Truth_David Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 I think a CAT5 LAN cable would be a perfect fit for this application, but is just one of many good options. I have also used the Neutrik 7-pin connector on a Sterling Audio tube condenser mic that I was using for recording recently, and that is another very good idea. That one sturdy cable supplies power+, power-, signal, signal, ground, and I suppose two more connections (7-pin total) that it uses. It looks kind of like a midi or a remote footswitch cable connection. *Yes, but the thing about the CAT5 cable is that it is also maleable and very lightweight. Mike cables and most other cables tend to be very stiff due to the amount of shielding as well as very heavy. In fact my stompbox floorboard does not weigh anything like as much witho t the cables. I have a Line 6 Cable that powers my Shortboard, and it is actually pretty compact. I would also like to find a way of interfacing using the Shortboard, as it already has a footcontroller built in and is a really excellent footpedal board. But Line 6 intentionally designed it to be useless in any application outside of its intended purpose. However I am sure that it would function very well as a midi controller. It also has an excellent LCD display and assignable footswitches. I also have a Visual Sound One Spot, and it really does power everything at once, really excellent! Your idea could work, but I also really like the Line 6 A/B switching idea that is part of the same system, thus enabling one to send one sound to the amp and another to the desk or whatever. They mostly conceived that for the acoustic Variax models, but there may be other reasons for wanting to send certain sounds direct to the desk when using the sustainer..... But if that could be incorporated in some way with something similar to the Shortboard, that would provide midi expression control and control over the switching combinations of the sustainer/magnetic p/ups, I believe this would be a very powerful and versatile setup. David -MRJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Thanks guys, lots of great ideas and encouragement... These are all interesting ideas that perhaps could be left for those who seek to have such a complicated system, for now simplicity is the key I feel, get this done in as much a cost effective and approachable way to as many people who would like to try it... Also, the more adventurous I become (and I am tempted) the longer and more frustrating the whole thing becomes...look at the hex driver things, a year in development and while the ideas fed the simple model, that only took two weeks to develop and install to working prototype... With the Variax (I'm tempted to get one myself one day BTW), the conditioning may be that the output of the piezo's are stronger or weaker and have too much quack...also one would have to be able to take a direct feed from them (requiring a basic circuit diagram perhaps) in order to connect it, I don't think you'd want to take the signal for the driver from a sitar for instance! I think the Variax can be used without batteries if power is supplied by an external box and special lead...much better idea and makes the guitar lighter too. Since we are used to plugging our guitars into an amp via a lead anyway, and the amp is mains powered, that shouldn't be a problem. it was as beautiful as your alloy driver with the mobile phone LEDs rolleyes.gif , or perhaps even a wood enclosed unit. As for adapting this coil to a stand alone driver...you are looking at a coil the size and shape of a single coil pickup bobbin but only 1mm thick. 5mmx1mm neodymium magnets could be inserted like poles and this covered with a thin veneer of plastic or timber. The driver will need to be pretty close to the strings and fitted near the neck. If Magnetic pickups are to be used with the variax, perhaps one bridge HB feeding the s*stainer would be enough to give a magnetic pickup option for those wanting something to supplement the digital Variax sounds and would drive the device without any modifications to my circuit or the Variax (a much safer approach) and require no bypassing. Simple toggles would easily provide visual and tactile indication of the s*stainers status. As for LED indication...I have built the power for these into the circuit but they could add noise...they could even be built into the pickup adapter between the poles if you had a mind to, but this is really a novelty and not a necessity. Funny, with some of my experiments I using LED's as diodes in a feedback loop for compression, different colors provide different characteristics...these light up effectively, only when played and kind of follow the signal in brightness!!! The design I am settling on does not use these, but it was tempting to have these external as indicator lights... I am reminded of col's observations, the extra power draw and the short lived of the novelty aspect, and while having the connections on board, am unlikely to use them myself...with my proposed application, you will know it is on by the pickup selector and the fact it is working! The coil and circuit can still be really 'cheap' compared to the commercial designs, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't make a profit! No...I'm not a charity, but I am not very good at pricing my own things...I will be of course factoring in time and some R&D into this...there may even be some tax incentives...but I am hoping that if this is moderately successful, it will allow the funds and encouragement to take this further. I don't think I will be going to SMD or even PCB's quite yet...it appears to be possible to make something pretty small with the methods I am currently using (certainly smaller than the present commercial units) so I will start there. The layout for the connections is pretty intuitive at the moment. As for quick connections...I have looked into this type of thing before and tried a few things. Even if I use them, they will still need to be soldered to the other ends of the guitar's electronics and there is no getting around a complete rewire for most guitars. This type of installation modification can be a bit tricky and I suspect there will be a few hurdles to overcome in developing it. I was thinking of supplying a CD with instructions and stuff (easier and cheaper than paper). If people are concerned, they could get this done by any guitar repairer and it would be a lot easier and cheaper than installing the present systems which also require such a service. Guitar repairers are also an obvious market for this device...I could offer this to them as an option for their customers and so provide a client base for me and work for them...win/win! *This sounds as though the idea is to enable those presently sitting on the wall like me to actively participate in the ongoing development of this technology....and I think this is a brilliant idea. That way we have access to the input of a far greater proportion of players who might not necessarily have the aptitude towards the DIY construction and modification of their instruments, but who might nevertheless have a great deal to contribute in terms of ideas and in deciding what does and what does not work for them in a live or recording environment. Essentially it would be like having a worldwide and large R&D team who did not need to be paid. Exactly...and this is the fantastic thing about this thread and forums like this...it allows the "open source" model to greatly increase input into things like this. Keeping things small time allows for some degree of flexibility on my part too. Making my own coils means I can do them in such a way as to be very compact and unique (it would be hard to see how an automated machine could spin these out) and adaptable. There has been some call for 7 string models for instance...with this idea, all I really need to do is make form work for a slightly longer coil, this one off cost on my part gives me this option (still a days work mind). An HB model is going to be tricky and more expensive but may yield better performance. *Well, there must be an advantage to using a combination of AA 1.5 volt batteries, as in Juán's case. He was saying that using only 6v produced better longevity in the power source. AA batteries do provide a better power source, it is not really the voltage that is crucial but the current...AA batteries have a better capacity in this regard. Excessive current draw is the battery killer and may rule out mobile batteries and such that are designed for lower power devices...there is no getting around this, this device needs that current to physically move the strings. Still a 9 volt battery does provide adequate service, a rechargeable 9 volt is an option and perhaps I could develop something that has the option of both a rechargeable internal battery and remote power that also recharges it when powered externally...if you get the idea... ....... So...things are reasonably progressing...I have a refined circuit to try...will need to get some more components to build prototypes, I suspect. I have not done any material costing as yet, but it is looking pretty good, there are no excessively exotic components and nothing that will suddenly go obsolete. It may be possible to use SMD components for the larger electrolytic caps which take the most space (there are 4 or 5 on there) but they can be a little expensive in small quantities and tricky to handly...easier than most SMD's for hand soldering though as they are not that small. Tantalum caps are also something to explore, a little more expensive, but may work well to replace some large components and make things easier. I have taken great care to develop layouts that allow for the larger caps to lay on their side to reduce the thickness of the board while still being compact. I have in mind ways to cut and make the necessary track cuts accurately with a jig, avoiding the need for PCB's, though this may be an option down the track. Keeping control of the whole manufacturing process has it's advantages as I am not at the mercy of suppliers and keeps the design adaptable. I am sure the MKI of this will evolve a little with small improvements along the way as peoples experiences with it feed back into the R&D side of things. For the moment, this thing will be aiming directly at Stratocaster type guitars as I do need to have a known base to work from. This means I can develop a sure system that can be installed in a specific way for specific results. Further applications will result from people adapting the system to their needs. It is likely the kit as is will work for P90's for instance, but I don't have one to try. Different switching can be worked out, but I won't be able to test every variation. More variations will arise no doubt with the HB model as the super-switch is not likely to be an option here (if that is successful)... Also, I have no patents on these things and may be infringing on others, so this is still something to consider...I am sure the two makers and considerable number of patent holders will not be happy about this. Protection of the design may require me to be a little secretive, but reverse engineering will be easy for these guys...the manufacturing procedure is probably the best protection (hence there is no pictures of the winding machine, much as I'd like to show you all, or the making of the coil...not really a DIY proposition in this format anyway...) I am confident though that no patents exist for this particular design and it's details or application and that this thread alone and a huge box of prototypes would secure a prior art on my part. I dont think you will see ads in Guitar Player anytime soon advertising my work though Anyway...rambling again, so should be off...not sleeping to well lately and it is early morning here (I work odd shift times and days BTW) hence I have these hours to be here or to do quiet development on the project here and there. While this situation exists, I have the luxury of spending time on this and that is why I am pushing it while I can. Once developed, I can build up a stockpile of components and coils and supply on demand, limiting costs and making a profitable use of this time. If I can show even a small profit, I can justify a business and so tax deduct expenses...that could include new guitars and other business related items offset against my real wage, as well as R&D costs. Unfortunately, I am also in the situation where I pay a third of my income in child maintenance, even though I hope to have more access to the children, there are incentives then to keep my income low! As a side note, my beautiful and talented (both musically (violin, flute, keyboards, guitar...you name it, she seems to be able to pick it up, and can sight read!) and technologically (she likes science and maths)...all of which I struggle with) has shown some interest in this project. I dare say, although only twelve(!!!) she could be a wiz a soldering and packaging and posting and beats working in MacD's in a year or so I imagine...that would be a cool after school job and greatly enhance our relationship in the future. All good reasons to follow this path at this time, and to deveolp more things along this line as a cottage industry... I said I was going...better go then... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 Well...I will have to put things off for a little while, maybe next week... I got a few more supplies and built another circuit...this time I have used some tantalum caps and some SMD's to further reduce the size of this thing. I am also getting a feel for the material cost. These types of components are more expensive, but can be more reliable and obviously smaller...most components are still normal through hole... Unfortunately...although I tried to replicate my "magic" circuit (which still works well) I failed to do so. The improvement I have been working on is a type of limiter, unfortunately this circuit is too effective at that! Having re-studied the "magic" circuit, I think I have more of a feel for what is happening and I will attempt to modify it when I get a moment...otherwise, it will require a rebuild. I think I am on the right track though and have made a few further improvements in the practical design and the layout while making it about 20mm smaller in length...35x20mm, less than an inch square for the entire device (not including switching)...very cute! One improvement is a trim pot to either, adjust the maximum drive of the warp control or it will function, with a jumper between two of the connector pins, if an set-and-forget installation without the warp control is wanted...basically an off and on board control option. LED power and reverse polarity protection has been added to the design. I am considering adding power conditioning to the circuit but this does add expense and problems in layout...I will have to see what benefit, if any, this could provide. Given the small number of components in this circuit, I think the SMD/Tantalum approach is a good way to go...may as well spend a few extra dollars for quality, space saving and reliability. Have started a spread sheet of costs and suppliers but development is very time consuming, so this "cost" is very difficult to gauge at this point... So...a little more time on the circuit and I should have it down...then we'll have to tackle the installation procedures which could be tricky and may need some assistance advice and of course encouragement! For all the good ideas brought forward for the future, lets keep it simple for now... check you later, time for sleep... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie Brad Posted August 15, 2007 Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 Have you got it working with the 9 high strings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 15, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2007 No...and it doesn't look like it is going to, doesn't mean you couldn't use them but the high e is not going to respond properly to sustain or harmonics. It works with 10's on my other guitar and this is what is recommended by the commercial units too. The reason is that there is not enough mass, or steel in these strings for the magnetic action to have much effect, that is why it is easy to get the lower strings to respond and they tend to dominate. A bass guitar string will respond even better! This is the same reason that you get a much better tone with heavier strings...the pickups have more to work with. To get a compromise, many players (Hendrix, SRV, etc) tune down (Eb) to give less tension and the feel of lighter strings with the tone of heavier ones. I personally have always used 10's but had always been a Gibson player in the past and the shorter scale also gives this feel. I tend to play strats now and the fender sound is largely a result of this slightly longer scale and I still feel it. The sustainer can help things a little when it's on for some techniques (tapping, etc) as it automatically drives quieter nots louder. I still have the 9's that came with the test guitar on it, but will have to switch over soon. Oh...and before I forget, welcome Newbie Brad to the Sustainer Thread... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crep Posted August 17, 2007 Report Share Posted August 17, 2007 Ok guys here we are, wire has arrived yesterday from uk... so, i've made the ruby/feltz amp (the diy fever one project). i'm doing the driver. it will be a little single coil. only two simple questions for you. can I use this layout for wiring the guitar? is there something wrong? what's that big looking dual switch down there? do you have something better? (i have a single passive coil and an emg81 hb) thanks a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted August 17, 2007 Report Share Posted August 17, 2007 Ok guys here we are, wire has arrived yesterday from uk... so, i've made the ruby/feltz amp (the diy fever one project). i'm doing the driver. it will be a little single coil. only two simple questions for you. can I use this layout for wiring the guitar? is there something wrong? what's that big looking dual switch down there? do you have something better? (i have a single passive coil and an emg81 hb) thanks a lot. At first glance, that diagram looks ok - however there is another problem You have an active bridge pickup which is known to complicate things with sustainers. I don't know all the details, however, heres a quick idea as to one possible issue... If you have a separate battery for the sustainer and one for the pickup circuit, you are likely to get earth loop problems... one circuit loading the other or causing feedback , noise, dc offsets etc... if you try to power both circuits from the same battery, you are likely to have issue with the pickup circuit not getting enough juice when the sustainer driver is running. IIRC, there is more info on this topic on the Sustainiac website - in this respect their commercial system is probably similar to our diy version. Do yo have a passive pickup to try if the active one doesn't work out? or maybe a second guitar to develop your diy sustainer on ? cheers Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2007 Hi Crep... Looks ok, but those dark lines from the middle to bottom poles of the switches aren't wires I gather but connected when switched... I am not sure of problems with active pickups except that probably not a good idea to run it from the same battery. Problems like this are causing me to be concerned about the sustainer's power supply and am so considering adding rectification to my circuit...any thoughts on this col... Meanwhile, been swamped with work and kids lately so will have to wait till next week to do much work, but pushing ahead...progress can be frustrating. Also, the guys at Guitarnuts2 have posted a diagram that will allow my switching of the sustainer with a superswitch including turning the power on so that the sustainer and all bypassing will occur on a strat guitar in position 4 of the pickup selector (previously bridge and middle)...this will replace the entire 4pdt switch to operate it. Now if I could only find a 1k linear pot with push pull, I would have the ultimate stealth installation with no-mods!!!! Anyone know of a way of changing a pot's value, I thought I'd heard that a resistor across it could change it's value? What I need to do next is work out what exactly is happening with my magic circuit and devise a best possible layout for it. This circuit is likely to be adequate for a MKI version and certainly superior to the Fetzer Ruby and my original circuit...pretty small too. I don't want the release of this to be delayed by too much circuit development even though I am sure a MKII version may be following on it's heels. There are still related time consuming associated projects (like a HB version) that are to follow. The good thing is that this circuitry should easily be swapped out for newer versions without the replacement of the driver or rewiring the guitar again once the basic design is successfully installed. These things do take a bit of time, but am on the way...have had a great response from people interested in this development of the project and the more people experiment with this the more any problems can be ironed out. I will be looking at sending out the first batch to selected people who are prepared to help with these potential problems and then it should be all set.... Better get going, next week I should have more of an idea where this is heading. I will also need to change those strings to ensure high string response 'cause at present, I am getting no sustain on the high e at all. My staggered pole under the b string is also too low and will likely need to be addressed...it works but not as well, this will require some modification, either an extension to the pole or pushing the pole up through the bobbin...more risky. All thoughts and encouragement still required... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crep Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 (edited) i taught to power those circuits separately...damn, i haven't taught about ground problems...well, i'll try. all of us learn with mistakes. sorry but my english sucks normally, and now i'm also a bit drunk...good night guys and thanks again. little question, that big switch shown in the diagram, of what tipe is? are two switches together? can't understand... edit, found something... EMG pickups have reversed electrical polarity from most popular passive pickups. The way to deal with this is simple: Just reverse the red/black driver wires from that shown in the installation diagrams. By this, we mean the two wires that are contained inside the shielded driver wire. The shield wire (the un-insulated wire) connects to guitar ground as usual. We recommend that you use SEPARATE 9-VOLT BATTERIES for the active pickups and the sustainer. Edited August 18, 2007 by Crep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 No problem Crep... That big switch is a 4PDT...I used a toggle switch, it is just 2xDPDT switches that switch at once, it is quite big and I paid about $7 for it, but on the front of the guitar it looks exactly the same as a normal mini toggle switch. You need to make sure you have enough room to orientate it and fit it in the control cavity the way you want. That is partly why I am aiming to incorporate it into the pickup selector on strat type guitars with a super-switch, but the 4PDT or even a 4PDT rotary would do the job. I can imagine that some smart person, perhaps even myself, will come up with a practical optional electronic switching circuit to make this a lot easier, anything I can think of at present is quite complicated and takes up a bit of space, and of course, even more power! I am learning quite a bit so as I do so, the electronic side of thing may become a little more intuitive...at the moment my methods are largely by trial and error. The main thing is that the circuit works as expected for it's purpose, as all circuits are being tested right on the guitar with the new driver, I am fairly confident that what works, will work! I will be sending it out to be trialled by selected guinea pigs to iron out variations between guitars...my test guitar has a bridge HB for instance, low noise and a fair bit of power, will the same results come from a typical strat? Will the coil install as easily on different makes of pickups as it has on mine? I may even need to survey peoples pickup dimensions to ensure these things will fit in there, or if there will need to be alterations in the design, or slightly different models (I hope not)... The pickup I am trying it on (an alnico squier single coil with staggered poles) seems pretty typical of a traditional single coil for this type of guitar. Right now though, I am bogged down with the circuitry, hopefully next week I will have made more significant progress with this, at least in my (codenamed) "magic circuit", but there are a few other tricks I may wish to try. Better get some sleep and then it is up at 4am for the work week, 3 days more before I can do any practical work on this... later... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crep Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 (edited) how did you cut the cd back cover plastic to fit in the blade? with the dremel I have a lot of plastic mess...i did the single coil, but I haven't enough space on my guitar, i would have an alternative tiny blade coil to fit in it... thanks edit... guys, i have some troubles. did the coil with glue, and it does about 7.5 ohms...well, i connected the guitar jack to the in of the ruby, and ruby's out to a speaker and to the coil. no switches, it's only a fast try. well, i can hear the guitar, but seems that the coil doesn't affect it. nothing happens if i put it near the strings. lots of noise if I put it over the pickups. i hear the radio, but it's quite normal as i live under a transmitter...i hear it from everywhere, maybe from the fridge also. any suggestion, or question? Edited August 18, 2007 by Crep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 That's the way to test it...EXCEPT...don't connect the speaker AND the coil..it can only drive one...use the speaker to test that the amp is working, then stick to the driver. You have to hold the driver above the strings over the fretboard, well away from the pickups. You should run the signal directly from the bridge pickup(before any controls), you may want to disconnect the middle pickup completely to be sure that it is bypassed also, since you are using no switches. The driver must have a magnet in it...otherwise, it could act as an aerial picking up interference, the controls also add to this effect if the signal is taken from the jack. Try also reversing the driver leads, this will switch modes, harmonic mode tends to do this more! how did you cut the cd back cover plastic to fit in the blade? with the dremel I have a lot of plastic mess...i did the single coil, but I haven't enough space on my guitar, i would have an alternative tiny blade coil to fit in it... thanks I find CD plastic very hard to work with, it is very brittle...I really haven't used it at all for the reasons you are describing. It is largely what is so appealing about the new bobbin-less design I am using for this new driver. I am not sure how small you seek to make this thing, in your diagram, the driver replaces the neck pickup, that should be more than enough room, no? Perhaps a few pics of the guitar or a diagram or dimensions of what you are seeking to eventually build for the guitar will help... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crep Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 (edited) Ok, this is my guitar this is the diagram (it comes from a kind person of emg) i used to wire the guitar with that unusual configuration. obviously that guitar don't come with that single coil. i think to do another hole, place the single coil in a middle position and put the sustainer driver where the single is now. suggestions? Edited August 18, 2007 by Crep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 Well...obviously I'm biased, but this is a perfect application for the kit I am working on . With DIY, I'd adapt the single coil to be a pickup driver and use it as a neck pickup with the sustainer off. For testing I would completely disconnect the single coil for a bit and test the device above the fretboard till it works, then work out the installation/switching problems to reinstate the single coil. A neck pickup will give you more tonal variation than a middle pickup, and as it is already there, mounting and everything is already taken care of. Not sure about that angle, but it shouldn't effect the efficiency of the driver I suspect, so why not! If you have already successfully made a coil, then use that for testing before modifying a pickup (that's what I did) then remake it on the pickup when you know it will work (not before) and then worry about the bypassing and rewire. It is good to have a plan, but one thing at a time! The wiring and guitar look fine for this project, but if you are happy with the neck pickup sound and everything, there is no point in compromising, adapting the pickup will probably be easier than making a stand alone driver in the long run. good luck, meanwhile....I am making every effort to have my "thing" move beyond the prototype stage...keep up the encouragement, every bit helps...this is extremely time consuming... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flickoflash Posted August 18, 2007 Report Share Posted August 18, 2007 Ok, this is my guitar this is the diagram (it comes from a kind person of emg) i used to wire the guitar with that unusual configuration. obviously that guitar don't come with that single coil. i think to do another hole, place the single coil in a middle position and put the sustainer driver where the single is now. suggestions? has anyone made one that is stealth in a Les paul ? http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/tonefreaks...or-project.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2007 Hi there flickoflash...I thought you guys were working on that??? Seriously, just looked in because I am home from work today so doing a bit of work on this instead and making good progress...Some very interesting unexpected things coming up, octave drops and crazy synth type sounds from the misuse of certain components...these will not be a feature of my "product", but do demonstrate some hidden secret off the wall effects are possible, even if they can be a bit harsh on the ears and unpredictable!!! Also, there is a lot to the power supply of this thing that I had not realized and noise, fizz, whatever is coming from this part of the circuit. The amount of current draw, available voltage and the state of the battery can have quite an influence on the performance of this thing. I tried a 5v+ regulator in an attempt to even things out, but this too added strange effects...all a bit odd, and I don't know what that is...works better without it, so out it stays and will try different strategies. I have a feeling it is to do with an uneven current availability, not the voltage, so regulating that does not seem to help. Now...back to flicko's question... I am working on a "product" derived from my long (years) of research and development of this thing and the cumulative suggestions of all the contributors here. In part it is in an attempt to address the difficulties for people to get into this and collect the necessary materials to make it work. At first I thought I could just supply a kit of parts, but now I realize that this still will have a lot of problems and I can't be sure that people will be able to get the thing to work in that format. However, if I make both the coil and the circuit, I can protect it to quite a degree and save a lot of angst troubleshooting it from the other side of the world! To that end, I have completely revised the circuit to provide more control and features, much smaller circuit (about an inch square) and improved performance. I have also developed a coil design that can fit under a conventional single coil pickup cover turning the pickup into a driver/pickup without modifying it in any way (i.e. it is reversible procedure). I even have plans to use a super switch on a strat to activate the device so it will be as easy as changing pickup selections. As for a les paul...HB pickups will be more complex. This would most likely work on a P90 as is, but for an HB driver, you would need a more complicated design and these pickups are harder to modify... It is possible and once this is going I fully intend to branch out into this area for all those people with HB equipped guitars. It is likely that a rotary control, taking the place of a tone, could be used for the functions of the sustainer, or toggle switches added (but that would be a permanent mod of course. There is plenty of room in a Les Paul control cavity for the battery and circuit however and can easily be replaced from the back (unlike a strat's scratch plate) which is a good thing. So...in principle it would not be a problem so much, but a bit tricky and a little more expensive. You would get to keep your neck pickup (this device of mine does not replace pickups, it uses their magnetic field instead of having it's own magnets) unlike present systems. It would also be remarkably cheaper than present systems with less installation concerns, so that is a really neat side of the thing. So the answer is, not yet, but eventually...the same circuitry could be used, it is a matter of making and manufacturing suitable driver coils and working out how to get them onto a HB pickup in some stealthy way. Most likely it would be in the form of a thin plate that fitted onto the pickup itself and held on by the screw poles...it could be manufactured to look much like the existing bobbins of the pickup, but most likely use a blade on the slug side coil for even string bending sustain and ease of manufacture. It is unlikely that a conventional nickel/brass cover would be able to be used, but you never know. BTW...in some tests, I have been getting the 0.9 high e to move, but the response is much less than the b string for instance. It really struggles in harmonic mode, but in fundamental mode, it may be passable for those who can't bear to move up a gauge. better get back too it... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col Posted August 19, 2007 Report Share Posted August 19, 2007 ...Also, there is a lot to the power supply of this thing that I had not realized and noise, fizz, whatever is coming from this part of the circuit. The amount of current draw, available voltage and the state of the battery can have quite an influence on the performance of this thing. I tried a 5v+ regulator in an attempt to even things out, but this too added strange effects...all a bit odd, and I don't know what that is...works better without it, so out it stays and will try different strategies. I have a feeling it is to do with an uneven current availability, not the voltage, so regulating that does not seem to help. Hmm, I was going to reply to your ideas about using a rectifier, but it seems you've already realised through experimentation that it's not going to help you. First I'll assume that you are working with a 'virtual ground' circuit. In 'normal' signal circuits you would have a positive rail (+15v) and a negative rail(-15v) with the signal varying around earth at 0v... Unfortunately there is no easy way to provide this using a single battery (it can be done, but its more stuff to fit on the board). So what we do with battery circuits is create a 'virtual ground' basically the positive rail is 9v, the negative rail is 0v and the 'earth' that the signal alternates around is half way between so for us 4.5v. The simplest way to provide this is some sort of potential divider... (Many simple transistor circuits don't do this, they use a biasing resistor to set the correct operating region so there is enough headroom for the signal on both positive and negative swing) so you often see a 100k between the signal and 9v and a 100k between the signal and 0v... Unfortunately using a simple approach like this is a compromise - if you use low value resistors like 1k, you lose some of your juices straight through them... however if you go for 100k instead to give better efficiency, the virtual earth loses some stability.... in many circuits it works fine, but when you start demanding large currents from the battery, all bets are off ! What I did in my circuit is a technique I read about where you use an op-amp to 'buffer' the virtual earth ! - just like you use them to buffer the signal - this protects the earth from being loaded by the rest of the circuit and stabilizes it... of course it adds the extra cost of an op-amp and a few other components... look at the highlighted section - its the standard 100k 100k divider buffered by an op-amp - so one extra op-amp sectin and one extra cap... maybe this is what you need (or at least need to try If you are using an op-amp section for your input buffer, then a dual op-amp would provide for both power buffer and signal input buffer. Col Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crep Posted August 19, 2007 Report Share Posted August 19, 2007 ok pete so i'll be the first european beta tester for your kit! well, i'm thinking to put the driver over that single coil as you did in the pictorial...but is quite difficult to find the right way to do it... what do you mean when you say "adapting the pickup"? put the driver over or under it or something new? thanks bad news also, the driver doesn't work at all. maybe the wire is too spaced. i have definetly to rebuild it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth_David Posted August 19, 2007 Report Share Posted August 19, 2007 ok pete so i'll be the first european beta tester for your kit! No way Crep, you'll have to queue, I reckon I get first dibs for Europe ! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2007 Col...yes, perhaps something like that would improve things, have sent you a PM...otherwise I have worked out why my "magic" circuit worked and am on a 5th incarnation of it...don't want to mess too much with the layout or increase size too much. I have been on a very steep learning curve, am using discrete components except for the LM386... Crep... ok pete so i'll be the first european beta tester for your kit! Actually I have had quite a bit of interest, is Turkey part of Europe now? what do you mean when you say "adapting the pickup"? put the driver over or under it or something new? I am avoiding posting pics just at the moment, though I did post this one... This was the very first coil made on the machine, the coil is very thin and is placed over the pickup and then the cover goes on and holds the coil securely in place...no glue or anything. The same concept as building it on the pickup but with this design there are no bobbins or metal work...the poles will look a little lower, perhaps even sunken into the cover (there will be a 1mm drop for the depth of the coil). bad news also, the driver doesn't work at all. maybe the wire is too spaced. i have definetly to rebuild it. Yes...well that is not unusual...I have had to make lots! The way I make this coil is not suitable for DIY, but should be cost effective compared to the time and materials spent making bobbins and seveal coil the DIY way...it should give people a really good leg up into this project...I will need help to make it a reality though... ........... There is still quite a bit to go, settling on a circuit design is a big step, as was the coil construction...there are still quite a few details there even. If I am to be able to make these things in any kind of limited quantity, I will need to have the construction methods down (jigs and stuff, especially while I am not using PCBs) and component supply (will probably have to buy some things in some bulk to be cost effective). There is still the whole installation process to be ironed out, I need to be sure that this will work and that I can troubleshoot problems people may encounter. Then there is the question of cost! To ensure small size and quality and in some respects to protect the design, I have started to use Tantalum and SMD caps, adding power regulation adds a couple of dollars of component cost right there, plus more labor. Already the vero board, small as it is, has a lot of track cuts and jumpers for what it is, soon it will require a PCB to be cost effective...something I was really hoping to wait till a mkII replacement circuit for which I already have ideas. It all adds up so I will have to be clever in all the areas of this if I am to make it a worthwhile proposition. Still...things are moving along, I was about to build my 5th version of this circuit design, but perhaps I should look into this power regulation issue and incorporate that. Am getting close to an installation phase (I already have the driver fitted and working in the guitar BTW, but the guitar only has the bridge pickup connected) but with luck, this will go together without too much hassle, GN2 have provided a rewire diagram and should be a valuable brains trust for people who want or need to do variations on this idea. Then there is the commercial side of things, instructions (possibly on CD), packaging and postage, plus getting some kind of internet pay system, maybe even a web site organized. Still a lot of work. Any advice or assistance will be appreciated in this things technical development or logistical aspects of getting this to a stage where it will be available on a wide scale...I am going to need it... better run... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crep Posted August 19, 2007 Report Share Posted August 19, 2007 turkey is in europe...but i'm italian! i hope you'll don't let us alone cause of your commercial ideas... but even if this happens, we'll thank you forever really nice pic, really nice idea...one possible way to do is make a fake bobbin, wire it, take the wire off the bobbin and put it over the pickup... we'll see...first i have to make a working prototype. 'nite all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 Ah...see the demand is already there!!! really nice pic, really nice idea...one possible way to do is make a fake bobbin, wire it, take the wire off the bobbin and put it over the pickup... we'll see...first i have to make a working prototype. Well yes, that is basically how this is made but to make it stand on it's own like this involves winding very tightly and resonably quickly with toxic epoxy, knowing exactly how many winds to do (difficult to measure with all that epoxy around and rubber gloves) and building the machine and accurate form work to make this possible... That's where I come in and it is this process that protects the idea, at least to an extent...doesn't really lend itself to typical mass production methods. Buying my coils will be way cheaper than trying to make your own by this method...remember I am competing not only against the commercial devices, but my own DIY versions!!!! Am working right now on what I hope will be the final prototype for the MKI circuit...I have even gone so far as to make a track cutting template to make preparing the boards easier, quicker and more accurate (perhaps I'm a little too confident here)... I will have to purchase a digital camera (instead of this low res camera phone I use)...also running low on a few components... As for the price...I have a rough idea of the cost but the components are a little expensive in small quantities. The amount of time to produce each one will be a major factor and I am hoping to streamline construction with an assembly line approach... So...how much? I am aiming for a total cost, not including switches which depend on your particular installation of about $80 Australian Dollars. The exchange rate fluctuates but today that would be about US$63 or 47 Euro (the Australian dollar is high at the moment). There would probably be a postage cost on top of that, but these things are small so shouldn't be too much to post. I am intending to do instructions on a CD. Opinions? Suggestions? This needs to be compared to Stompbox effects and replacement pickups I feel, as it is a similar product to both of these items. These guys wont provide the support and troubleshooting I am anticipating continuing to do. The initial few will be a little cheaper in exchange for testing data. Subsequent versions of circuits should be able to be built to plug right in as replacements, or used for peoples own driver experiments. My circuit design specifics may be kept under wraps, but will be encouraging people to develop their own ideas in circuit and driver design using these components. The MKI board looks like being 38mmx22mm (1.5"x1") and about 1cm deep. It has connections for the bridge pickup in and out on one end, on the other 8 connections. 2x for output to the driver (via the harmonic switch), 2x for power +/-, 2x for LED +/- (optional) and, 2x for the drive control (1k pot). The drive control is also optional and have devised a cleaver scheme that incorporates a trim pot, placing a jumper to connect the offboard leads together, make the trim pot the drive control, installing a drive pot makes the trim a max drive control. The connectors are like IC sockets (gold plated)...you can connect wires temporarily to them (say for testing) by poking them in, but soldering would be a better option...otherwise, a second set of connectors fits into this securely, and you could solder to them and simply plug the circuit in at the end. I have included reverse polarity protection, just in case someone wires it up back to front! I could have added more controls to tailor response (there is only the one trim pot on this) but I wanted to keep it simple, small and cheap...more controls more cost and confusion, and more parts to break. It could be that some of the components need to be adapted to different guitars, I hope not...I am using a HB in the bridge (JB), I will try others when I get a chance but this will be in part the job of beta testers... I'll get back too it, not feeling too well lately... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2007 OK...so, a lot of frustrating head scratching, the 5th prototype circuit, which was supposed to be the last one with the improvements hanging off it, didn't even make a sound. I checked the layout, all the solder joints, eventually replaced the IC and another potentially fragile component...then I found that an "improvement" was effectively shorting the output...grrrr. This did lead to a solution that seems to be working well, the addition of yet another component. The template for the track cutting remains good and the circuit size and features are as described above. This is a very small circuit, but I a little at a loss to bring the cost down. I could loose the SMD and Tantalum caps but this greatly increases the size and necessitates layout changes that I am loathe to make at this stage. These caps are more reliable and perform better, but at almost a dollar a pop, they are not cheap! Tiny circuit, but a bugger to make. It is amazing to think how small this would be if entirely done in SMD, about the size of a thumb nail!!!! So...unless I can think of anything else I should do to this circuit, this looks like the basis for the MKI version of this device... As I am testing it, I am constantly reminded of my discussions with col and the whole fizz/distortion debate. This will continue but it will be interesting how people feel about this incarnation of the device. At low drive you will get pretty much clean continuous sustain, very low, and it is a moderate elongation of the decay, and in harmonic mode, each note fades into it's harmonic before dying, and interesting if subtle effect. On high settings, you are getting distortion and feedback, on all drive settings with this new circuit I seem to avoid squeal, a tribute perhaps more to the solid driver design. I don't really find this that unattractive a distortion sound, and if you play with distortion, or use an amp that will break up naturally with higher outputs, it can be very effective...so effectively, you are getting an onboard distortion device with infinite sustain and harmonics. I love the idea of clean sustain, and it is there, but I suspect until we can offer a much more powerful amp with a lot of clean headroom and a driver design that can take it without spraying EMI everywhere, high level drive without some distortion is going to be a problem. Even the Ebow is not "clean" you know when feeding the pickups with it's own signal...they describe this distortion as a feature! Obviously, I will be getting some sound samples up when it is fully installed and I get these light strings off the guitar... Oh, and on high settings I did get a response from the high 09's, but the thin D string struggles a little too with this light set...heavier strings are highly recommended as usual... pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth_David Posted August 21, 2007 Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 Hi Pete, congratulations, you seem to be making excellent progress . The idea of having to radically different settings sounds to me like a definite bonus, being able to go from clean sustain to sustain with distortion and feedback controlled by a pot. That would make the response something like a stomp box, which is something familiar to guitarists. Another potentially difficult issue for us guitarists is that of successfully connecting the wires from the driver coil to the circuit. I remember at one point we were also discussing the possibility of having a very small click connector on the driver itself so that it would be very simple to connect the driver to the main circuit via a multi-core flat computor type cable - presumably it would only need 2 or three wires, so this could be very thin. But as a potential punter, I feel that the kit should be as 'ready to go' as possible, needing very little technical expertise in order to fit it. I am not saying that guitarists are all techno-phobic, but I suspect at the same time that most of us will lack the necessary skills to fit the current commercially available kits without external help and a fair amount of technical support. Bear in mind also the difficulties presented by schematic diagrams - not everyone knows how to read them - and I would count myself among such people. On the other hand, if I can see good clear and accurate diagrams of components and how they are wired together, this is something I am able to work with. Photographs or even a short video would also be extremely useful aids, suc as those available here:http://www.vettaville.com/videos.htm I probably missed it, but I don't remember reading anything about the switching for the device. For me this has always been the bugbear, and is the most complicated part of wiring up the system. My advice to you would be to offer a prewired solderless harness, like Kilman, so that complete novices to electronics could fit the circuit in their guitar with only very simple computer type connectors. This might also make a modular approach more practical - meaning that as you come up with add-ons or whatever in the future, these could be readily incorporated later just by substituting the new circuit and clipping the connectors together. I definitely feel that it would be important that you look into designing an external power supply as we were discussing a few posts back, as this would truly set this design apart from the rest in terms of usability as well as providing clean current for those of us who suffer from bad supplies with a lot of spikes as is the case here in Spain. Nuff said for now, let me know what you think..... David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crep Posted August 21, 2007 Report Share Posted August 21, 2007 Sure, something like fast emg pickup connector. good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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