psw

LK So for each selector position the selector would lift the ground...or, would the signal out of the guitar be somehow routed to a kind of mixer with each channel trimmed to that pickup or combination. I don't know that the selector switch itself could provide the necessary switching, could it? I wouldn't really want to compress the guitars output to maintain even volume...complicated, power consuming and would kill the guitars dynamics. I had some idea that you could wire an opamp to reduce volume and somehow have the bridge pickups signal be used as a reference point...an automatic gain control, if you like, based on the strength of this incoming reference signal. It's not something I've seen but seems logically do-able. Yes, the inducto-super-matic-drive-o-tronic mode is the effect of ansil's sustainer...at least from the time's I've made it. The difference here is that there is also an electromagnetic force working on both the strings and the pickup so that it can produce infinte sustain...something I don't think Ansil's sutain er-mod can achieve, and no-one seems to have shown otherwise (err...sorry ansil, that's a challenge if I'm wrong!) For the record, Ansil's sustainer mod, even in only producing this effect is really interesting in sound...a powerfull and unique type of compression really...which, like a compressor keeps the volume up till the dying moments of the strings vibration. Now, I've tried to mock up a block diagram of the signal paths but I have had problems because my (logic brain seems to be frozen lately...ctrl-alt-del time). So: bridge pup >>> buffer >>> preamp >>> filtering >>> poweramp >>> driver bridge / mid / neck pup >>> selector >>> vol / tone >>> output Simple enough...however mid /neck and any combinations with the bridge require their own attenuation. That means that the selector must somehow switch in a mixer (even if simple trimpots), a channel for each selection. You can probably see why I initially bypassed the selector and ran a line from the bridge and neck to an either all selector producing two modes...to keep it simple. Ideally, though would be to keep the selector. In fact, the ideal would be to not interfere with the electronics at all and just take a feed from the output. That would mean that the incoming driver signal would change with pickup selection but create havoc with the driver/pickup interplay as the driver input and driver would be so close in the neck position that I can't see how the oscillation feedback (squeel) could be controled. Ah, would it work if the attenuation came before the selector (he say's, writing out loud) and the mixer circuit be switched in (or on) somehow with the driver device? That way the guitar's signal chain would look like this: bridge / mid / neck pup >>> mixer (attenuator) // bypass >>> selector >>> vol / tone >>> output What would be required to insert this type of circuit in terms of switching. I have to keep the size and expense of switching down as hardware expense could cripple it as a project. Which brings me round to Mr Vai...Fender had a push button strat...major failure. Push buttons have always been poorly recieved in the guitar world. That particular switch is quite large and is spst (ie very basic) mains power switch (250v). I did find a really neat, small illuminated computer power push button switch which has 4 poles but even that's probably a little large compared to these toggles and, as I say, push buttons have always been cursed on guitars. So, unless someone can come up with some solution that fits LK's practical criteria: I know that I have failed in at least one of my aims to have access to all pickups but the main achievement really is in allowing no changes to your choice of pickup and the alteration of the guitar. I'd still like some feedback on my control box idea. A really practical one is available for strat owners. The recessed jack plate has below it enough room for a 9v battery. If I were to extend it a little and it was about 10mm thick, the jack could be relocated a little and the internal wires could emerge through the out-jack cavity to the surface mounted circuit/control/jack panel. I would locate the sustain knob behind and a little below the volume knob and a row of 2 or 3 toggles in a line below that. For stud tailpiece guitars like a Les Paul, you could replace the tailpiece with a circuit box, perhaps even include the battery, with the controls behind the bridge in a kind of tailpiece arrangement. Unfortunately, there's not too much room at all in your Ibanez and other types. I'd like people here to be aware that the fernandes system works on TWO 9v batteries and must require routing to install. The sustainiac system only requires one but they install it and I bet they may require some chopping to get the stuff in on some guitars! The control box idea makes for somthing reasonably thin (about the height of the other controls on the guitar) and, even if you dont have a strats recessed jack, you could take the line out from under the pickguard or bridge I guess and find some room for the battery elsewhere. I take the point that roland's surface mount synth controller is a bit dicky but I'd be hoping for something smaller and better than that! Also, If you had a mind to, perhaps it could be devised so as to allow the removal of the casing to allow for an internal mounting if your prepared to make room in your instrument for it and the battery. Anyway, I'm open to other ideas. It just seems that by making an integral unit it is more likely to work as intended than to allow people the possibility of upsetting the apparently critical circuit balance! I could also make it a little more modular with the circuitry internal and simply a control interface surface mounted. This would be smaller but require a lot of wires to go to the controls and back (at least 10 I'd say) but allow for these controls to be more easily relocated internally as well if one wants. Where would you put all these controls anyway, I know on a strat you could sacrifice the tone control but remember LK's criteria! Anyway, that's enough to take in for now, I know there's a lot of people following the thread and I see there's been renewed interest with LK's return...I know I'm a fan...but I hope everyone feels like they can contribute at this point as we're mostly talking about how this thing would look and feel on your guitar now and I'm at least in part doing a little market research so feel free... enough from me psw

A little hit and run there LK...guess you didn't notice I had woken up when you posted that...never mind, it's already tomorrow here . Now after another look at it, perhaps there is some potential for it in the drive circuit, the overdrive effect may drive the string quite nicely anyway and give the "induction drive" a nice color too! I can imagine people never turning the thing off...I'll have to buy shares in Eveready!...you could just turn the sustain control knob from none to beserk and the pickup selector to achieve your distortion quota. What I had thought is some kind of circuit where the guitar's output is referenced by the signal from the bridge pickup. So when the neck "induction" mode is selector-ed and the other various combinations, the circuitry would automatically reduce the output to the level of that signal. Hopefully then, although you wouldn't get the boost, you would get the color of the "induction" modes. There could be a risk that it would attenuate the drive signal too low to create the infinite sustain giving the farting decay rather than the singing sustain. Oh and here's another question. Some sustainers seem to have three harmonic settings. One called mix (fundumental and harmonic at once). Is this really possible...how can the string vibrate at both frequencies at once without just leaping from one to another. I know you get a fade out from one into the other so there is a little while where both are heard...anyone got any ideas how it's done? psw

Nice one LK! So, I see a couple of clipping diodes there...could they be removed to make a clean output tamer? If the output could be tamed, perhaps pickup selection might fall into place with a tweak here and there! psw Oh...you get though that the boost is occuring in the guitars output, having crossed over via the neck pickup by induction, right? Therefore it would mostly have to attenuate the guitar's output...hence the "surgury" to the guitars electronics besides just taking a line out for the signal.

Ok let's try that again...the 2y.o. turned off the computer in the middle of the post...doh. Now...hmmm....right...ok second question....yeah I guess so, basically so there isn't an unexpected boost. Now let me explain. The signal is taken directly from the bridge pickup, is amplified and sent to the driver right up against the neck pickup. In this mode it is just like current sustainer systems but with a few unique quirks from the hex drive design (oops, I mean features!). Now then, let's consider the selection of the neck pickup. What you get is the signal from the strings as sensed by the neck pup but mostly you get the signal from the driver. This is of course the bridge pickup but heavily amplified and transferred by the driver (which also colors the sound) by induction...just as in a transformer...into the neck pickup and hence the guitar's signal chain. This creates a very, very powerful boost, an interesting distortion and infinite sustain. It may prove to be a very effective power saving feature as the gain needs to be reduced...less gain, less power. It's also a sound that I think many will prefer. Somehow this boosted tone needs to be brought under control. You can't turn the gain down too much or you loose the infinite sustain effect and the decay of the induction drive is not pretty as the compression holds out till the note has no power left and then farts out! Now the combined settings are problematic...significant feedback (high pitched)...which takes a bit to control. The phase of the pickups plays a role also. The mid pickup...when the sound can be controlled has an interesting reedy quality. The thing is the neck pickup does not at all sound as you would expect (smooth and warm) but strident and vibrant with complex harmonics. I imagine some may find a use for the tone control (although I have to turn it down to zero to control the noise...but twisting the leads has helped so maybe I'll be taking that back!). What I'm trying to say is that every setting seems to require certain conditions to be effective...at least at this stage of development. I'm rapidly getting out of my depth but am learning fast with this circuitry stuff. That's another reason for considering digital electronic switching...infinite number of potential poles! So, I guess I thought I'd cut my loses and just get the two main sounds easily available. I can see it being quite neat in a way to switch between one setting of pickups instantly to a sustainer setting and back with the flick of one switch. On the other hand, I had always envisioned the sustainer having a tiny momentary switch, perhaps on the driver end, so that it may be activated with a spare right hand finger for the occasional note or chord. That way it would work seemlessly into a players style and become an extention of the instrument and not just a 'now it's on, now it's off' effect. That is what I really hope for this thing in the long run. Now, if something was to control the guitar's output, using the bridge pickup signal as a reference point I'd be getting closer to this idea. It may even solve the pickup selection question. My idea of using a rotary switch was that I could preset a selection of sounds using filters and the two main drive modes. I hope that helps a bit with my problem which is hindering some of the circuit design as it's getting a little complicated for my flustered mind at the moment. Or perhaps that's why it's getting complicated! Now, I was looking through my box of tricks and found a rotary encoder with a push button switch. It's got a lovely clicky feel to it's infine rotation. It wasn't cheap (about $10) but it is very thin and compact. Perhaps it could be implemented as a super drive/selection/tone control. I'm imagining smooth and warm to bright and loud sounds. But, for my current version, I'll stick to my toggles unless the number of poles get ridiculous and the switches too large. I'll try and mock up my external box idea...do you reckon it's a goer. If you can imagine LK what all this is about and how the circuit could be blocked up, I'd appreciate it...logic is beyond me and it's late. It's also very, very hot down here this week! (37C) psw

Very good points both LK and Bio If effects were to be of use then perhaps later in some kind of add on module. Perhaps I just have a problem finishing anything...always looking for distractions. So, no effects and no to digital switching for now. In fact, I've just come back from the electronics store and have the parts for another driver (that makes two and the current working prototype). Also I got a really small pot (about 10mm cube plus shaft) that's completely sealed (going to try a A10k after the preamp) and some subminiture dpdt toggle switches. I'm proposing an external box (stylish I hope) that will accomodate 3 switches, pot, preamp and battery. This will be mounted behind or just below the bridge. A direct line from the bridge pickup and the guitar's output will need to hook up. Possibly a signal line and power to the driver amp. The driver amp will be an internal tiny device in the neck pickup's cavity hard wired to the driver just above it. This will ensure the least interferance and max efficiency for the power amp. For the external box, with a little effort I hope to make something about the size of two 9v batteries lying side by side, flat. If I shape the enclosure so that the switches and pot are at a 45 degree angle they should fit in ok and the protruding knob and switch toggles wont stick out too much. When you think about it, your standard knob ( ) sticks out more than this. Now, of course all this stuff could be mounted internally if you wish, but as a demonstration, or potential product, it would show how small the device really is and be usable without too much internal wiring. I might be able to use those spare opamps to buffer the guitar's output with one and to reduce the output (adjustable) for the "induction drive" when activated. So: Switch one is simply on/off but it needs to re-route the guitar's output, bypassing the pickup selector, light an LED and turn on the power. Switch two, selects between normal (bridge pickup) or "induction drive" (neck pickup) with associated signal reduction on the output for the later. Switch three, reverses the signal (phase switch) to create the harmonic drive effect. Sustain pot, adjusts the gain between the preamp and poweramp stages. Now, if I could find a small on-off-on switch, I could reduce the switches to just two as I said in my last post, but there may be advantages in the three. Each switch is dpdt...are the above functions possible do you think? What do you guys think of this proposal? I'm going to put together the even slimmer driver and muck around with the amp ideas, thanks for your input...I hear you psw just two late additions...is there anyway do you think of automatically limiting the induction drive to the level of the bridge pickup...or an adjustable level above...say with a compator or opamp. The tone of the drive is quite different. and, in this the pickup selector is inactive (just as in present systems I assume) although you get to keep all your pickups as is and get two distict drive modes plus harmonics and variable sensitivity. No one has a problem with that?

welcome x189 player yeah I like your idea but your still looking at replacing all the pots in the guitar. I know no one seems to like push buttons or rotary controls or sliding pots. I found some switched pots but I think I'd prefer a switch so that the gain is preset, you don't want to be messing around with the gain when you launch into that super sustain solo. Perhaps an on-off-on mini toggle could select between normal and "induction drive" and off and another for harmonic selection plus the gain knob. As you say, replacing the tone on a Strat or even Les Paul or adding a knob to others. hat way we're down to two switches and a knob just like the current sustainers but with the addition of the induction drive feature. As for your other question. When I look at all the time and money that's gone into this thing I better get something out of it. Once the grind of perfecting the system and trying all the alternatives, the solution I'm sure will seem so easy. That's when you get ripped off. I've disclosed too much already I'm sure and there are probably others trying to work out the secrets of the driver. As soon as I let one get out of my hands, someones going to crack it open and go running straight down to the patent office. Now patents are expensive. Perhaps someone would buy the idea from me, or maybe I'll just go crazy and sell as many as I can before it gets into the wrong hands. There is still a bit of work to be done. At the moment it's this control issue. I tend to make things too complicated so I need your help here to keep it to basics. The driver is working and my next one will be perhaps a little more universal as it will be thinner and shorter but a bit deeper. I'm anticipatind attaching it to the neck pickup's side so that it will serve as height adjustment. That means probably increasing the pickup slot and cavity width by about 3mm and cutting a section out of the pickup ring on HB guitars. I haven't really thought about height adjustment for the driver before but I'd appreciate some ideas. The closeness to the strings is rather vital. anyway, late for work....got to go psw

Hmmm....have we forgotten my hairbrained "natural synthesiser idea? Firstly...no you can't hide it anywhere...perhaps you could paint it the color of your pickguard but why bother, eventually I'll get it down to something tasteful, I promise! Actually I thought the crome one was quite good, would you prefer black, by chance? Seriously, the thing has to be about 1mm from the string when fretted at the highest string and a low action so the string is reasonably close to it when fretted anywhere along the string. By reasonably I mean very close, OK! Now...The effects don't compete with others...the idea is not to process the guitar signal like some lame brained sears guitar of yore...no, no, no! The idea is to "effect" the driving signal, thus effecting the way in which the string vibrates. The effect would go between the preamp and the poweramp of the driver circuitry...not the guitar's signal. A tremolo I expect would bring in and out the drive and in harmonic mode cycle the harmonic while the momentum of the string would carry the fundumental through the inbetween cycles. The clipper idea would probably produce a grainier sound, perhaps a bit reedy. Some kind of attack modifier (slow gear) would bring the drive signal in only as a notes natural decay begins so that the the note would die away then come back, perhaps as a harmonic, like a kind of repeat effect. I tried a flanger and it swept up and down sounding the strings harmonics as it touched upon them...very weird. The sound quality of the effects aren't really that important to the concept as it is the effect they have on the strings vibration that is really being heard. The exception to this is in the "induction drive" mode (which is the boost effect) where the neck pickup sounds the driver's interpretation of the bridge pickup as sensed by the neck! This is a unique feature of my driver that hasn't been put forward as a possibility before...and it's really good. I didn't expect that it would work at all but I think that the size and magnetic structure allows for it in my design. But yes, perhaps a bit much.....so I'll take that on board! Now here's a great little article on electronic switching for effects or anything...pretty much what I was getting at: Tone God's Wicked Switches Article But you know...perhaps two knobs and a switch are the go. One for gain/or sensitivity...the other a rotary selector. A switch for the on off. I'm still kind of attracted to a surface mount control and the idea of a stylish box behind the bridge with battery and everything pretty much in it...I need more ideas on how to implement this thing. Now "hardwire the bridge pickup to the preamp" is exactly what I've done. I don't quite follow the rest, but there are two main modes of operation....bridge pickup, driven from the neck...a clean precise drive sound. The other mode is the neck pickup on which is that above mentioned "induction drive"...aggressive with an enormous boost (like 300%) available (silly really) which needs to be calmed down as the two are ridiculously different in volume. Ok, so I need on/off, harmonic mode, and drive mode switches (dpdt's) and a gain control. personally I like toggle switches but I'm just not sure how people think about drilling and incorporating that much switchware on their guitar, plus finding room for the 9v battery. This configuration will require the total bypass of pickup selection. On a strat you loose the mid pickup options too that also yield interesting sounds. So, thanks for your kind words of encouragement, and perhaps I should stick to the core idea. Having got this close, I really want to install it into the guitar but the player/device interface will likely be crucial to it's success. So help me out by putting your minds to what you would want sticking on or out of your guitar and how much your prepared to drill and/or cut into your guitar. peace, brothers in sustain (still no thoughts on a name by the way?) psw

Well yes something like that...perhaps not quite as gaudy. I could expose the magnet array, their nickel plated and light up around them...you can get tiny SMD LED's and wire up a strip also. But then, perhaps I don't want people to be able to see anything of the driver's guts for a while. I thought perhaps some thick fishing line, sanded a little with a hidden LED on each end across the line. I could use bi color LED's so that it would change color with the mode. Anyhow...that can wait a while! Great News LK....twisting the wires really, really helped. Still works best with the guitars tone down but we are talking the cheapest quality single coil ceramics here and considering this, the performance is great. Now switching is going to be another issue. Digital is probably be the way to go simply for the number of simutaneous switching that may be required and some kind of gain control. That means I could (I assume) use surface mount momentary push button switches on a thin (say 4mm) control panel mounted wherever you want. Unless somone has some better ideas and know where to get them. I take it that trim pots couldn't take the constant use? Small slider pot may make more sense as it's a little thinner but most people like a knob to wrap their finger around so I'm looking for suggestions. Inside, I'd suggest a preamp/control circuit. A power amp circuit nearer to the driver, the driver and this control panel. I'm thinking a direct line from the bridge pickup but I'm not sure if I should somehow use the pickup selector or bypass it and have a mode selector from the control panel and disable it when the sustainer is in use. The gain has to be greately diminished when using the neck pickup so, by bypassing the selector, this could be tailored to taste with a trim pot. By the way guys, I've worked out a way to make the pickup ring version...it requires a different magnet array and is so deeper (perhaps 6mm) but is only about 3mm thick. It probably means a little carving out of the top of a les paul (or any other guitar) under the pickup ring (so it wont be seen) but where only talking a couple of mm so I guess thats the price you pay. I've tested it and in principle it works. Still don't know how humbuckers will react but I don't forsee a problem...could even be better. So, I'm making a new driver (halfway through it), and working on the circuit. But fitting to the guitar will probably have to wait till I have a better ideal of how to set up the controls. If anyone has knowledge of, or can point me in the direction of digital switching (IC's 4016 or 4066 typically) this could help. Looking at an on/off switch, a fundamental harmonic switch and probably a 2-3 position selector switch. If I go on to add some simple effects say volume swell, tremolo, distortion then I'd need at least another. Any simple ways of implementing these types of effects would be appreciated. I was thinking of switching in some back to back diodes for clipping and I've got 2 spare LM071 opamps for other stuff not used for the sustainer. Anyway, looking better all the time. If I can decide on a suitable final design for the driver I'll set up the jigs to replicate it easily. Once the circuitry is finalized perhaps I'll be able to roll some out for testing by others...at least I'll get an idea of cost. I have the feeling it will be very competative with current systems and perhaps not much more than a replacement pickup. see ya psw

Is that the...errr..Zobel network? I don't think I've got a resistor that large in it, I'll perhaps try some different values, maybe a trim pot Here's another question out of left field. If you shine an LED through a fishing line or clear sheet...will it glow...perhaps a little sanding to deflect the light along it's length...if you get what I mean?

OK...well I guess I should have mentioned that the effect is not as bad with the battery versus the regulated power supply which I guess allows it to draw as much current as it likes. The frequency changes under different conditions, even moving the wire around, so I don't think filtering it out is the solution. So, shielding it could help? OK, thats easy enough...I had this idea that the noise would transfer into the ground and on into the guitars electronics. Should the circuitry not be connected to the guitar's main ground somehow? It picks it up from the bridge pickups signal into the device. Changing the phase of the pickups (which reverses the signal) changes the harmonic just like the harmonic switch (which reverses the driver wires) with different noise. It particularly doesn't like both neck and bridge pickups on. But this is a complcated situation with the induction boost, the original and the transferring pickups. I get the feeling that distortion in the driving signal is also detrimental to efficient drive. The pre-amp has a 40db boost and the signal is attenuated through (I think) a 10k (or is it 1k) pot. Would I get more control with a larger pot after the preamp? I should still probably round off the highs in the preamp. I'm thinking of putting together a preamp from a 074 quad op-amp chip. Probably a unity gain buffer for isolation, trimming volume, a say x10 preamp stage with some kind of high frequency timing and midrange boost, then on to the poweramp stage. I'd then have two spare op-amps for signal modification or some other preamp functions (say piezo amp, booster) separate from the driver. Or they could be used to adjust for the different pickup volumes. Electronics are not my strong point. How about those push buttons / digital switching ideas? You got any ideas for an alternative control than a pot...something thin that could surface mount to the outside of the guitar. Also, probably will split the pre-amp and driver amp sections to limit the driver cable length. Idealy the power amp would be built in to the driver, which I had thought of before but I don't have space for even SMD electrolytic capacitors. Are there alternatives to those larger output caps in the power amp. What would happen without them and just coupling caps or chip capacitors? If it's just that it would loose bass and I cut all the highs off we might get something of the midrange signal I'm after. The lower strings, being thicker and having more mass, and moving at a slower speed, are far easier to drive. The A string is always the first to drive. Powerful signals like these swamp the others in chord work in general, or so it seems. Anyway, back to real life psw oh, and LK...I think there is already bypass in the poweramp section, and possibly the preamp also...how big a cap were you thinking? As for the LED's, I don't think that's going to be a problem. I built half of the 5 light model, it looks pretty cool. I could do something similar with the slimline version...I'm making another slightly shorter version with an LED on either end. I might take the wires from the centre but with shielded cable there is going to have to be a little drillin' to be done. and, thomasteven...I think your thinking of mains AC causing noise. It gives of a 50hz signal. I think what I'm getting is similar but the amplification and compound regeneration of very high frequencies, probably normal background noise and weird resonant frequenciese in the drivers and pickups, thanks for the prompt replys, guys

thomasteven...yeah, had the same concern, of course you could turn them off. With digital switching you could even have them light up to show you which mode your in...outside 2 for fundumental 3 for harmonic and five for beserk boost mode. Or, you could wire them to the signal which carrys a lot of current so that they light when you play. As I say, when off they just look black. They would also help in installation too. The alignment of the drivers with the stings is important. I build the a cm apart, having lights 1cm apart, between the strings may help DIY's get this right...of course a ruler would work just as well! Basically digital switching is attractive because I figure you could use momentary surface mount spst switches to activate as many poles as would be required. Now, finding some kind of pot or something that could be mounted with them might be a little tricky....any ideas? Anyway...after wasting a whole day and about $20 worth of hard to get components on my last idea....I'm back to the silver driver. Still learn't some valuable information from the experiment. LK, glad to see your back to contributing publically on this . I think I've found out where the high frequency noise is comming from....the driver cables....doh! So, any thoughts on how to address this problem. You'll see from the photo that I'm using quite thick (2mm perhaps) cables as I thought they'd impede the current less. They are however reasonably long. Basically thin speaker cables. They are also separate, coming out at either end. Now, if I get the wires well away from the guitar's electronics the thing seems to work perfectly. I mentioned that the tone control helped control the high frequency oscillation. It turns out that it isn't affecting the signal into the driver's circuitry so much (I've spent quite a bit of effort filtering highs out of the circuitry) but attenuating the highs in the guitars output to cope with this interferance. It also explains why sometimes the thing works and then when I come back with the same settings, the wires have moved and the thing goes beserk! This makes a mockery of a lot of my results so that success with the bridge driver say is hard to replicate. The fact that it has worked indicates that it's possible but something as simple as this dramatically effects progress in this direction. So how do I solve the problem. Shorter leads I guess. ferrite beads on the line? Power amp circuit as close as possible to the driver? Non metalic cover for the driver array? Better internal shielding? Some kind of noise cancelling inverted signal perhaps? Solving this could make all the difference and I could move straight on to the issue of control....or at least build this thing into this guitar. One good thing is that I think I have established that the silver driver works perfectly well to produce a result that surpasses the current sustainer technology. This is pleasing because this design is easier and cheaper to make than some others with less chance of me superglueing my fingures together again! thanks psw

I'm not sure yet how many controls...I'd love some suggestions My test circuit has an on/off switch and a phase reversal (dpdt) switch, plus a sensitivity control and an LED. I need to find room for the circuit, the above controls and a 9volt battery. My test guitar is practically hollow under the scratch plate so not really a problem but I don't think people will want to cut too many holes in the guitar and the battery will need changing/charging quite often. There will also be some tweaking trim pots to "tune" the system to the guitar. Pickup power and placement of driver and it's relation to other pickups are the main issues that will need to be adjusted for any given guitar. Now for controls, as discussed above, I could have like a three way switch replacing the sensitivity knob with sounds set with trimpots from the circuit, but I'm going off this idea. In line with my "synth" idea the driving signal could be effected to produce a different texture to the sound. Distortion (perhaps some diodes in the feedback circuit) is an obvious one. Tremolo would sound effective too as the intensity of the drive could fluctuate like orchestral strings perhaps. Auto wah would be another interesting one too as it could sweep through harmonics but it does this anyway so I might forget about this. So perhaps another switch to switch the distortion/tremolo in and out and trimpots somewhere for speed, etc. These ideas will be explored at another time. Basically intensity on/off and harmonic switch are the minimum. The main problem with an externally mounted control is the depth of the pots and switches and where best to place them. Perhaps there's someone out there who knows about digital switching (4066 chip perhaps) to miniturize this stuff with tiny surface mount push button switches. Anyway, slow progress, but progress all the same. I have an idea that if the driver is significantly refined, and each one is getting better, the performance will take care of itself and the circuit will be relatively straight forward. Bye for now psw Anyone else have an opinion on LED lit driver...not too much?

Well, good suggestions. I thought that, since the only difference the bobbin color would make is if you were going to take the covers off, I'd take the covers off! You could also replace the shielded wire with 4 core to allow coil switching, series parrallel or phasing...if you have the nerve...while you got it off!

Fair enough Mr Vai Now, every now and then, I look in my failure box (there's about fifty different prototypes in there!) and try out some old design or idea. Sometimes new developments in circuitry or understanding make a difference and I get a new direction to explore. Anyhow, dug up something that I gave up on a while back. Fiddled about with it a little and the idea was good after all...seems to be more powerful, efficient, requires less current and produces less interferance with the other pickups. It uses a new magnetic structure, a development of the last driver's ideas. It does cost twice as much to produce and a little more work but compared to the cost of switches it's not that significant to eventual overall production costs. Now it seems to work ok in just about any position (near the bridge is fine) but it will need to be a little wider (this width increase may be part of it's success anyway). The dimensions are 1cm between each driver so just over 6cm long, still about 4-5mm thick and about 9mm wide. This width is the significant difference. The last one was 5mm wide. Also, cause I cant help myself, I thought of a cool way of indicating when the thing is on...5 LED's, one between each string so the whole thing glows. If you sand the tops off and paint them black, the light will still show through but when off will appear black. I'm still fond of the chrome cover so perhaps a black stripe down the middle that lights when in operation. I'm sure people will think these types of things (packaging, etc) aren't important but there needs to be something to set the thing aside from other devices in the marketplace, especially with something so small. I guess I want people to say, what the hell has that guy using there. Still, it's a matter of taste...I could put LED's on the ends of the device so one would be pointing up at the player or have none and have the indicator near the controls. The inclusion of these lights wont effect the dimensions of the device as the space is there to allow the magnetic field to "circulate" correctly. Anyway, looking out for switch options. Got some sub-miniture toggles for the prototype when I get to making up the controls. One idea is to make a new type of jack socket that includes the circuitry, controls and allows space for the battery in the jack socket hole. I could extend it up so that the sensitivity pot is at about the same level as the volume and just under the bridge. Another easy thing would be to make a "tailpiece" that goes behind the bridge and holds the circuitry, battery and controls. With this type of implementation it would be possible to use a slider pot for the sensitivity and I had a thought to mount the switches on their side or slightly angled up. Slide switches (which can be quite small and cheap could also be used. Anyway...feel free to comment critisize or suggest some alternatives psw

Well the cables would either go into the guitar through a hole under the driver, probably 2.5mm hole on either end of the driver with this prototype, or through the pickup cavity so the wires wont show at all. The bridge mounted guitar (or at least near the bridge) has another benifit...the necessity for a super low action is not so critical and, having the driver close to the strings (1mm) is far less obtrusive. Overall it is much neater but difficult to implement. Nevertheless, I'll give it a bit of a go, started a modified driver design for the purpose this morning. Each time I try this I also alter the driver component values to test for optimum efficiency. It is getting a bit expensive, and as each driver has been different, it's hardly a scientific test. I'm of the impression that the device could probably retail for about half the cost of current systems, or about the cost of a replacement pickup. Development though is expensive and I'm always destroying some components (as I did this morning) which means pulling it apart to extract and replace the part. This does not mean that it would be difficult to manufacture (if anyone's interested) as once the design is settled proper jigs and systems could speed up the process and ensure everything goes together ok. The circuitry would no doubt be sent out for manufactur and probably uses surface mount components. Has anyone seen suitable switches (dpdt). Perhaps something small enough to be incorporated in a surface mounted control "pad", thin pots for same or ideas for perhaps digital switching or control...let me know. The best I've found lately are subminiture slide switches but they aren't really player friendly IMHO. psw

Hmmm...no comment? Anyway, I've been trying out some ideas for placing the driver just ahead of the bridge. This is problematic...the harmonics are complex here and the string harder to move. On the other hand, it's probably a preferable position as it's out of the way, close to the control cavity, there's a bit more height so I can design in more efficiency (perhaps), magnetic strength has less effect on the tighter strings so stronger magnets could be used. I can report that I have been able to succeed in driving the string from this position. Whether it's truely practical, as more power of some kind will probably be required and the physical difficulties need to be addressed, remains to be seen. I'll continue to explore this avenue a little. Let me know how much I shoud pursue it though as I don't wan't to waste more time on it if people really aren't fussed. psw

Thanks...encouragement and opinions at this stage are the biggest help! Update: I've been playing around with the circuitry a bit and I'm kinda getting it under control. There's a lot of unexpected noise that need to be filtered out and the different pickup settings have amazingly different sounds and effects but not what you may expect. The neck pickup setting has an amazing amount of boost and distortion of a really interesting type. It really needs to be toned down to be useful however. It's not a smooth mellow sound, as you might expect, but a strident trebely singing sound. This is because the neck pickup is mostly picking up the signal from the bridge pickup as transfered, like a transformer, into the coil of the neck pickup. So what you here is the sound of the bridge pickup, the amplification (which is immense!), the driver, the neck pickup and what it senses of the string itself. As for controls and set up. A direct line from the bridge and neck pickup needs to be taken to the control circuitry. A return signal back to the guitars circuitry where the pickups were previously connected. A line out needs to go to the drivers and power in from the battery. There will need to be a few trim pots. I had an idea of building it into the tremolo spring cavity cover and squeezing the battery in there some how. As for controls then, you're looking at an on/off switch, a harmonic select switch, and possibly a pickup mode switch. This last switch would be needed as an alternative to the normal pickup selector. Current sustainers have a sensitivity knob which controls the gain. I was wondering if the settings couldn't be preset by trim pots on the back of the guitar, adjustable with a screwdriver through the trem spring cover and intensity be refined with the guitars volume and tone on the fly. This would do away with the intensity knob and the effect could be preset by the two switch positions then activated with the on/off switch leaving pickup selector in active. Turning off the device would return you to your previous setting or wherever you've changed the selector during operation. So for controls your perhaps looking at a trio of switches. An alternative would be two switches and some circuitry to adjust for each selection position. One problem with this is that the boost function would be in the bridge selection position and there may be a few switches to adjust to get to the sound your looking for. I'd like some opinions also on LED indicators...I think an on indicator is essential. It could be fitted into the driver as I've done befor (in fact the whole driver may be able to light up) but other settings could be indicated too. Some other control options could be some kind of single rotary switch (tricky) or electronicc switching operated by surface mount momentary switches built into the ends of the driver or on a separate external contol panel say, down by the bridge. This type of control option will probably need several LED's or multi colored LED's to tell you where you are. Any thoughts or other suggestions? I have to say that "it" is really sensitive to technique. String damping is important of course, just like playing super loud, but the strength of picking and things like vibrato have a big effect on harmonic change and sensitivity. It will take a bit of getting used to but I dare say it opens up new doors to the instrument that have not been there before. For instance, I was playing a bit of a blues riff with the "thing" on low and the only difference was that if I lingerd on a note for a little longer (say 2-4 beats) the note would slowly evolve into the octave above as it decayed. When this happened could be effected by vibrato and this could technique could be used to coax the note back up in volume. What I'm getting at is that the device does'nt have to remove the decay of every note which, along with attack gives a note it's shape. What it will do is give access to other decay shapes and effects. It will also radically alter attack to the extent that you can make notes appear from nowhere just by placing your finger of the fret and giving the string a bit of a wiggle! Of course you can get a synth type sound where there's no decay till the note's stopped, but I play guitar because I love the detail in the sound and relish the subtle differences that each guitar (and each guitarist) has in sound, and I'd be wasting my time building something that would remove any of that. By the way, the test guitar in the photo uses a similar presetting idea where the three mini switches set up the phase relationships and the gibson style selector switches between the preset three sounds. So typically, when playing a song, you already have the sounds set up for the main toggle. The mid position being the novelty one if you like. On this guitar, the middle pickup is treated as a tone, fading in that phased knophler/quack to taste or, with the phased reversed, a more powerful midrange presence. I've found that the mid pickup is and, especially, the phase relationships are critical to the sustainer's successful operation. (Mostly I have the mid pup off to make things easier). Every change to the signal into the device needs a completely different set up for the circuit, and with the neck pickup, because of the boost effect, the output of this pickup back into the guitar will need to be attenuated too. That's a lot of variables. Effectively it will need to be tuned (by these proposed trim pots) to each individual guitar. Anyway, finding room for three mini switches is probably easier than a pot and two anyway. Tell me what you think. On the driver side, there maybe a refinement or two to make the driver array more efficient. I've experimented with a few things and have developed quite a bit of knowledge from the many, many, many hours of work I've done on this (it better be worth it!). It will need to be a little thicker (say 4-5mm) to implement them though. I have an idea for making it slimmer (say about 3mm) but it would need to be about 5-6mm thick. With a strat you can chock up the neck or route into the pickguard (thats 3mm right there) rather than stick it on top. (That's a bit much for your average DIY installer I imagine). On most set neck guitars it's probably not enough space without letting it into the top. I like the pickup ring idea but as I recall there isn't much more (if that) than 3mm from the fingerboard height to the top at the end of the neck. Perhaps you guys could check out your guitars for me. It may work fine on the bridge side of the neck pickup though, I'm not sure. That also brings up the question of humbuckers. I've been testing the "thing" on single coils (although the bridge pickup is now a stacked humbucker). I really don't know how the device will interact with their dual magnetic fields. I can say that my present device doesn't like to be moved to the otherside of the pickup or to be turned around. The reason seems to lie in the particular polaritiy of the driver and pickup. The humbucker's complementing fields and coils may actually improve the situation but then maybe not...that will be a whole nother enquiry. Certainly there is enough room in the Les Pauls control cavity for the circuitry, but that's a pretty thick guitar....I'm not so sure how much room you'll have in other instruments. I'd rather not have people digging into there instruments if I can help it, people seem to have difficulty enough with wiring changes! Anyway, keep the interest alive and I welcome any suggestions anyone has! Hope I haven't put anyone to sleep with my typically long post...I suspect that secretly people enjoy reading a saga every now and then psw

Sorry, you've got to take the cover off. Its soldered on the underside. You will need some solder wick. Melt the solder and this braided wick should soak it up. Once thats done it should come off easily. If you try to take it off without a solder sucker or wick you'll find the solder just runs further down making it harder to get off. My Les paul was basic black and I think that's more common psw

Thanks Bio...I don't know sustainiac always sounded a little cheesy too! Took apart the birds nest of circuits that reside in that black box so things are a bit clearer and I can start doing some experiments to get the thing working a little better. Also took the neck off and placed a couple of icypole sticks under there to raise the whole neck about 2mm. Action now is pretty low and that's how it's got to be so that the distantce from driver to string is consistantly close...how close?...real close, say 1-2mm from the driver. This driver though is independent from the pickups so you can adjust them as you like but the bridge pickup should also be pretty close. As for pickup selection, well some unexpected effects have arisen. The bridge of course. When I opened up the guitar last time I replaced the bridge pickup with a stacked humbucker...real cheap one (A$30 new)...but I thought it might give the device a bit of help by cutting out on noise. Some of the middle pickup can be used and I can do that on this guitar as the middle knob fades in the mid pickup in any combination or phase. The neck pickup is the surprise. what you get is a huge increase in volume as the driver and the pickup act as a wierd transformer. The neck pickup picks up the vibration of the string and the vibration of the magnetic field of the driver. The driver, being connected to the bridge pickup what you get is a heavily amplified neck, bridge and driver sound...and infinite sustain. The volume is so loud that it will only work with careful manipulation of the amplifier gain and frequency impedance. The result is that only a little gain is required to get the effect. Little gain means little power requirement as the fields are kind of feeding off of themselves kinda. So, at least at this stage, you may not get pickup selection in sustain mode but two distinctly different sustain effects plus harmonic drive in each mode. Remember though that you get a system thats small, requires minimum alteration to the instrument to install and you get to keep your own choice of pickups as a result. The action will have to be low, and generally people do have fairly low actions these days (unless your into SRV style), I'm just a little old school with this guitar. My Les Paul has a perfect action for this and I suspect the other systems will require this too. As for the circuitry, if I leave the driver as is for now (there are refinements that could be made but they can wait), I need better control of gain and high frequency filtering, mainly for oscilation control and to get an even response across the strings. This thing loves the A string and it will vibrate this merrily before all others and dominate if you let it, string damping technique is a must. I'm also having trouble getting the thing to vibrate for long in fundumental mode. The note very soon jumps up an octave and in harmonic mode two octaves. This may be a product of the unique driver design or lack of circuit control. Anyway, got to run hope everyone has got a handle on the current concept from those photos anyway... psw

Just to follow on from the last two pics. Here are two of the prototype in it's working position. Obviously the yellow tape is not how it would be fitted. Double sided tape under the driver and the wires on either end throught two holes or brought down through the pickup cavity should hold it nicely. You can see also the 9v battery taped to the side of the black box. The "thing" now works from this quite happily so far. Which reminds me, I need to come up with a name as "sustainer" is already taken...any ideas? Anyway, tested it out last night, after a little fiddling about the thing really screams! psw

Ok, I'm so proud of this thing I'll post the pictures now. Dimensions and details a few posts up! Tell me what you think... psw

Gee Thanks G_urr_a Lucky I can type a little...anyway, I'm keen to see this story come to the end of at least this part of it's development and it's really getting there. I'll post a photo of the newest version soon, but while I've been away I've read up on electronics and I think I've got a handle on how to proceed. Still not sure how or where to install the controls on the guitar, but well see what works. Anyhow, just a short post to let you all know that I'm back, slightly sunburnt and still salty and sore from the surf . Some good waves down here lately, maybe a Tsunami effect, who knows, seemed to be a very high tide too! See ya later pete

tHANKS mAN I've promised to forget about all this stuff and just spend time with the family. So, I sneaked a little time here and there and have built a new driver. This one has it's own magnetic field and a new construction method that makes things a little easier to construct. All seems to be well with it with a little testing that I've done. It has some unusual properties that set it aside from current sustainer systems, mainly because it is a hex driver. Anyway, I've got say I'm really proud of this one, its as small as it can possibly be...6mm wide 75mm long and 4mm deep. Its about as big as the last one but includes a whole hex magnet array. But of most importance for some is that this one is aluminium, polished so as to look exactly like bright chrome. It works particularly well on the neck side of the neck pickup, right up against it (not on top). It will work in various other places but not by the bridge for reasons discussed previously. You can choose pickups, but the sounds are not what you would expect as the driver has a radical influence on what comes out of anything but the bridge pickup alone. This is not really disappointing, as these sounds are really interesting and musical, but will require people to rethink this side of operation. Anyway, more to come, hopefully I'll be able to refine the circuit a little and really explore the device from a player point of view! See ya guys in a week or so psw

hmmmm There's a reason for the 28 pages, no one seems to have popped up with a foolproof working DIY sustainer. After more than 5000 visitors you'd think someone would have come forward! It's true however that I'm trying to make a better sustainer, otherwise I could have just bought one for all the stuffing around and expense, so if you want reliable sustain, get one of those. If not, see LK's post above. For a little research, go to page seven of the thread and you'll find links to several patents. Check out the Osbourne patent, it's a lot more than 28 pages and the circuit diagram, which unusually gives all component values, stretches for five pages of diagram alone. As a former Prime Minister down here once said, "Life wasn't mean't to be easy!"...sorry psw

i'M GOING AWAY FOR A WHILE BUT i'LL LEAVE YOU WITH AN UPDATE. Testing, Testing, Testing. One bad thing is there's a lot of heartbreak, disappointment doubt and disillusion in the process.... On the other hand, plenty of pleasant surprises... I played around with the circuit but I'm not entirely sure what I'm doing so I've put it back. I'm testing with a battery and still working so that's good. One problem is with string bending. As there are six drivers, when bending a string it leaves the influence of it's own driver and comes under the influence of a combination of it's own and the interaction of the one next to it. I did some experiments with even more drivers, but this is getting expensive and I have to travel to get them. Today I done some experiments with converting the prototype to an independent driver with some really good results. Using an unusual neutral magnetic orientation I was able to mount the driver up near the neck and make use of all pickups and combinations. There was also some other unusual effects and it appeared that it's drive may be more intense for this conversion and make the pickup top version obsolete. There were a number of different effects that relate to the ultimate potential of the device, the ability to change the timbre of the instrument, what I've called a "natural synthesiser". Bell like tones, whistle, and reedy effects were observed without even inserting effects into the chain. These types of tones make up the building blocks of synthesis. It will be quite some time before this could be exploited, but it does show that the principle of using a driver to change the way a string vibrates to create different sounds is possible. Exciting stuff... But, I have to stay focused on the immediate goal, which is to get a practical sustainer working. I thought I'd come across some major problems the last few days but today's experiments have been very positive. On the subject of controls, I always liked the idea of a momentary push button which could activate the device while being held down for the odd note here and there. I have found a push on, push off illuminated switch 4pdt which looks promising and pretty cheap for the main on switch. Oh, and it looks like a low action will be something of a must. I use strings with 10's on top and on this guitar a fairly high action. The problem is that this means that strings fretted down low are higher than those on the higher frets in relation to the driver. The result is an inconsistancy of response that is more important than pickup height and the like. Anyway, I need a rest so it's off to the sun and surf for me and a little hidaway far away from everyting in the forests of south west victoria, Australia for a week. leaving in a few days. See ya later, psw