Share Posted December 12, 2006 (edited) Hello all.....I have read enough of the posts on this topic to leave me wondering whether or not I should have started a new topic Hi David, welcome to the infamous sustainer thread... MWAHAHAhahaha.. I think probably this topic should have a whole forum to itself, but unfortunately that is not the case, so this is exactly the right place for your ideas. I'll try to respond to some of your questions and ideas. ...and I note that the type of sustainer many of you have been working on requires at least one magnetic pickup to be installed in the body of an electric guitar (mine has a piezo, and my electric has a combination of MIDI / piezo RMC system and normal single coil pu/s). It doesn't actually require a magnetic pickup, it should be possible to feed the sustainer system from any type of pickup - although it may be necessary to modify the pre-amp section depending on the output level of the pickup type being used. It should be possible to use a saddle piezo, a 'bug', a soundhole magnetic, an internal mic, or any other obscure hi-tech pickup you can think of. However, may I point out that the e-bow even works on a well set up acoustic without any form of amplification. Of course it is slower to generate the necessary vibration in the string to produce either the fundamental or harmonic overtones, but as they say in their gumph (advertising material), the tone thus produced is extremely rich and natural - very violin like, and not the same as the tone achieved through an electric guitar. It should be possible to use an understring sustainer system on an acoustic - as long as the action is not too high, and the strings being used contain enough magnetic material. I would want to refine the physical design of the driver a little further, but thats just time and money rather than feasability. First of all, I need to understand why one could not use a lithium cell (or several), such as those found in many pocket calculators, watches etc to power the unit. The button cells just don't have enough juice - if you could get enough current from one without popping it, it would'nt last long enough to be practical. I think one alternative to 9v batteries is to use lithium rechargables designed for mobile phones - these are very slim, reasonably cheap including charger. The downsides are that when phone tech moves on next month, the batteries change, and then the sustainer design becomes obsolete and needs to be updated. Also, the circuitry would need to be re-designed to function with a lower voltage (not a bad thing - it would alow us to use all sorts of high tech ICs that are only available for a low supply voltage. Unfortunately to go this way would require us to use surface mount components and these are much more difficult to obtain and to build circuits with... not a great DIY option). Secondly, I would like to know whether the 'contact' area from the coils which causes the strings to vibrate really need be enclosed in a hand held container, as is presently the case. One idea for me would be to have some type of surface pad which one could attach either to the hand or even the fingertips, connected in some manner to the coils and necessary amplification circuitry which could be then mounted on the guitar body or perhaps on the strap. Hmm, I guess if you were to use Petes 'secret technology' you might be able to build a single string driver small enough to attach to your hand, personally I wouldn't be interested in doing this though - too impractical for many reasons. But the main issue for me is not to be tied to any single instrument, as like players such as Pat Metheny, I like to be able to freely switch between different instruments (although it is not as if I have a vast collection of guitars!!!) But it is important for me to be able to utilize this tool either on an acoustic or an electric guitar as the inspiration takes me. So put a sustainer on each of your instruments... at least that way, if one breaks down, you have the others as backup. I am sure that this idea would also have great commercial value, especially to highly experimental musicians like Phil Keaggy and Allan Holdsworth, Pat Metheny or Steve Vai or Steve Morse, not to mention the scores of studio artists who could make good use of such a tool. hmm, I thought having great commercial value and appealing to experimental musicians were mutually exclusive concepts. I realize also the physical difficulties that such a tool would be subject to - for one thing, maintaining the correct distance from the strings would be very difficult. But then again, when using the e-bow on the E 1st string, only one side of the track rests on the 2nd string, yet one can still get the 1st string to vibrate with a reasonable amount of control with practice, and often I actually hold the e-bow above the string without resting it on the 2nd string. There is a further advantage of such a system over a fixed pickup system - actually probably far more than just one - but for now let me concentrate on the fact that one can vary the tone so much just by moving the node along the length of the string. I have even discovered useful sweet spots on the fretboard itself, and that would have amazing implications for tapping techniques such as Phil Keaggy uses in his acoustic playing! Personally I am not so much interested in the idea of tapping notes on the same string as that of playing chords with the left hand and tapping additional harmonies with the other, and it would be really amazing if one could choose certain notes to sustain and leave the rest be. But to cut to the point, having a large unweildy lump in one's hand while trying to express oneself on an already difficult instrument is really frustrating, and picking with the ring finger and pinky really doesn't cut it for me, although I have managed to get a reasonable technique that way . As you are noting, for certain techniques, there are advantages to having a hand held unit, there are also big disadvantages... and other techniques... Its interesting to hear you pointing out that the ebow has advantages over a fixed sustainer when using ebow techniques... I'm sure if you were to experiment with a fixed sustainer you would find that it has great advantages over the ebow when using fixed sustainer techniques What I'm basically saying is that they although they are both based on similar technology, they are two distinctly different pieces of kit, each has its own set of useful features - neither is better. Another point is that what I feel would be more important for me would be the ability to pick the note, then introduce the sustain (that is what normally takes place with controlled feedback through an amp), so what would the possibility be of actually using the plectrum itself as a driver? They already sell metal plectrums, and some of them are incredibly light - obviously any wiring would be very vulnerable to damage (or could it perhaps work with some sort of Wifi system?). If the magnetic field via the tip of the plectrum were found to be too small, one could always slant the plectrum over the string so as to provide a wider field, and with reference to the previous mention of moving along the nodes of each string, the plectrum would be one of my preferred choices, as I am already used to seeking the nodes for picked harmonics. If you want something that simulates the effect of controlled feedback due to high volume, then the fixed sustainer is the answer. Thats one thing it can do really well... it's also the main reason I got involved in the first place. I doubt very much that you will be able to develop a practical plectrum/driver (unless you would be happy using a very chunky, very heavy plectrum with a hefty wire attached). Another idea just came to me too (but this time in relation to your existing guitar-mounted systems)...in another post there was mention of the problem involved with sustaining several strings at once. How about some expression pedal type of arrangement whereby the field of the coils would be applied to all strings at once (perhaps applied alongside the volume swell), and a string selector switch which would change over to single or selective string tracking? You would need a hexaphonic driver or pickup for that - certainly possible, but MUCH more complicated and difficult to implement that the current system. Just one more thing, again with reference to the body mounted systems, anyone remember the Dan Armstrong plexi-glass guitars with the sliding pickups? What about setting the driver and pickups in a track so that they could be slid along to find the sweet spot? Sounds like a good idea - the only drawback is that there is a fair bit of energy in the driver, and if its not firmly fixed, it could cause problems with vibrations... you would just have to make sure the design and constructino of the track system was sound. I apologize for this post being so long, but hope that it will inspire someone to perhaps think a little more laterally, and perhaps come up with a way to implement this tool so that it becomes less restrictive to natural guitar technique and inspiration, and perhaps help the guitar to evolve further as an instrument. Don't apologise It's great to have yet another long winded post generator here DIY Sustainer thread - THE home of the Long Winded Post Gang... Sustainer geeks of the world unite... cheers Col Edited December 12, 2006 by col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted December 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2006 Welcome Truth David (TD for short I think) to the sustainer thread... Hi David, welcome to the infamous sustainer thread... MWAHAHAhahaha.. Well said Col and with posts like ours we should eventually find out what happens when we click over the 999 page mark... Anyway, some interesting ideas and some discussion has surfaced before contemplating such devices. Very little work has been done but there are links to homemade ebows and the like and proposals by me, as well as other interested people about small hand held ebow devices...so, let's discuss it some more... For the record...this thread is called Sustainer Ideas and is about all such devices. Typically a "sustainer" (a word we shouldn't really use as it is trademarked!) we are talking about an electromagnetic device that creates a feedback loop that excites the strings into infinite sustain. A compressor/sustainer is not such a device for instance as it does not actively excite the strings. A vibration device (sustainiacs model C, or other designs that physically vibrate the actual guitar, usually at the headstock and possible with a modifided speaker) would qualify also...these are sometimes known as "Acoustic Sustainers". The ebow is a self contained single string sustainer with both pickup and driver within. There are also sampler and sythisis based ideas where a note will be held even after the string has stoped vibrating... There are technical restrictions on such devices and some limitations in what is achievable with DIY technology. The thread has also spawned some ideas and design principles for actual working sustainers...theories like my thin driver principle seem to be valid and Col has recently shown that circuitry can be designed and drivers improved upon to be more versitile and sophisticated. The thread actively encourages such developments and more is learn't through attempting to build devices and experimenting in line with peoples experiences here before getting to commited to radical solutions...quite a bit of the thread is aimed at this activity. ----- OK...so let's take a look at your post...hmmm, quite a long one... Hello all.....I have read enough of the posts on this topic to leave me wondering whether or not I should have started a new topic Nope...as unweildly as this thread is, starting new threads will disappoint as this one is heavily subscribed to by people with an interest will be sure to consider your ideas here... OK, let me get to the point: I play many styles of music, and much of my interest presently is in applying the technology of the e-bow to the steel string acoustic. Well...this is entirely possible with the sustainer technology too. The biggest problem is with the bronze wound strings...these are not as magnetic as electric guitar strings, but if you play steel string electrically, you may prefer the sound and feel of electric strings...depending on your style. I note that the type of sustainer many of you have been working on requires at least one magnetic pickup to be installed Well...a piezo system should work equally well, possibly better. A lot of the problems we have is the interaction of the two electromagnetic devices; driver and pickup. A piezo system is vibartionary so is not effected by the EMI coming from the driver. CurtisA did test the principle on an electro-acoustic and reported good results... may I point out that the e-bow even works on a well set up acoustic without any form of amplification. This too is true of sustainers...the guitar will merrily play all by itself if not turned off! The amp in both the sustainer and the ebow are small battery devices quite separate from the guitar's output...the ebow is completely separated as it has an internal magnetic pickup...otherwise the principle is the same. I understand why the designers chose to make the lower surface of the e-bow rest upon two strings so that it can 'track' the string between them, but this a) imposes a limitation in terms of moving across the strings, and cool.gif makes either playing fingerstyle or flatpicking very difficult, if not impossible, as well as tapping or harmonic slapping etc. I would like to discuss some ideas I have with anyone who might be interested, and this would cross over to the electric guitar equally if we could make the idea work. This is the place to discuss such things...but, the ebow is a design to be admired. The problem I see with the type of musical techniques you are proposing is that any hand held device would impede such techniques. This is the beauty and advantage of the "sustainer" it is not held at all and is capable of driving all of the strings. The biggest problem some will have is proper muting as without it the guitar will tend to play itself. But to cut to the point, having a large unweildy lump in one's hand while trying to express oneself on an already difficult instrument is really frustrating This is why a fixed sustainer is the device of choice for myself. The ebow however provides portability to other instruments and the ability to "bow" the strings...different devices really, both with merits... so what would the possibility be of actually using the plectrum itself as a driver? Very little...although a plectrum kind of is a manual driver, hehehe... This would still be a hand held device though limiting techniques for fingerstyle players and other techniques anyway. A fixed mounted sustainer (possible in the sound hole of an acoutic for instance) or even some kind of vibartionary device that moved the soundboard may reap greater rewards for the type of thing you are searching for... I am sure that this idea would also have great commercial value, especially to highly experimental musicians like Phil Keaggy and Allan Holdsworth, Pat Metheny or Steve Vai or Steve Morse, not to mention the scores of studio artists who could make good use of such a tool. I doubt that it would have "great" comercial value...but it may well have good musical value and for that reason alone, and that the pleasure of the chase in making such a device should suffice...at least at this stage... First of all, I need to understand why one could not use a lithium cell (or several), such as those found in many pocket calculators, watches etc to power the unit. Col has explained it well. This is a high powered device...think of the force a plectrum makes to excite the strings...it will take some power if you think about it and such sources will not suffice. That does not mean that remote power from a lead would not work. It was discussed a while back an idea of a tiny docking ebow type device. Using my hex style devices I can invisage a very small ebow with circuitry and battery remote from it and the driver part and pickup connected to it by some kind of cable...perhaps...there are technical problems even with that... Secondly, I would like to know whether the 'contact' area from the coils which causes the strings to vibrate really need be enclosed in a hand held container, as is presently the case. Well, it does need to be in something...but not as big as an ebow. An ebow however contains both a pickup and a driver and these coils do need to be separated by some distance from one another...this detirmines the bottom plate size of the ebow. One idea for me would be to have some type of surface pad which one could attach either to the hand or even the fingertips, connected in some manner to the coils and necessary amplification circuitry which could be then mounted on the guitar body or perhaps on the strap. For the type of thing you are considering...if I were to make such a thing...I would envisage a very small magnetic single string driver that sourced it's signal from piezo pickups and that no magnetic pickups were on the guitar (these would pickup the drivers signal and squeel I believe). So, on an electro-acoustic guitar, this may well be possible...and removable to other such instruments much on the way you suggest. Some kind of thin signal cable would still be necessary from the guitar (possibly the output jack to this driver device)...this cable may well get in the way however... Hey, I'm just throwing some ideas up to see if any of them are feasable, so if they just get a laugh at my expense, well, then perhaps I will have brightened up someone's day There will be no gratuitous flaming of peoples ideas here... People should keep an open mind and I feel sure that people enjoy the adventues in sustainerland because of the willful pursuing of ideas such as you are proposing. It is not the first time people have suggested such devices and I have considered them myself... Personally, I think the sustainer is more of the type of thing that fits the bill for what you are seeking. In particular the ability to have both hands free to explore any techniques and develo your own. It is also fairly unobtrusive and in DIY form, potentially more versitle and certainly cheaper. For may people such as yourself, seven string guitars and a lot of bass and acoustic players...DIY is probably the only solution and this thread the main source of information on the subject... For an electro acoustic guitar...a device like my "sustain box" would be ideal. This was built expressly for this purpose, to try out different instruments as well as drivers and such quickly and easily.... This small driver could fit into the sound hole, the box on a strap and you have an acoustic guitar sustainer that could well be portable to other similar instruments. It would be so cheap and if a major part of your "style" I think it would be better just to make a few... The "sustain box" and driver are identical to the circuitry and driver specs of my "sustainer strat". Without restrictions on the mounting of the circuitry inside a guitar...Col's circuit and improved dual coil thin drivers could easily be accomodated... So...probaly enough from me... pete Oh...beware the long posts...leave plenty of spaces for paragraphs and be aware that the number of quotes possible are limited so the formating wont come out. I have avoided that in this post by simply cutting and pasting and changing color, etc! Nothing wrong with long posts however, so don't hold back... p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zfrittz6 Posted December 13, 2006 Report Share Posted December 13, 2006 Col, that simulation software you use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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