mrjstudios Posted August 21, 2007 Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 Very good progress PSW. The initial few will be a little cheaper in exchange for testing data. I'll do beta testing for you. How much cheaper do you think that the beta versions would be? The US$63 for the whole thing is a good price, but I was just wondering how much the first ones would be..... I will test the thing on my 'susatainer guitar' (which has only one bridge pickup) and I will use an extra strat pickup to mount the sustainer on, and not even wire it as a pickup. (I'll just use it as a dummy for its magnets and cover.) This will simplify my testing and eliminate the switching problem in my data. Now if I can only find a good HB to stick on that guitar...... -MRJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onelastgoodbye Posted August 21, 2007 Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 Nice going, psw. Your single coil retrofit is very much like what I had in mind when I first experimented with the bobbinless coils. The small connectors are called jst connectors and they come in many different shapes. Still reading up on this every day, but right now I'm working on something else..could be of great benefit to the sustainer project (yes it cuts pcb's too ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 21, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 Hey Tim...we must think a little alike...I built a very low rent kind of thing like that for my dremmel from draw slides and a old portable drill press type thing...well at least tried to. I used roller draw slides so the table could move up and back attached to another table that moves from side to side...the dremel hovered above, I thought I could use it to make bobbins and stuff like a 3D router table thingy with templates...didn't really go anywhere for me unfortunately...bit of a hack job, no accuracy in the sliding side...yours looks motorised...CNC? Back on topic... Am getting a lot of very positive responses which is great as I need the encouragement...my daughter tells me to stop begging for it, so perhaps I shouldn't have said that! Anyway... The idea of having to radically different settings sounds to me like a definite bonus, being able to go from clean sustain to sustain with distortion and feedback controlled by a pot. I wanted to have the circuit be simple but also offer some of what col's circuit does in control and clean feedback. This can go from pretty subtle, harmonic inflections on decaying notes (not infinite sustain) to mild clean sustain, then when the "fizz" sound starts to kick in it goes to a full on feedback type effect and on the extreme, a kind of edge of destruction, boardering on squealing type of thing. This is quite a different control from the sensitivity knob which is a simple gain control...it interacts with the limiting part of the circuit in interesting ways to create this effect. The trimmer is also cleaverly installed so that it will set an upper limit to the effect on the control, or a jumper ire installed between the pot connectors for a set and forget setting if used without it. I am very pleased with this innovation and tried hard to kkep this working with the various layouts and changes to the circuit design. Another potentially difficult issue for us guitarists is that of successfully connecting the wires from the driver coil to the circuit. I remember at one point we were also discussing the possibility of having a very small click connector on the driver itself so that it would be very simple to connect the driver to the main circuit via a multi-core flat computor type cable - presumably it would only need 2 or three wires, so this could be very thin. But as a potential punter, I feel that the kit should be as 'ready to go' as possible, needing very little technical expertise in order to fit it. I am not saying that guitarists are all techno-phobic, but I suspect at the same time that most of us will lack the necessary skills to fit the current commercially available kits without external help and a fair amount of technical support. Yes...so I am trying to meet halfway on this. Most connectors are not cheap (forcing the cost of the thing up) and the small connectors that I can commonly get, will effectively double the size of the board...this thing is very small). This kind of thing is what I am using at the moment.... Wires can be plugged into it just like a breadboard and snapped to length...they have been invaluable for testing as I can just push the wires into the holes (solder cut offs of components to the wires) and they hold quite well. For an installation though, you will want to solder the connections. What I thought might be cool though, is another matching set of these things, solder the connections to this loose set, then plug them together...they hold really tight, yet will come apart with care. Kind of a DIY solution...not the cheapest, these things are machined and often have gold inserts, but as cheap as sockets, etc. You have to remember, that there will be wiring required for the rerouting of pickups to bypass switches and such and even with conventional connectors, like EMG use, you need to solder the wires to the female sockets...not easy. This way you can test without soldering, when sure it is working, plug in the wires and solder them to the strip and plug that into the matching strip on the board. I have even installed a reverse polarity protection diode on the board in case anyone connects the power back to from, so no harm will come to the circuit from mistakes. Bear in mind also the difficulties presented by schematic diagrams - not everyone knows how to read them - and I would count myself among such people. On the other hand, if I can see good clear and accurate diagrams of components and how they are wired together, this is something I am able to work with. Yes...well me too. That is one reason for me to make this circuit myself, rather than supply a kit of components and you DIY...I can make a test rig and plug it in with these connectors to be sure it works before it leaves here. The installation thing, which I think you are alluding to is going to be a little tricky to explain. Especially since each guitar is a little different. I am hoping to do full instructions with photos and stuff on a CD to be sent with it that I hope will be clear, and that will be updated with information and hopefully more photos, etc from the initial beta testers experiences. Another approach would be to work like fernandes and have the switches hard wired to the board...this dramatically increases the board size and limits the option to those switches and placement, requiring routing which is far more difficult, invasive and such than a simple reversible rewire. The more options and additional materials required, the more this thing will be delayed...there is still quite a bit to go and the more I work on things, the more ideas I have, and so it goes...nothing gets done but a lot of busy work and tweaking. Better to do something and improve on it, than nothing at all...yes? I probably missed it, but I don't remember reading anything about the switching for the device. For me this has always been the bugbear, and is the most complicated part of wiring up the system. My advice to you would be to offer a prewired solderless harness, like Kilman, so that complete novices to electronics could fit the circuit in their guitar with only very simple computer type connectors. This might also make a modular approach more practical - meaning that as you come up with add-ons or whatever in the future, these could be readily incorporated later just by substituting the new circuit and clipping the connectors together. Yes...I know...see above...I think that people will want or need to do their own thing. As this driver concept is very "stealthy" (you don't see it on the guitar) I wanted to go with this idea and use a super switch so that the sustainer is one of the pickup selections. Sumgai at GuitarNuts2 posted this for me to make this happen for my proposed scheme... this will give me the following selections... neck pickup~ neck and middle~ neck and bridge~ Sustainer bridge~ Bridge HB pickup~ Drive control (push pull harmonic hopefully)~ Master volume and tone... You could wire this so the sustainer or any of the pickup selections, or other combinations, were in any position. I have chosen these because I still get the classic sounds...neck, neck middle, bridge and (the more useful tele like) bridge and neck combination rather than middle alone. The bridge pickup is a humbucker on my Strat, so the bridge middle setting is not the classic quacky tone, but even on a traditional strat, this is similar to the neck/middle sound (which is classic strat on my guitar) but more brittle. Still with this implementation, you get to choose anything you want in any order, if you nut out the wiring of the switch (or get someone to help as I did ). A 4PDT toggle, is an option...this would be a $7 part so a cheaper solution, plus a DPDT of course for the harmonic switch. All kinds of problems though are anticipated...my knobs wont fit the supplied pot, etc...and I wont be able to do everything. Switches will be an additional cost to the device too...a super-switch (fender) cost me about $30, a push pull pot I'm not sure. Perhaps at some point, if this took off, I could do some deal on them, but for now you need to organize this side of things yourself. Perhaps these issues will inspire someone to explore the electronic switching options...beta testers will provide solutions as they are nutted out, probably on here! A pre-wired harness would be pretty labor intensive and push up the price too...so that is not really an option. I have made this layout very intuitive though. Over at this new DIY Stompbox Thread I described the connections like so... The connections are fairly intuitive and I am using IC socket strips so that wires can be plugged in breadboard style for testing, soldered on or soldered to another strip for quick connection with very little space. On the left side of the little board are two inputs...bridge pickup in and out effectively...connect the bridge pickup directly to the circuit and the circuit to the selection or sustainer bypass/on-off switch of choice. Other pickups must be completly bypassed and this may well require a 4PDT switch, I am intending to use a superswitch (4PDT) selector on a strat to have the sustainer as one of the pickup selection options. On the right side, 8 connections...two for output, two for power, two for LED power (optional for those who want an indicator light) and two for a drive pot (an onboard trimmer provides that option if you don't want the pot on the guitar itself...the timmer if you do will provide an upper drive limit to the pot. The circuit will work without the drive pot (1k) by adding a jumper between the last two pins. The output wires go to a DPDT phase reverse switch and then on to the driver coil...this provides the harmonic effect where the fundamental is suppressed by the device but drives the upper harmonics. So, in all, I take your points and am trying to address these things as easily as effectively as I can, but there is a lot to balance in terms of cost, time, versatility and practicality. I definitely feel that it would be important that you look into designing an external power supply as we were discussing a few posts back, as this would truly set this design apart from the rest in terms of usability as well as providing clean current for those of us who suffer from bad supplies with a lot of spikes as is the case here in Spain. Again...I know only too well how easy it is to overdevelop things. We have discussed ways that this could be done, but I dont think it is going to be that popular an option for most. I'd actually like a dual option so you plug the guitar in to recharge the internal battery...entirely possible too! There is a product called the X-bat and schemes already out there to use a stereo lead for remote power...again, I will have to leave this for now, or even for others to contribute. I will test the thing on my 'susatainer guitar' (which has only one bridge pickup) and I will use an extra strat pickup to mount the sustainer on, and not even wire it as a pickup. (I'll just use it as a dummy for its magnets and cover.) This will simplify my testing and eliminate the switching problem in my data. This is effectively how the thing is running in my gutar at the moment. I have wired the bridge pickup to the volume control and disconnected the selector (an so all the pickups)...I have taken a shielded lead from the pot to the circuit (which just plugs in) and the driver wires across the top of the guitar for now. Even though not installed then, It is already half way there and in this state throughout testing. I'll do beta testing for you. How much cheaper do you think that the beta versions would be? The US$63 for the whole thing is a good price, but I was just wondering how much the first ones would be..... Well...not $25!!! I am very bad at costing my own work and the initial very hand crafted ones will take a bit of time to get perfect. I certainly can not afford to give them away and don't anticipate getting my investment back in the short term...besides the years and $$$ on this as documented here...I have spent a couple of hundred in the last few weeks working on this, and countless hours... I knew that suggesting a price would be a problem, but this should be appropriate if the methods come together, the circuit is bedded down and fully tested and I move to PCB's or even commercially assembled boards (more heavy duty investment). Better to keep it low and have it be successful in the long run. I really do not have a full cost and time analysis of the project but I do have a rough idea of component cost...still working on it...so at the moment I can't say....not a lot cheaper I am afraid though! Now if I can only find a good HB to stick on that guitar...... Ah...you see, you'd be prepared to pay top dollar for one of these machine made components, but haggle over this!!! Anyway...more than enough from me for now...better get back to it, claen up day, the house is a mess! pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjstudios Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 Well...not $25!!! I am very bad at costing my own work and the initial very hand crafted ones will take a bit of time to get perfect. I certainly can not afford to give them away and don't anticipate getting my investment back in the short term...besides the years and $$$ on this as documented here...I have spent a couple of hundred in the last few weeks working on this, and countless hours... Hey, I'd be willing to pay US$60 even for a beta unit. I was just wondering about how much $$ I should set aside for this. Just figure it out when you can, name the price, and I'll pay it (as long as it doesn't cost as much as a fernandez kit ) Ah...you see, you'd be prepared to pay top dollar for one of these machine made components, but haggle over this!!! No.... when I said good HB, I meant like buying an aftermarket one or a stripped-out-of-guitar one on ebay. And like I said before, I'm not haggling here. A while back you asked for a price estimate, so I gave one based on what I knew at the time. It is up to you to figure out your price, and I'll pay it! -MRJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth_David Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 Am getting a lot of very positive responses which is great as I need the encouragement...my daughter tells me to stop begging for it, so perhaps I shouldn't have said that! *If you don't ask, people are not always intuitive enough to realize your need......nothing wrong with asking for moral support from a community with whom one is developing a project. Thank you for addressing the points I raised..... I was thinking that the Variax might be a very good option for the sustainer, given that until and unless I transplant it into another body (which may or may not have magnetic pickups as well), this would presumably simplify the switching considerably, given that it only uses piezzo p/ups. But this brings me to another question: in a guitar with no visible p/ups, just how stealth could you make the driver? I was thinking about possibly encasing a magnetless driver inside some kind of plastic, such as the type one used to encase sea-shells and other such stuff when it used to be available in kit form, but don't know whether that would allow the driver to function correctly. It might be quite attractive though, or else possibly a wooden enclosure such as several pickup manufacturers are starting to experiment with. This question arises because I would like to have a custom body made with no p/ups visible at all, and with a really nice carved quilted maple top and hollow or chambered body. After talking with MRJRStudios, I have been also considering using another material for the main part of the body, such as carbon graphite, for its superior tone and sustain over wood. Several more adventurous companies are steering in that direction, and even some acoustic guitar makers. Steinberger and Parker Guitars started the ball rolling though... I found the Steinbergers too heavy and the Parkers too uncomfortable, although comparitively light - but I hated the feel of the neck, whereas I loved the Steinberger neck. But I digress. I personally think that from what you are saying if we can be sure to get a working sustainer and the necessary technical support to be able to fit the system, then the price you are considering is fair. Especially when compared to the price of off the shelf products, which is obviously far higher, plus the costs involved in having it professionally fitted. The accompanying CD sounds an excellent idea, especially if you could incorporate some basic video instructions of the tricky stuff. Pre-wired circuits certainly seem like the way to go. The connector in the photo looks very fiddly to use, but the idea of fitting two together sounds like a good option. Great work though Pete, speak soon David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 Only kidding MJ...it takes time...I have to decide what this thing "is" first and how much I have to put into it. In quantity it will be cheaper...in larger quantity, I can get someone to make most of the circuit for me. I estimated that from what I expect for the cost of materials and time and hope to make a profit from a more bulk or MKII version along the way. The beta testers will get it cheaper (how much I don't know) as the "package" will not be complete until it has been tested on a few guitars and any problems are ironed out. This is valuable information and also aids in promoting it further, so that has to be worth something. Also...the people who are prepared to invest their confidence in this in the initial stages are showing a fair amount of faith that should be rewarded. I think the quality of my work will be impressive enough, even without PCB's for the first batch. If all goes well, a more cost effective version will be a result. To make this work, I have to develop systems and procedures (am doing this along the way)...yesterday I refined the template that accurately allows duplication of the boards track cuts, for instance. I am thinking the first batch will be about twenty. Once people have given me feedback on this I will explore other avenues for constructing things I'd assume. First things first though...still have the installation to contend with... I will then have to do the instructions and such and work out postage and any duties that may apply...could get complicated. I intend to post sound clips and such that give an idea of what can be expected from the device...that's pretty important. To do all these things requires all kinds of infrastructure be acquired. For instance...since the separation, I have lost half of everything (more actually)...so I have to buy a digital camera for instance, even to take proper photos...I imagine I will need a web site and a way of managing paypal payments...all stuff I don't really have any skills in! I am having a tricky time finding a way of getting the component supply sorted as well. Still progress is pretty swift so far. I have some interest over at DIY stomp for the coil only...this is a good thing as it would encourage rapid developments of circuit ideas and innovations from a vast knowledge base. As always the driver is the key and anything that helps me profit from this even if it is only the coil is great for everyone... So back to cleaning the house...keep the advice coming, it is a long haul... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 Oh david has posted too... I was thinking that the Variax might be a very good option for the sustainer, given that until and unless I transplant it into another body (which may or may not have magnetic pickups as well), this would presumably simplify the switching considerably, given that it only uses piezzo p/ups. But this brings me to another question: in a guitar with no visible p/ups, just how stealth could you make the driver? I can only work on the mass appeal application initially. I am pretty sure the driver could be adapted to a stand alone driver. It does need to be close to the strings and will require magnets and possibly a core as well. I think that the coil could be adapted with very thin neomags as I have done some similar devices in the past. A thin plastic or timber veneer is probably fine...Sustainaic don't allow any covers, so my device has one up on them right there!!! Unless I make enough money to buy a Variax out of this, I am unlikely to have the opportunity to work on this myself, switching would be easier but I suspect there may be a need for changes in the circuit to deal with the piezos and how it would connect to the Variax circuitry is a mystery. This would really be a novel application but one perhaps Variax themselves might like to pay me to develop for them...hint, hint! The connector in the photo looks very fiddly to use, but the idea of fitting two together sounds like a good option. It is the best option and easiest to work with that I have found so far....everything else is both too large, more fiddly and more expensive. This thing will never be dead "easy"...but it should be well doable if worked out right in this format. I have in mind eventually marketing the whole concept to guitar repairers as an alternative to sustainers that would increase their business in installation without requiring the whole route out the guitar and lack of support from the other makers. It really shouldn't be much harder than a guitar rewire if I do my end right and so a lot cheaper proposition to have done for you if you lack the confidence, skills or equipment. Anyway...obviously I am avoiding housework, so better go... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crep Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 (edited) i was thinkin about winding the coil at 4ohms...did you try? ah pete i sent you an email. Edited August 22, 2007 by Crep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 4 ohms is not a good option...you will not generate as much electromagnetic force and the amp will not be running as efficiently so wont have enough power either... Yes...got the email....sorry, have been a little distracted...will reply soon, thanks....interesting... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icaughtfire006 Posted August 23, 2007 Report Share Posted August 23, 2007 Id like to be added to the list of beta testers if at all possible, seems to be a great idea, i was going to PM you for cost on one anyway....Great job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2007 Welcome I caught fire... The initial demand, even before fully tested is staggering, lots of inquiries. There is still a way to go, but this helps to keep up my efforts. It is becoming clear that I will not be able to keep up and make the thing cost effective if I have to make my own boards, even with jigs and such. The MKI circuit seems to be adequate and certainly an improvement on my previous ones and the fetzer ruby. It certainly is a step in the right direction I feel. So, I will have to make a commitment at some point so did a PCB layout for it also. It was pointed out elsewhere, that the coil may need to be looked at to make it more professional. The subsequent coils have been a little better than the first but the issue is with the thin wires from the driver coil and how they may connect to the leads. They need to be thin to get past the bobbin and pickup coil and not get pinched by the cover which holds it on...once out of the cover, they could be threaded through the hole for the pickup wires for strain relief. These wires haven't broken on me yet but if they were to break close to the coil (most likely place) there would be no way of repairing it. This kind of break would only occur in handling and installation and the wires are fairly sturdy. The best I can think of is to double back the wires to the coil and twist them, attach the driver leads an inch or so from the coil and cover with shrink wrap...still leaves the wires at the coil vulnerable, so it will have to be treated with care. The test guitar has the coil wires at least six inches out of the guitar across the top till it joins with the driver leads, so asking for them to break, but I have had no problems myself. It is a good point and may give the coil another epoxy coat when pressing, to give it a glassy look and polish (not that it will be seen. The circuit too may need protection, don't want it shorting out in the control cavity or anything. Will make one more circuit that replicates the slight changes included for the PCB style layout...best to be certain...and this will be the one for the installation in the guitar. Then it is on with the installation itself...still have to work on that drive pot and harmonic switch, but will do the super-switch thing ASAP. This will be the real test, are there any pops in switching, interference when the other pickups are wired back in, etc. If all goes well, then this preparation for manufacture will come into play...distribution will then have to follow, which will be a whole other can of worms. Better get a camera so I can properly document the installation and such for those who follow. Thanks for the continued interest and encouragement... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transient Posted August 23, 2007 Report Share Posted August 23, 2007 Hi Pete and guys, While i don't have anything to add to the thread (yet), i just dropped by to say hello. I'm following your progress, keep up the good work ... emre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjstudios Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 Sounds great as usual PSW. Remember that I have a nice camera and take lots of close up hi-res pics (I know everyone here has seen them....and has probably been annoyed by the sheer numbers of them....) While I am eventually 'beta testing' and installing your unit, I could take loads if pictures of the entire process if you want me to. That way (even if you get a camera) you could have some different styled guitar/application pictures of your unit to use in a manual if you wish. By the way, you said the coil wire was strong -- what gauge is it? I know my .2mm is pretty strong (but not really if you pull at it) and the .25mm is even more so, but not like what you were talking about! -MRJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth_David Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 Sorry I haven't had time to reply to you regarding your previous comments, but my Variax is already here in Spain, just has to get through customs (so I'll count on another 2 weeks, lol )....no idea how to combine the connections though. But I've also now gotten rid of the RMC circuit from my Strat, so that is now wired pretty much standard apart from the Megaswitch E, which just gives you the Bridge and neck p/up combination in the middle position instead of the middle p/up. Sort of what I did with a push/pull switch on the Ibanez. So I have basically simplified my original project guitar, although I am seriously thinking of using it as a test base to transplant the guts of the Variax into before thinking about getting a purpose built body for it. I would be prepared to pay something extra in order to have a rechargeable battery/external power supply setup, even if you do not feel that there would be enough demand for it in general to warrant marketing it. The Variax as I mentioned already has such a setup. It is not as intellingent as your idea of automatically cutting in and out in order to power and recharge the batteries, but maybe it could be modified for that? I'm with MRJ on this, I think you are really taking some giant steps forward here, this is going to be really good, I can feel it! You are obviously really thinking of this from all angles, so hats off to you! The pcb version sounds really good, and the circuit protection too. And the expoxied glass like finish could be one way of making the driver more presentable in a Variax guitar with no pickups visible, probably better than a wooden type of cover, simpler to do too. The 5 way switching will be interesting to see. The drivers that Juán sent me so long ago proved just how easy it is to damage the wires coming off the coil, and as you say if they break too near the windings there is not a hope in **** of finding the broken wire within the coil. The problem is the brittle quality of these wires, probably made worse by the coating on them. In fact I damaged mine while scraping back the coating in order to solder to the wires. So I definitely feel that it would be an idea to pre-solder extended wires to the driver wires coming off the coil and try to devise a means of strengthening and protecting the wire between the bobbin and the soldered connections. Don't know how you intend doing that then having it still fit inside the pickup cover though..... BTW speaking of Juán, remember his idea of a micro-switch glued to the Strat 5-way? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crep Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 (edited) well, it works, but the battery drains very fast, i get a lot of noise (i have to stay at about 20 cm from the emg to don't hear it) and the result, honestly, isn't so appreciable so yours is. damn. really don't know what is the problem! pete can you tell me what circuit did you use before your own project? thanks. i'm not so sure about the f/r Edited August 24, 2007 by Crep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 Crep...need more details particularly on the driver. An EMG puts out more power so a f/r should be fine...what happens when you back off the gain? Do you have pins 1 and 8 joined for max gain...add a 1 k trim pot and bring it right down, or disconnect the two and see if that helps. It could be that an EMG is more sensitive, but they are less magnetic and Tim got his to work. I take it that there are no other pickups on the guitar connected in any way? Are you running the fetzer ruby from a separate battery to the EMG? Could the EMG ground be different from the f/r sustainer so as to join the -ve of one battery to the + of the pickup supply or signal? The driver is the key and it is for this reason I have embarked on this project with the pickup conversion kit. Amp problems are usually due to inexperience...it either works or it doesn't. I have never felt the fetzer/ruby was the best solution for this project. There has been a continual call for a "standard" amp for the project, the f/r was used by default. Ironically, I have never made on myself! It will work for most though. My personal "standard circuit" which has been pretty consistent throughout, is simply an amplifier with much higher gain in the preamp and some filtering of very high frequencies...there are also additional capacitors in the lm386 stage to avoid oscillation. The new amp retains these features but uses a different preamp/buffer and auto-limiting, not a lot of difference really but does provide a compact solution, oscillation and power protection, LED power and optional drive control. The circuit does not contain the "mojo" in this project... The mojo is in the driver...it is important that the driver is well made and well potted and free of vibration, has the correct wire and is pretty tightly compacted (not much air in the windings). If not the driver will attempt to shake itself as much as the strings! As the driver is most often at fault and the thing that most puts people off and hard to exactly replicate and sometimes difficult to get even the right wire, I came to the conclusion that making a coil available that fitted the specifications, or even enhanced the concept, would be the only way really to ensure people were working from the same starting point. The amp project, which is taking up a lot of my time and development, and a lot of initial outlay, I felt was required as we do not have a "standard" and that too can cause people problems. The availability of a viable amp and coil then, that can be used together for a complete device with the addition of switching an wiring in, or used separately for circuit or driver experiments seems like the ideal, and only solution and still leaves things open for experimentation and development too. I can see people building very interesting and improved circuits for the coils and developing interesting new driver ideas, HB solutions and the like with the use of an amp module. The intention would be to supply these things separately on request. So the work of this thread and all it's contributors will be greatly enhanced, perhaps one day it will have it's own forum to support the "product" it's development and display the results. Anyone with skills to help put together this side of things and the purchasing ability, feel free to put your hands up...many hands make light work and this is outside of my expertise. By the way...I have thought up a new name for the "device" that avoids the s-word and perhaps better describes the broader applications of the device. Should I trademark it or something before disclosing it? It has become clear that it will need to have a PCB made and I have the layout and supplier ready but for no extra cost, I can have writing on the reverse of the circuit board. I can't use anything that comes too close to or implies another product (a Google search seems to indicate that it doesn't)...I could disclose it privately (email or pm) as long as it is kept confidential, for opinions on the name. Be sure you are known to me before requesting it though! Again, any advice is welcome on this front. All these logistics are really holding things up. It is clear that initial demand will mean that I will need to buy in some quantity, hence making my own circuit boards is unlikely to be appropriate. Then there are the other aspects to things, do I register as a business, pay taxes and duties on these things? By doing so there will be more expense and commitment, however there could be benefits such as being able to tax deduct against my wage for materials, services and support equipment (bulk purchases, ISP and website services, computer, camera and even musical equipment used to run or promote the business). It may help also if the thing all goes pair shaped as a loss too may be tax deductible! It is all complicated and well outside my comfort zone. And again, these concerns take away from the main game of producing something that works and can be made available....grrr. Still it is an adventure and a modest investment at this stage may not be too bad. Of course there are personal commitments and complications to work within, got to work, address the kids thing and is likely that more family court stuff will emerge in time, I would like to get this initial stage over with and be up and running ASAP while this window of opportunity still exists. Once these initial logistics are bedded down, I can get down to the actual physical making of these things. I have been buying suppliers though, and will have a few beta versions for evaluation. I was thinking of people who have already successfully installed a driver who would be prepared to swap out my circuit for theirs for comparison and compatibility. Also, people who have a guitar with a single coil neck pickup of a suitable design that would be prepared to disconnect other pickups and install the coil and circuit to test at that level. Anyone with particular expertise in guitar building or repairs would be ideal too I imagine. There will only be a very limited number of these completely hand built devices available for this kind of testing. People should contact me directly via email preferably with suggestions or offers. I will not be able to provide many and there are still a few things to iron out. The circuit is pretty much complete however but expensive to make in this form. I may also require these prototypes back! It seems like a sensible thing to do before embarking on a production run of the things. A lot of people have made expensive ear-rings by getting circuit boards made that have errors in them or the circuit or layout didn't quite fit the requirements...anyone with experience in getting circuit boards made who could evaluate my specifications could also contact me (very simple circuit and more concerned about the pad size and practicality for hand soldering, than the circuit itself). I will need to make quite a few more coils and possibly multiple post-winding presses to enable me to effectively make batch lots. Fortunately, I have made the winding machine portable so that I can do this outside in the fresh air. I have done a little in looking at alternative epoxies, but this can get expensive. Epoxy needs to be mixed for each individual coil, so there is a bit of wastage, but because of the bobbin-less design, longer setting times prohibit the removal of the coil from the machine until there is quite a bit of setting done. I am using epoxy that sets in minutes...the whole thing must be successfully constructed in that time so I need to work fast. Suitable driver lead connections now look like they need to be made at this point while the epoxy is green, and set in place during the pressing/setting phase. This will make it even trickier and difficult to do within the time constraints. A bit to work out there, and I had better return to these driver coil issues soon. I look like requiring a bulk real of suitable wire, the supplier of the small reels don't stock a lot so if I am going to make a few I will run out of wire fairly quickly without the ability to quickly obtain more. Costings show that to make this work as a "product" will require $100's, possibly a thousand dollars of outlay...hmmm. I am prepared to make the investment, but it had better work and I am able to meet demand to make back that investment if it does. All very tricky and a little stressful, stress is my enemy and holds things up more than anything. More work on the costings and supply and other logistics may help and if investing money to make it go smoother is required (like getting PCB's made) this is probably a good thing, certainly in the long run. I have been aiming for a price that mirrors the cost of trying to DIY this thing I suspect, so am probably underselling it, however, if it is successful, this price is not out of the question I suspect. Once things get settled and I have a better idea of time and material costs in production, then this cost may well have to be reviewed. There are a few advantages to working from Australia, one is that the exchange rate is typically 30% lower than the US so that is a typical saving for most of the rest of the world that can help in all this. Anyway, rambling...advice and assistance may help to keep me more focussed...perhaps I need a project manager!!! pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onelastgoodbye Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 I feel you are being to nice a guy here, Pete....please do not skimp on the pricing! Just calculate what a driver costs you: the materials, packaging, postage, labour, etc...(we'll leave the R&D out) and double or triple that. Realistically, that should be your price. Consider that the other systems easily cost $ 200 - 300 WITHOUT installation; and your sytem has several major benefits over these: invisible, no loss of pickups, major support, way less complicated, no routing, etc.. market your product around these advantages, not around the price, that's NEVER a good idea (I'm not saying you are, just be careful). If people aren't willing to put up the money for a good product (even if it's beta) then it's probably not worth building these things and making the investment. Hopefully this all works out really well for you just remember this (from a wise man who said it much better than I ever could): "If you take the time to build a quality product, then price it like a quality product. The wayside is littered with failed builders who priced themselves out of business." >LK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 "If you take the time to build a quality product, then price it like a quality product. The wayside is littered with failed builders who priced themselves out of business." >LK So sad that he's gone...you know LK made some very expensive "PCB earrings" with a venture in stompbox making...I have that very much at the forefront of my mind with this. We'll see how the thing pans out, the price may well increase...but then my costs may come down if I can sell enough of these...well see. I probably need to do a run of 200...making that many coils and hand soldering that many circuits will take quite a bit of time...hmmm Still...have to have the thing worked out and running well before I can truly call it a "quality product". It's kind of a balancing act...too much in the aesthetics and everything else, and the whole venture could collapse. If all goes well, I think there is enormous potential...so I will continue, shall I...what else am I going to do anyway ...and I have already spent so much on this over the years, in so many ways...either this work and I will have to consider abandoning the whole thing and move on to something else... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebenezer shred Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 are you going to be posting a layout of the circuit you've created? I've been awaiting one, putting off building a fetzer/ruby because I assume your circuit is better, or is there already one somewhere that i missed somehow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2007 are you going to be posting a layout of the circuit you've created? I've been awaiting one, putting off building a fetzer/ruby because I assume your circuit is better, or is there already one somewhere that i missed somehow? I was waiting for someone to ask me this...Unfortunately...NO. (I am even exploring ways to encapsulate the circuit so as to prevent it being ripped off and copied, and deliberately obscuring components, etc. I have even got a couple of false traces on the proposed PCB for this purpose and possible tweaking if there are problems after PCB manufacture. If I am to succeed in making this available and at a reasonable cost, some things, like the coil machine, will have to be kept secret. I have no doubts that the availability of the coil will inspire more knowledgeable people to develop their own designs and post them....so development will continue in an "open source" kind of way as exemplified by this thread. I have thought about this, and have an alternate design, without the limiting and drive function of my circuit that is likely to be simple, yet an improvement on the fetzer/ruby. The basic ideas were tested and so could be mocked up for the public. This could also be a side project, since I am buying parts in bulk, to make a cost effective "kit of parts" for people to DIY this design. Good point, and I know Col was thinking of doing something similar with opamps as a DIY standard circuit. Sorry...that is the state of play there... Given the problems and expense many have run into acquiring the components and getting the circuit running, I think the purchase of my pre-made design will be preferable. I am aware that I need to compete commercially, not only with the other makers, but the DIY'ers too. Hope you understand...pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth_David Posted August 25, 2007 Report Share Posted August 25, 2007 (edited) Pete, as you are taking into consideration the possibility of tax relief, what about checking out local colleges and universities in order to see whether any bright young sparks might be interested in helping you with the skills you lack for this enterprise, or whose skills complement your own? There used to be several schemes available in the UK allowing one to take on an apprentice with tax relief etc., I don't know whether there are similar incentives in Oz? Many prefer to 'go it alone', but at the end of the day, you only have so much energy and so much time as an individual, and the only real feedback or different perspective you have at present would I presume come from your interaction with these online forums. The right help would free you up to continue with your other projects too, so that you do not end up totally trapped by your commitments to this project. Another consideration to take into account is that once you are committed to a certain number of orders, should you become ill or whatever, you might find yourself in deep water, and just the stress could contribute to such a possibility. It also might not be a bad thing to get in touch with someone involved in a similar technology such as Kinman, and see what his reaction is to your invention(s). You need not reveal any more than can be obtained by reading the contents of this thread, and you both stand to gain from such an encounter, because you may just find that if he himself is not interested, (or more likely simply does not have the time free) then he might be able to put you in touch with someone who would be....just a thought. It might also be useful to have an insight into what makes him (or others like him) tick, how he started out, and how his initial philosophy has shifted over the years. But I imagine that he might well be very interested, particularly if the system could be integrated with his excellent pickups. Although, I feel that his prices are way disproportionate, as his pickups are one of the most expensive on the market, but like I said, he is just the first such manufacturer in Oz who springs to mind. And if you do decide to go commercial, you could do a lot worse than contacting Line 6. All they need do is produce the Variax in a really good guitar, fit your S********, and they would have a product to kill the Parker guitars, with no visible pickups and a great deal to offer to musicians. Another thing is that it seems to me that you really need to decide whether or not you want this to remain a DIY project, because if you decided instead to turn this into a business venture, you would presumably be entering in direct competition with rival manufacturers, and at your prices you would be significantly undercutting them, which might present problems. What many now seem to be doing, especially in Canada and the USA, is farming out the electronics circuit manufacture to China or Taiwan, where the cheap labour can allow you to keep prices to a minimum, but then of course your circuit would need to have reached that stage of development or maturity, and you would also need to be able to invest in a sufficiently large bulk order to make it worth their while, say runs of 100. However, if your main interest is as previously stated, to keep the price of the s******** within the reach of the musician in the street, which implies a more altruistic philosophy, then there is little point in compromising that goal by seeking to make a commercially viable venture out of this, otherwise you will eventually find yourself charging similar prices to those of the commercial manufacturers. One positive point is that you have a captive market, in that you know that you do not have to invest in large scale advertising for your product, because you know from this and other forums who might be interested in purchasing it (Although putting their money where their mouth is might prove a little more complicated), and chances are that by word of mouth you will also reach the luthiers and repairers who presently fit the Fernandes system because that is what is available. It is my feeling that certain members of the forum seem to be coercing you into making this into a commercial venture, and you need to discern for yourself whether or not you intend to maintain your altruistic approach or in contrast decide to take on the big guys, or perhaps find some happy medium between the two extremes. David Edited August 25, 2007 by Truth_David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onelastgoodbye Posted August 25, 2007 Report Share Posted August 25, 2007 +1 Take it one step at a time. Find some beta-testers (preferrably with different types of guitars) first. And hold off any big investments until you get feedback. I'd also try and contact some people who have actual guitar-related business experience; like rhoads56 and kevan (bet he'll now his way around the licensing thing); though you'll probably have thought of that yourself already. Otherwise, let me know if I can be of help with simplifiyng the manufacturing : prototyping side of things etc.., you know where to find me Tim p.s. have you thought about alternatives to epoxy, like polyurethane or polyester? Usually cheaper and a bit less toxic hassle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebenezer shred Posted August 25, 2007 Report Share Posted August 25, 2007 are you going to be posting a layout of the circuit you've created? I've been awaiting one, putting off building a fetzer/ruby because I assume your circuit is better, or is there already one somewhere that i missed somehow? I was waiting for someone to ask me this...Unfortunately...NO. (I am even exploring ways to encapsulate the circuit so as to prevent it being ripped off and copied, and deliberately obscuring components, etc. I have even got a couple of false traces on the proposed PCB for this purpose and possible tweaking if there are problems after PCB manufacture. If I am to succeed in making this available and at a reasonable cost, some things, like the coil machine, will have to be kept secret. I have no doubts that the availability of the coil will inspire more knowledgeable people to develop their own designs and post them....so development will continue in an "open source" kind of way as exemplified by this thread. I have thought about this, and have an alternate design, without the limiting and drive function of my circuit that is likely to be simple, yet an improvement on the fetzer/ruby. The basic ideas were tested and so could be mocked up for the public. This could also be a side project, since I am buying parts in bulk, to make a cost effective "kit of parts" for people to DIY this design. Good point, and I know Col was thinking of doing something similar with opamps as a DIY standard circuit. Sorry...that is the state of play there... Given the problems and expense many have run into acquiring the components and getting the circuit running, I think the purchase of my pre-made design will be preferable. I am aware that I need to compete commercially, not only with the other makers, but the DIY'ers too. Hope you understand...pete I totally understand what you mean. I realize how much work you've put into this, and I understand how pissed off I would be if I did all that work then some little punk makes the same circuit and starts selling them under his own name. I guess I'll build the fetzer/ruby, then tweak it myself. An alternative design would probably be cool as well. And I see that the most prominent part of the diy thing would be designing better drivers. If you were gonna have people test them I'd be more than willing to be a beta tester and give a lot of feedback. Also I think a thread is in order for all the layouts and picture of people's new drivers, sustainer guitars, designs, concepts that have been posted all around this thread. They're all really nice and helpful but hard to find. That's all IMO, but I think it'd be useful (or a table of contents). Thanks anyways -John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2007 Thanks Guys...I do need to step back a bit... One bit at a time... CurtisA has agreed to be the first tester. He is ideal because, not only is he knowledgeable in the electronics side of things and this project, he successfully made a DIY Sustainer similar to my own on which this thing is based. He will easily be able to compare my new circuit with the basic one he uses now. He also tells me that he has a spare pacifica HSS guitar, so he is prepared to use that to test the circuit and the coil, plus the installation. Fantastic...I also have contacted Rhodes56, Perry has shown some interest in this project before, is a top notch professional builder and repairer and doesn't hold back with his opinions. He also has experience with building the commercial systems into some of his customers guitars. He is very busy at the moment, and I haven't heard back yet, but another ideal candidate. To that end, I have enough stuff now to make a few of these things so I have redone the vero layout to exactly match that of the PCB layout and built one yesterday. Have five planned and boards prepared. These will be used by myself for my installation, and for these first few testers. It will be impractical to build any quantity in vero, but this should assure me of the concept and the circuitry. If taht works out, getting 200 boards does not mean I need to build them all! I will have to get back to the drivers now...next chance I will do a "run" of them to see how that goes in a mass production kind of way. p.s. have you thought about alternatives to epoxy, like polyurethane or polyester? Usually cheaper and a bit less toxic hassle. Yes, but the epoxy is cheap and gel like so it doesn't spin out of the machine. It is also fast acting and strong...this means the coil can be removed from the machine while "green" and then put in a simple press to cure while the next is being wound. You don't want anything that will allow the coil to loose shape or to curl up like a banana from it's inner tension. I built the machine very portable so that I can do this outside...except for the mess on the hands (I wear gloves) so far there hasn't been a problem...it is a concern. I will send you some details of how I am doing it as you have had more experience in epoxy winding than most. I also designed the machine to be simple and adaptable to other designs (I didn't know that this one would work) that only such a machine could wind. It would be very difficult to impossible to make these particular coils by hand...they have to be very tight to fit in the space allowed for them. If I were to invest time and energy into the machine, I dare say it could wind five coils simultaneously and cured in the winding form work itself. The press to cure part is very simple, the form work is very tricky to make, my attempt to make another failed due to inaccuracies, making a perfect coil that wouldn't fit! There is a whole day's work right there!!! That's for the future and it with this kind of thing that I hope to increase productivity and profitability of the project. There is no point going down that road till I am sure the thing works and the venture a likely success. As for a business model...that can wait till the thing gets to that stage...we are still in development I guess. Right now...well I have to go to work and it is 4am...but, other than that...now that the prototyping phase is complete for now, I should put aside all that side of things and streamline my environment so that I can work on this project efficiently. This should help me take stock. I have been preparing component lists and suppliers and a few notes on the procedures involved so that these can form a routine and make the experience a bit more enjoyable...no point otherwise. Also I think a thread is in order for all the layouts and picture of people's new drivers, sustainer guitars, designs, concepts that have been posted all around this thread. They're all really nice and helpful but hard to find. That's all IMO, but I think it'd be useful (or a table of contents). This has been discussed before and I even attempted it about 150 pages ago...there is a view function that shows posts on a thread a line at a time...that makes it easier to see what and who was discussing things along the time line. A lot of the information is obsolete but a great resource of ideas. The project I am working on now is what I consider the best of these ideas and ambitions. People have always requested that the thing look like a pickup, that it be hidden well this does that. The coil has been found to work well thin...I used 3mm coils, Col and Avalon 2mm...now I am down to 1mm with success. Bobbinless/coreless coils, no need for difficult and costly bobbin and core making. A simple small circuit purpose built, but with some degree of control while still offering the freak out feedback effect...this circuit has limiting that is overloaded at max settings. LED's...power on the circuit. Problems with building and finding supplies, inconsistancies in construction...I am offering to build them. What we are moving towards if this is successful is a forum of it's own I suspect. A new start with different sections for driver development, circuits and to provide support for uses of this device, and an avenue to share the musical results that come from it. First things first is to step back a little...get a couple of these out to testers, install my own completely and take it from there. Thanks for the support and advice. Of course this frenetic energy in this project is personal avoidance of other issues in my life. Some things can't be "fixed" and avoidance and staying occupied is not such a bad idea. Do need to take a little better care of myself and of course there are other obligations too...better go to work, that's one of them... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crep Posted August 25, 2007 Report Share Posted August 25, 2007 Ok. so, here's the guitar, only the emg left on it. And here's the sustainer, and the circuit also. (sorry for the quality) steel bar on it and 120 rounds of wire. lots of glue. 7.5 ohms. one side of a double humbucker magnet on it. well, the problem is that when the preamp trimmer is low, the sustainer doesn't works, and if I turn up the trimmer i get really lots of noise. if I put the driver near the up side of the neck i have no noise and the sustainer works, but not as well as yours. don't really know why. wired as usual, driver - fr - guitar out. don't really know how to solve it. maybe someone with emgs has the same problem? maybe i have to rebuild the f/r? i followed the layout, and as an amp it works... thanks for help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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