syxxstring

Here's the deal.

Pick a system and go with it. Get and read the manual, go with it. The makers of paint know way more than the jobber who will tell you to save $5 on a cheaper primer. ( You wouldn't use cheaper concrete on a house foundation and hope its okay for a nominal sum would you?)

If you use PPG stay all PPG, primer, sealer, base, clear. The same with any system.

Refinish products for body shops are meant to work quickly and emulate factory paint, look at the cars you see. Is the orange peel etc. you see up to your standards. Then you can save a few bucks with a refinish system.

If your doing a lot of graphics, use a custom paint. I like HOK for support, history and product availability. I can't get ppg in 2 oz containers for graphics. HOK's uc35 is designed for up to 35 mil's of paint last I checked, refinish clears will be good for 6 or 7.

My favorites are HOK and Autoair.

Basically, clear will lay out better over a layer of catalyzed clear than over basecoat.

So you clear, level sand and deal with any issues around 600 grit. Then lay on a single flowing coat of clear, you should have less orange peel etc that way. Many people who are good with the spray gun setup etc. deliver to the clients unbuffed then.

I was going off memory. So I was wrong if thats the manual. The other clear I've been trying and not liking is 4:1:1.

Sounds like they steered your right. I have the guy who used to write HOK tech manuals on speed dial, he's painting bodies for me hopefully as I type.

I would use either autoairs dark sealer, or another sealer before laying down my color coats. Especially anything metallic.

Or clear it, level sand, color coats, clear, flow coat.

If you cant find one there, Coast Airbrush will ship world wide.

But anywhere that sells a compressor should have one. They are usually labeled correctly.

Here's the process I've worked out:

Prime

Guide Coat, block sand

Fill

Guide Coat, block sand

Sealer

Paint

Clear

Block sand

Flow coat

Buff and polish, if neccesary.

Depends on the wood, priming, block sanding, filling should be fine for wood.

We did a guitar in a House of Kolor training class that way.

Syxxstring,

The HOK stuff looks pretty amazing, and Coast sells "small" quantities. So can I ask you. I have a mini HVLP coming, 1mm tip which is about the same as a 1.3 on a full size gun. That seems like it'd work with UC35.

To get a quart of Uc35 is about $30, catalyst 1/2 pint is $21, a pint of reducer is around $11 (figure I need some to clean the gun and to reduce the mix, right?) So for $70 I'll have enough catalyst and reducer to mix 1/2 the UC35 in a 2:1:1 ration. pint:cup:cup. giving me a quart of finish, and leaving a half quart of UC35 for me to store, or I could buy more reducer and catalyst . . . .

If I buy just that, will that "quart" or 2k concoction be enough to spray 1 or 2 guitars, obviously I wouldn't mix it all at once since I assume I'll need to do 3 or 4 coats minimum over the SG100 they recommend for candy coating. Since I'm a beginner, I figure there will be a lot of wasted material, but I'm just trying to get a handle on how much of this stuff you need. I've only used rattle can's before this.

Thanks,

Todd

Todd,

First off read the HOK tech manual, come back read it again.

Clear is a 4:1:1 ratio. 4 parts clear, 1 part reducer, 1 part catalyst. Buy your catalyst and reducer in the pint containers if you wont use it all quickly they store better unopened.

I use about 3 ounces mixed per clear session, giving me about 3 flowing coats for a body.

My recomendation would be 2 sessions of clear, level sand then flow coat. Buff and polish as neccesary, but a lot less this way.

For a kandy, I would consider the Kandy base coats, very close in effect much easier to spray.

Are you looking to show wood grain? If so I would clear it, level sand, rescuff with a red scotch brite then kandy it.

If your looking for a solid color, you should use their primer and sealer. Yes you can mix brands and yes paint jobs can blow up, seriously HOK is formulated for custom jobs and a much great mil thickness than production paint. Skimping on the primer is like saying build my house with a styrofoam foundation the foundation doesn't matter. Their primer requires a sealer to paint over, also catalyzed, the good news is the sealer is tintable and the metallic sealer is great. For a kandy job I would go over the metalic sealer, either silver or tinted with 5% pagan gold depending on the top color.

For cleaning the gun I use gun cleaner, you find it at Home Depot labeled Lacquer Thinner. Reducer will work but is way more expensive.

The great thing about Coast is if you call them and ask questions they know what they're talking about, more so than I do.

John

Careful with the CFM requirements of the spray gun, most little nail gun compressors won't keep up with something super efficient like and Iwata Lph-80.

The compressor will have a CFM rating on it, it will need to be probably 4 or 5 at 20 psi for most little guns, the LPH-80 is about half that.

There is a quality difference between the way a HF gun and a good Iwata, Sata, or Devilbiss will spray. The atomization is finer and you really can dial out most of the orange peal. Also the cheep guns I had always would blow a seal or mess up in the middle of a job...

For a good spray set up you need:

A compressor that will supply enough CFM. (Air) Otherwise your spray will change as air goes up and down, hello orange then grapfruit, then lemon peal on the same job.

A good regulator. It has to be a regulator not a cheater valve, or air restricting valve. (Regulators are constant preasure, the others a % of whats available)

Air filtration and drying. Even in las vegas, I have to run a dryer.

Fittings and hose that will deliver the air properly.

A gun.

I've used Kustom Shops, Alsa's and HOK's.

2k Poly is still poly...

The durability of a finish is dependent on a few things:

1. The material-

Generally, when properly applied-

A single stage or 1k(component) Lacquer is usually a physically drying material. Meaning that as solvent evaporates the surface dries and forms a film. These are the paints Detroit abandoned by the early 60's because they were high upkeep labor intensive finishes. Reintroduction of a solvent will soften them they also build slowly thus 25-30 coat lacquer jobs, you had to do it this way because you couldn't get enough material on to build a robust coating. Usually the molecules of these paints bond to each other and the paint is not chemically changed during application, leaving them more exposed to damage from solvents.(Sweat, beer, thinner, etc...)

Obviously some epoxies and polyeurethanes are 1k and slightly different.

2k or Uro's also called automotive eurethanes are a not physically drying. Reintroduction of solvent to a dried surface will not damage it unless its a very strong solvent. These paints are chemically changed after application, you take molecule A + B and get molecule C after curing. The surface is more durable due to these properties. Film build is a lot lower and you can do it in less coats. In the guitar world they get a bad name because they weren't used in the 50's and get confused with the same thick finish you find on a factory guitar. But there is no doubt there is less finish thickness with a properly applied 2k uro than lacquer.

2. Application - A paints durability can be hindered greatly by over application, poor mixing, or not following application windows and instructions. Simply you put it on wrong and it won't last.

3. Surface Prep - Removal of oils etc... A clean properly preped surface will make a huge difference in a coating lasting.

All that to say, depending on the paint coming out of your rattle can it can be just as hard or soft as paint from a gun. The application method does not change the paint itself. There are a few 2k rattle can systems out there now, I know Coast has one besides Alsa Corp's.

A cheap gun can work if you dial it in correctly but they can be much trickier to dial in. Its really about what you want and need and what sprayable finishes are available to you.

Your not gonna be happy with a flake that will shoot through an airbrush. You can get some at any hobby store that sells fascolor paints. Its tiny.

You can sprinkle it on or salt shaker it. Its a technique that's been used for years. Its a mess and a different flake look.

Sprayed flakes tend to settle flat, sprinkled on end up in all sorts of directions more bass boatey.

The Roth Flake Buster sprinkles them on, well more of sprinkles with a fire hose.

You will need several coats of clear to bury them then level sand and recoat.

Doing it at home with out guns will be tough.

Your not gonna be happy with a flake that will shoot through an airbrush. You can get some at any hobby store that sells fascolor paints. Its tiny.

You can sprinkle it on or salt shaker it. Its a technique that's been used for years. Its a mess and a different flake look.

Sprayed flakes tend to settle flat, sprinkled on end up in all sorts of directions more bass boatey.

The Roth Flake Buster sprinkles them on, well more of sprinkles with a fire hose.

You will need several coats of clear to bury them then level sand and recoat.

Doing it at home with out guns will be tough.

Look into AutoAir. They make some great metallic silvers. Coastairbrush.com

UV inhibitors are added to the carrier and clear and not every product uses the same quality or type of pigment.

Look in your phone book for auto body supply shops. They'll have multiple brands and widths. The yellow I think Allclad stuff is good and the Blue 3m vinyl tape is good.

Personally I don't like the paper fineline tape.

Id be worried about its ability to not fade and resist UV. Why use ink when known products will work for resonable $$.

Any airbrush artist should be able to stencil something in with no overspray. We use stencils to airbrush stuff all the time.

Your other option is to have it cut in masking vinyl and spray or brush over it. Most sign shops should be able to make you a mask.

Reduced 4oz shoudl be fine.

Adding soap to the water, just a drop of oil free soap, will help prevent clogging of the sand paper.

The risk you run is water entering some of the small holes causing the wood to swell and crack your finish. Wet sanding is not always the best option for a guitar.

As far as clear, you really need to go back and look at the product you used.

You call it primer. If it is I would put on a satin clear, primers will dry out and turn chalky left to there own.

Read the directions for time windows to avoid adhesion issues. Most primers have a short window before you have adhesion issues but will have directions if you miss the window.

If it is a single stage paint then you should be good.

And way too expensive, talked to them at NAMM. Just seemed like over engineering something that already works.

Also consider a cheap tyvex paint suit, it will protect you and prevent all the dust from you and your clothes from contaminating your paint.

According to Jon Kosmoski's book, founder of House Of Kolor, the painter is just as much a source of contaminants as anything else.

How thick are the lines? Anything that's clear will work as long as it dries clear. Id worry about the flake being too big for the lines.

The black resin candles they make for fixing skis and snowboards I've used for stuff like that on cheap guitars before. Your mileage may vary.

I'm going to have to say negative on that one. In order to use this, you need to light it on fire, and drip the flaming drop of melted p-tex(resin) onto the hole/scratch/dent/dimple.

Fire + Finished guitars = bad IMHO

You hold it far enough away that the flame isn't touching the guitar. Not that hard to figure out really.

Plus with a poly finish not like a candles going to damage it unless your super careless. The flames when i've done it are really tiny.

I've fixed a few cheapies this way when I needed something quick and easy that would look okay.

Part of the reason I did this is many factory finishes are PTex resins. (per a friend who does a fair amount of work for Fender/Jackson/Charvel)

The black resin candles they make for fixing skis and snowboards I've used for stuff like that on cheap guitars before. Your mileage may vary.

The problem is it's not a spatter technique at all. Its a flake or effect paint like HOK's Metajules.

Simple if your used to spraying flake, but flake is at least 2 sessions, not 2 coats, of clear to be able to bury and then level sand and polish. There are some other tricks to it as well. Plus lots of extra time cleaning the booth because flake goes everywhere, spray it outside a booth and you'll be finding it for years.

You really see how much flake there is in this pic:

Thought I might add that when I use these larger flakes I apply two coats of HS clear then once cured, I rub it back flat with 800 grit paper and reapply one wet coat of clear this is referred to as flowcoating.Flowcoating gives a mirror flat finish straight off the gun as all of this flattening off and polishing just seems too time consuming to me.

I agree depending on how the finish lays out. I aim for not needing to do much work but build the possibility into my plan, otherwise I promise things on too agressive of a schedule and guarantee a run. The guitar I posted earlier has 2 sizes of silver flake then Nightmare Blue Autoair, then a blue flake, so lots to bury. It looks so good in light and photographs like poo. (course my camera skills suck too)