Scrappy_Squirrel

I don't want to give an average angle. I wouldn't want to be held responsable for any damage it might do. You shouldn't see many guitars with more than a 5 degree angle though. It would take maybe half an hour to draw out your bridge, nut, and what not to determine what angle you want. You can have no neck angle and use a TOM bridge or have an angle and use a Fender bridge. The bridge does not determine the method of construction. The thing is, if you use a TOM bridge with no neck angle, you'd probably have to recess the bridge to avoid having the neck sit too proud(in a purely asthetic sense) of the body. And if you used a neck angle with a hardtail(fender) bridge, it would be a very shallow angle. I wonder why no one else has been replying to this? Does no one know this stuff, or am I just doing too good a job of explaining it? Or...does no one care?hmmm

←

You are doing a good job of explaining it all...maybe there aren't many people on the board today. Perhaps noone else cares... Regardless, thanks for all your help thegarehanman!

What is the smallest angle a TOM can accommodate without recessing and without the neck being garishly high above the body?

Very nice! I'm glad to see you doing this. I also considered monkeypod a while back and checkened out, lol; it will be cool to see it progress. keep posting.

Not at all, that's all dependent upon what bridge your're using and wether or not you have a neck angle. Only the fretboard will be proud of the body if you have a neck angle whereas some of the neck(and fretboard) will lie above the top of the body if you have no neck angle but need the clearance.

←

I see...so, in effect the neck angle, or lack thereof, and fretboard height above the body, are all dependant on which bridge will be used in the build, hmmm...

1. TOM style bridge = Neck angle + fretboard just above body.

2. Fender style = No neck angle + fretboard and a little neck above body top.

All depending on more exact measurements determined by the exact bridge used and body top shape.

In your experience, is there a neck angle/fretboard height measurement one could use that would be nearly universal for the retrofit of most any bridge on the market? I'm guessing not.

Compensation is neccessary because of string guage. Thicker strings require more compensation. You really only have to worry about compensation when you're installing a TOM bridge because you don't have that much play with the saddles. Hardtail bridges and the like also require compensation, but more often than not, the saddles have enough play where you don't have to worry about(1/16" of) compensation when installing it. I always just use stewmac's calculator to figure out compensation. Most guitar scale lenghts won't need compensation of more than about .1" though.

←

Thanks for the explaination. Sometimes the details can be a bit confusing when it comes to all of these measurements for a new build.

Although, I have one more question regarding neck construction, attachment etc. hopefully the original posters question was answered because I've outright hijacked this thread, unintentionally of course. It would be nice to have a lot of this neck related stuff in one thread anyway. Bugman96, If I'm being a dick just tell me and I'll butt out.

Anyway, is there a hard and fast rule for how high the fretboard should stand above the top of the guitar after the neck is attached?

based off what your saying i dont think ill be using it since it is my first build. but wut would be a good wood that has a tone simular to mahogany and easy to work with. i have nothing against (sp?) mahogany but i want to see if i can find a something that has an intresting or different grain.

not sure if this helps but i play mainly rock and metal.

thanks for all the help so far

←

White or Black Limba, or Korina as it is sometimes called. White Limba is pretty boring really; in my opinion anyway. Black Limba can have some interesting dark grain patterns. My current build is Black Limba so I am momentarily biased. However, Limba is known for it's mahogany like qualities in many ways.

i was wondering what are the tonal properties of Padouk? I personaly think it would look great with an ebony fret board. how would that sound?

also how would a Padouk body sound and would it look good?

←

I used to have a Peavey Padauk guitar and it was a very bright but nice sounding guitar. Although it had a maple neck and fretboard and a brass nut... I really liked the guitar anyway. I sold it because I needed the money. I think padauk makes a very fine guitar IMHO. It's just like any other wood in that it depends on what else you're attaching to it and the quality of the work that determines the sound. It's a hard and dense wood so the sound is probably similar to maple or bubinga.

Padauk is a very waxy wood and can be irritating to the eyes and respiratory tract. It can also be difficult to glue and finish so keep that in mind. When glueing it be sure to soak/wipe the joints with acetone first to avoid glue joint failure. Padauk varies in color from orange to dark brown. As far as how it would look it all depends on what you're looking for. It's not a very exciting grain but if you don't care about figured woods then it would probably suit you fine. I personally like some of the very orange pieces of Padauk I have seen. Your mileage may vary.

The breakpoint is always the same thing, but yes, it would be at a different place on a compensated nut. The scale length would NOT be an average. This is because all of the frets are still positioned using the set scale length of the neck. Say(for instance) you have a 24.75" true scale length. This would be considered a 24.811 compensated scale length(for TOM positioning purposes). The nut could potentially be compensated also. However, the frets are still positioned based on 24.75" scale. And it's the twelfth fret that is half the distance of the scale length.

←

What is being "compensated" for in the bridge positioning? Also, does the additional compensation still apply to other scale lengths and is there a formula for working out the additional "compensation"? For instance: On a Fender, the true scale length is 25.5. Would the compensated distance of the bridge be 26.011?

breakpoint: Where the strings meet the nut closest to the fretboard

←

To be sure I'm understanding this correctly:

Does this mean that the breakpoint will vary from string to string if one were using a compensated nut like the earvana? If so, I imagine the scale length in this instance would be the AVERAGE string distance from the "breakpoint" to the twelfth fret... it is the twelfth fret and not the fourteenth, correct?

...measure acurately from the breakpoint of the nut to the fourteenth fret.

←

What do you mean by "breakpoint"? Is it the top of the nut where it meets the headstock, the bottom of the nut where the nut meets the fretboard or the point where the strings touch the nut?

I do yes, when I'm working longways.

But I then polish them with 0000 grade again afterwards.

I'm not one for startlingly bright frets. But they do get quite a good polish.

←

I like to use Naphtha which is an industrial degreaser & thinner available in most any hardware store. I learned about it in one of the Dan Erlewine books. It leaves no residue when it evaporates and it will not introduce water into your fretboard like windex will. Afterward you can oil the fretboard with mineral oil or rosewood essential oil (Bois De Rose). Sometimes I use sandalwood or cedar oil too. A lot of people also just use plain lemon oil to both clean and oil the fretboard at the same time (one step process). Lemon oil is just mineral oil with citrus terpines in it. My prefered process is the Naphtha and sandalwood oil though. It replentishes the fretboard with natural oils and smells damn good to boot.

Thank you sorry.

Here is the correct link

Guitar

←

You could build a better one within your price range.

Hey Zion,

The way I understand it chambering does little to effect tone except a possible minor loss in sustain but with a slight gain in resonance and a bit more bloom. This wouldn't sound anything like an acoustic. Gibson chambers their solidbody LP style guitars. The only difference is that you will need to put a cap or back on it, depending on your design.

It seems we're looking for similar tone from our respective guitars. Have you checked out the threads here on commonly used instrument woods and their objective tonal properties? I'm assuming you have.

http://jemsite.com/axes/htm_features/wood.htm

http://www.warmoth.com/guitar/options/options_bodywoods.cfm

http://www.warmoth.com/guitar/necks/necks....uitar_neckwoods

Perhaps if you went for a Limba instead of a mahogany body and Limba neck you'll get what you're after without having to go with a maple neck (more resonance with a bit wider frequency range/more top end). Or, maybe you could try a maple cap with a mahogany body al-a-LP style.

The maple fingerboard story does seem a bit off. I don't understand why necks can be built from maple with any fretboard combo but you can't have a maple fretboard...seems really strange to me...

Anyway, the woods I chose for my project we're for a very particular purpose that seems to be close to what you are looking for. This is my first complete-from-scratch build so I'm going only by descriptions I have been given for wood qualities...in the end it's all subjective to what you know and want. If you want to know what I've finalized and my reasoning behind it let me know. Since we are looking for a similar sound then perhaps my combo will work for you as well.

If it's the look of a maple fretboard you're going for then it may be difficult to get if there is indeed an issue with it. Maybe pink ebony, canary wood or snakewood will do what you want. Check out - http://www.gilmerwood.com/instrument_wood-fingerboards.htm They have photos of the different exotic woods they sell for fingerboards. This might give you a better idea of what your design options are.

I hope this overly verbose post has helps you in some way. Alternately, save yourself and run, really fast and really hard because there may be no turning back.

May the tone be with you.

~Justin

EMG's won't make a guitar string vibrate any longer...no pickup will do that...it's got more sensitivity and a little less string pull...so you hear the string till it stops vibrating...

You can get things to feedback...and with more control, by filtering to specific frequencies like with a wha...still got to play reasonably loud...but the tone man, got to sacrifice tone to get it...

Try this old trick...stick your headstock up against the speaker baffle (the actual wood, not the cloth). This causes the speaker's vibrations to travel through the neck and vibrate the strings like a sustainer...   John Jorgesson did this on the Hellecaster's track "Like Father, Like Son"...neat trick for recording....

pete

Oh...It might even work better on a guitar like the Dano...more sensitive to vibration than a great big heavy LP...

And...here's something interesting...I saw some research somewhere where they measured the sustain of an LP vs. A Strat...the Strat had more "Sustain"...the fact is the LP is louder for longer, it's a fat sustain...the strat has a really sharp, short attack, then sustains quietly...it might be longer but you don't really hear it...

BTW...I've been playing with the Sustainer on an LP and I've got to say, I prefer it on the strat...The LP already has that big fat sustain, that's what it does...with the strat you get the percussive stuff, and the big fat sustain...a lot more variety to play with...!!!

pete

←

So, what is it about an LP that would sustain louder and longer than a strat? Woods? bridge? scale? set neck? combination? I wonder if the springs on a strat trem sustain much of the vibration they are talking about?

Ok, Scrappy talking to you on 2 threads at once, so let me get the Pau Ferro thing going over here- Is it possible to bleach and get a finsih/look similar to maple (color more than figuring)

←

LOL, this is funny! Anyway, I don't know if it can be bleached or not. I've never bleached a piece of wood honestly. I've whitewashed woods but never bleached them. Seems like it might be difficult to find a wood similar in color and tone to maple but different expansion rate.

Exactly- We devide and conquer..no that must have been a work related thread:)

Serously. Pau Ferro has come up on my thread and I wonder if it could be bleached and finished to look and feel more like maple? Hoep we both get to help each other out-

Not sure if cross posts are allowed, but I've asked some of these questions on mimf and Sduncan-

Cheers

←

*Dejavu*

I recommended the Pau Ferro. I don't know if it can be bleached or not but I'm sure someone more experienced can help. I think there's an acho in here...

I actually bought a beautiful piece of Pau Ferro to make a fretboard out of but realised my time and tool limits and reconsidered. I went for the StewMac preradiused option instead.

SSquirrel-

We're looking at almost exactly the same coin form different sides:) Take a look at my thread http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=17946 and now I see that you have been in there-

Most on this and other sites are telling me that neck has more impact than even a cap- Just like you , I want to avoid the brightness.. I have strats for that.

So considering I am not building a neck myself, I wonder if anyone is building a maple fretboard/mahogany neck-

←

Yeah, I read your post and was like "Damn, this guy's got a similar issue but...it's kinda' not..." LOL. Hopefully between our two posts we'll reach a conclusion through combined efforts (asking a similar question in different ways to get more detailed answers). The only reason I started my own post was because my woods are different than yours and I'm not familiar with the woods I'm using enough to answer my own question. I've read that fretboard woods generally just increase/decrease sustain, sharpen/dull the attack and add/reduce highs... that said, I'm hoping to increase sustain, sharpen my attack but dampen highs without losing clarity, is that even possible?!

I'm still considering doing a string through for added sustain but it would be nice to do some divebombs occassionally.

Pau Ferro

I recently had a dillemma with neck fabrication and tools etc... so I bought a pre-radiused compound radius fretboard from stewmac. The one thing I didn't take into consideration, and has me pannicking a bit, is that the scale length has changed from my original design. I was originally going with a Gibson scale but buying the pre-radiused option I had to go with the fender scale; which is ok because it's more comfortable to me anyway.

My concern is this:

I know that a longer scale adds some highs to the tone but I'm trying to keep a somewhat Gibson LP-like mahogany tone with more bass clarity and better resonance than the standard LP (with the same dampened highs that most Gibsons exhibit). My wood combo and configuration is such and I'm wondering if I should change my order from an ebony fretboard to Indian rosewood fretboard in keeping with my preferences? I'm particularly concerned that Ebony will be too bright for P90's. I originally chose ebony because I thought the bubinga, being oily, would dampen the highs too much if I also had a rosewood fingerboard. I didn't realize, at the time, that the longer scale would also add more highs.

Body: Limba (2 piece) Gibson style. Chambered for weight relief

Cap: Slightly figured 5/8" Bubinga (1 piece)

Neck: Set/laminated 2 piece/25.5/Limba/Carbon fiber reinforced/double exp truss rod

Headstock: 13 deg scarfed/grover locking tuners

Fretboard: Ebony or Indian Rosewood?

Fretwire: Nickle/jumbo

Pickups: 2-3 custom wound P90's or some hotter P90-like variation

Bridge: Hipshot six string contoured trem

While I like clarity in the upper range there is something about a bright sounding guitar that I find impossible to tame. There's a harsh rasp that never goes away even when attempting to dial it out. The only way I can describe it is "stiffness"... if that makes any sense. I prefer more of a fluid clarity as apposed to stiff clarity in the upper range, complex and bell-like harmonic richness in the mids and tight percussive clarity in the lower registers. I also prefer tighter strings, longer necks and a compound radius for low action and clear bends. I think the Fender scale will suit me fine.

Great Trems!!!! I have the Flat plate version on a strat and couldn't be happier with it. I also have a Hardtail 7 bridge. Very high quality. As far as palm muting goes the coutoured trem is very similar in feel to a PRS Trem except for the 6 screw design of the PRS

←

Good to hear it!

I'm not fond of the chunkiness of Floyds and there's too much stickin' up to comfortably rest the palm onto. Besides, I don't use the trem enough to justify the expense or complication of a floyd anyway.

Nobody else uses the hipshot trems?!

Well the tried and true and extremely simple answer in today's world of ubiquitous modeling is feedback-

I develop all my models in my studio so I can run it through a full range non-colored system - It seems so strange to get feedback in such a pristine envirornment, but some models are so foucsed that you really can'l help getting feedback on many of them-

Try 2 or 3 models that provide an overlapping range center frquencies and you can tune the sustain-Or use the old Tom schultz trick and include wah in the modle and use the wah to chang the frequency focus on the fly-

Another cool think about such control is that you can get usable feedback with practically no distortion-

Hope this helps

←

I did a few things to my Ibanez GAX70 guitar that increased sustain two-fold! Unfortunately this only works if you have a TOM bridge.

1. I turned my TOM bridge into a Tone-pros TOM using only a drill, and a tap. Just drill two holes in the TOM through to the post, tap the threads into the holes you drilled and buy the appropriate size threaded screws. $11.00 for the tap.

2. I measured the space between the body and the bottom of my TOM, cut a solid block of wood to fit under the TOM, release the thumb screws so that the TOM rests on the block.

3. Grover locking keys

-----------------------------------------------------

Sealing the ends (or end grain) doesn't stop the wood from drying or accepting moisture. What it does do is control or lets say slow down the process in those areas. The end grain draws and releases moisture faster than other parts of the wood. This uneven drying effect causes the damage. If you seal the ends and wrap a bit of plastic around the wood. It will slow the changes down and that makes damage much less likely. You won't stop the process just control how fast the changes occur.

Yea, North and Northeast keep changing kinda blows my mind sometimes. North West just kills me. They have built so many condo towers in the last 5 years. It just amazes me. My company is working on several down by the Ross island also. I lived in the Hawthorn area for a bit, moved to Sellwood, and then bought a house off Taylers Ferry in SW. Some things have changed but its still about same as ten years ago I suppose (house prices not withstanding). Don't worry to much about not having all the tools, you will re-build over time. I have most of the larger tools to do whatever, and a good chunk of hand tools. I also have a few pieces of wood lying around. It will be cool to learn some new tricks from another builder.

Peace, Rich

←

Maybe there is some hope in accomplishing this before I leave. Only time will tell.

Thanks for everyone's input. Moocho grassy-ass.

That sucks!  I'm sorry to hear it but I guess it's something we all can learn from. 

←

It's not such a big deal--I'd lost my interest in the guitar anyway, since I always knew it wasn't going to be something I really wanted to play.

But I did learn plenty from the project.

I purposefully didn't take care to reduce the guitar to exposure from the elements, so that's part of it too. Perhaps if I'd worked quicker, and sealed the wood sooner, I wouldn't have had trouble? Seems to me that's another reason for using sealer.

←

That's cool. Sounds like it was an experiment from the beginning. Nice.

So, sealing the ends with wax, paint or glue will keep it from drying out and warping?...Maybe I could rough cut and laminate everything in AZ (except the cap and neck joint), seal the edges with something that I can sand off (like laquer based sanding sealer) and then cover in plastic for the road to Oregon. Damn, this is becoming complicated!

Let me know when you get settled in Portland. My shop ain't the biggest or the best, but I am sure you could get some cutting and such done in there.

Peace, Rich

←

Rich

Wow, thanks man, that's awesome! I'll be sure to do that, if for no other reason than to drop by and say hi, see what you've built and talk shop. My wife and I will be living at my moms in Vancouver until we can get our **** together; everything we own will be in storage until that point. Meanwhile I'm trying to do as much glueing and milling as I can before we move at the end of August so that all I have left is some finish work.

I'm hoping to find a place in the Alberta arts region, or whatever we can find close to where the action is (Hawthorn, etc...). Portland has changed so much in the ten years I've been away... Alberta used to be full on ghetto and now it's the new Hawthorne (Who'da thunk?)! I used to live off Killingsworth and Cleveland when I lived there ten years ago. It hasn't changed much but it's knowhere near the ghetto it used to be.

-----------------------------------------

Back to the subject:

So, basically the most important part is moisture content?...

IDCH:

That sucks! I'm sorry to hear it but I guess it's something we all can learn from. Hopefully I won't have the same issue! I ordered a 16x20 piece of 4/4 Black Limba from Eisenbrand once and within a week of being in Tucson it was twisted beyond use and developed a split down the center. There's no way I could build anything from that! I hope that's not the fate of all Limba in Tucson... I'm hearing a dirge grow louder in the distance. Time for more

Hey unclej!

Which thread are you talking about? I looked several pages back and nothing seemed to fit the subject of wood seasoning.

Dude we are gonna be neighbors! I am in Portland. Don't buy any more wood until you get here. You will have plenty of suppliers in town. As for the wood. Seal the ends and wrap it up in plastic until you get it to your new shop. That will just ease up on the rapid changes while you are in transit.

To respond to the heat treating and baking question. Don't... If you over dry the wood it will be worthless. Not to mention it will draw the moisture right back like a sponge. Kiln drying is a faster safer way to dry wood because it is a controlled drying process. Don't confuse kiln drying with baking wood in an oven.

Peace, Rich

←

I already purchased all the lumber I need. I was hoping to glue up the lumber, rough cut the body, cap and neck, cut the mortise pocket and tenon for the neck all before I leave Tucson in one month. If that's not possible, due to warpage considerations, then I'm stuck in limbo for an undetermined amount of time! Although, I really don't want to press the issue to the point of screwing it all up. I want to do it right.

See, shop space is the crux of my issue. I need to do what I can do in AZ, now, in a real wood shop, before I hit Portland because I won't have any shop in Portland... My own shop consists of a few power hand tools (general carpentry stuff: jigsaw, palm sander, skill saw, drill, screw gun, laminate trimmer, typical hand and measuring tools...) and whatever basement, garage or backyard I can work in. I used to have a lot of specialty luthiers tools but they all disappeared from storage. As it is I'm having to slowly re-buy all of my **** to get going again. So, until I can procure shop space, a job, a place to live of my own and some new specialty tools in Portland I'm left getting as much done as I can before I leave AZ, otherwise I may get nothing done for a long time to come.

I know...TMI. I'm just trying to explain why I want to start this project as soon as possible without screwing the pooch.

Heres a Noob Question. Does the Kiln dried wood really make a diffference ? I am converting to hardtail, and I have found some sources for kiln dried wood fairly cheap, just wondering if that really made a difference, or if I should find some that is dried naturally.

←

I've read mixed reports but I've come to the conclusion that air dried "tonewoods" must be better because they're more expensive...kidding. Anyway, I ordered a mixture of air and kiln dried so I guess I'll find out. Luckily the kiln dried stuff has had plenty of time to air dry in AZ.

I'm not sure how to answer your question really as I'm pretty new to building instruments from scratch myself. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in.