axegarden

haha well now you got me thinking I can try to bleach one of my pieces of scrap khaya. what product would you recommend?

Well the black/sandback seems to work for my purposes so long as the color on top "agrees" with the wood tone. It sinks into the pores and brings contrast just as I would expect - As you can see in one of my pics, the sanded-back black looks a lot like woodfiller (I haven't applied any woodfiller to these stain samples - I guess I should get some in order to best replicate my end result). I do need to do a better job sanding (with grain raising), maybe then I'll get a clean look with it. I've heard of the bleach trick but I haven't seen it used anywhere online, and once sanded the khaya isn't all that brown ( i mean it is brown but not so much that I can't work with it). And I'm all in on doing a blue-ish stain. I've seen several online, blue seems to be a favorite. Red/brown/yellow is .... too natural looking, kindof old school IMO (these colors bring classic les pauls to mind), and I'm not interested in it right now. I want to pay homage to the original finish with a nice blue.

Dude thank you muchly for taking the time to make these graphics. I didn't think of that at all. Do you think wedges like this will be "safe" for a soft wood like Mahogany? Should I just make these wedges with scrap pine around my garage? I need more clamps...

I finally have some update with the ol axe (I'm a horticulturist for a living and I'm hella busy at this time of year, leaving me tired and exhausted at the end of the day - no energy for the rebuild). I tried clamping the body closed to see if the cracks could be shut, but the angles of the body, and my novice with clamps, made it difficult to determine where and how I should clamp. Also, the neck pocket crack (part of it) is in a diagonal direction to the planes I can clamp. the meantime, I sanded my sample Khaya/African Mahogany to 220, and have tried staining some Angelus leather dyes. I tried the - black first, sand back , and add color - trick, but i reckon the wood is a little too dark to pull this off without a pretty dark result, depending on the colors applied after black. I tried a black to blue to turquoise that turned out pretty sharp. The angelus purple seems a bit dark for my purposes. I did a purp + light blue (where + = sanding in between such that the first color is mostly relegated to the deepest grain), and a navy blue + turquoise that turned out veery similar. A rose + turquoise turned out really nice, may be a keeper. Light blue + jean blue turned out to be a nice indigo. My last photo is a collection of the 6 i've tried so far: 1. black + blue + turq, 2. = black + navy blue + purp. 3. purp + light blue 4. navy blue + turq 5. rose + turq 6. light blue + jean blue

Yes my dude that's exactly what I'm aiming for! Nice axe you've got there I like that shape. From what I can tell the plastic socket doesn't actually alter the size of the jack opening, it just changes the length of the channel, so I think something as simple as some o-rings might get the job done. Getting it out is going to be a pain though.

this is a great idea if I can't get it out

The input jack is on the top of the guitar. You can see it (the plastic "jack socket") in the first and fifth photos of my last post. The original finish was opaque and covered up the existence of this jack "socket", as it was also finished so you didn't see the socket at all. I assume the socket is to refine the diameter of the channel/opening for the metal hardware of the input jack, maybe just to stabilize the cable as it sits in the jack. At this point it is getting sanded down every time I sand the top., and I'd rather not have the obvious black plastic in the middle of the nice stained top I want. I asked Rich from IbanezRules, and he doesn't know of any replacement for this part. I'm really tempted to force it out (through the back cavity by pushing on a small lip I can feel), stain the body and the socket as normal, and then finding some replacement hardware, (which would be invisible thanks to the shape of the top) to accomplish the same function it had/has.

Was able to finish 95% of the sanding today (Random Orbital Sander). Only the inside of the horns remain for hand sanding. Ill tell ya whut this thing is not fun to sand, it's entirely curved. I def have some rough areas around the hard edges, and I hope I can make them look better with finer hand sanding (I used up to 120 so far). The crack in the bottom of the horn seems only to be in the horn, it IS in the joint between the body pieces, but only seems a hair deep. The neck pocket crack looks scary. I can tell it's visible on the inside of the pocket for an inch or so. I bought some clamps and Titebond 2 - I welcome any tips. There is a problem with the input jack. It's plastic. I hate it and can't get it out. I can sortof manage a flathead to push on it from the back cavity, but it doesn't seem to budge. Suggestions? I may need to replace it too. I also got my test piece of African Mahogany. I called around and couldn't find anyone local that had some, so I ordered a piece of "microlumber" from Cook Woods in Oregon. It seems to match pretty well. I have a dozen Angelus dyes and a dozen more Crimson Shots on the way.

Ah thanks for this. I'll post more pictures when I sand the metallic layer off and get some more feedback. I'm a little worried that the crack that seems to be coincident with the seam between body joints IS the joint, and that the crack at the top of the neck pocket is .... a structural problem. The guitar never gave me any guff before so I hope I can repair these and it will continue to behave as normal.

So I was able to scrape the rest of the finish off today. The metallic layer persists. I uncovered a few cracks, two around the neck pocket/heel and the other in the bottom of the top horn which seems like it might coincide with the joint between two pieces of the mahogany body. What am I to do about these cracks? Glue and clamps?

I'm not sure about the final finish yet, that's why I'm here to gather the knowledge goodies. I don't have a spray rig, so that rules out spray lacquer. It seems the easiest option for me is a pre-catalytic lacquer from a can. I guess I was referring to the top cavities for the trem & pickups, but the back too. God I would love it if the cavities popped out whole. I'll try it but not force it. The perfectionist part of me wants to get the finish out, but I know that's some hella sanding that I don't want to do, and you're right they'll never be visible unless a pickup is out.

Here's today's small progress. The metallic layer is definitely a pain. It bubbles a little but still won't readily come off. I don't know how I got it off so easily with my fingers when the hole first opened a fear years ago. It seems like it'll sand off easily enough. It's a little hard to make out but the grain looks glorious so far (for mahogany, yaknow). The bubbling tip helped. I had to point the heat gun closer to the body, essentially. I move it around to keep one area from burning, but (funnily enough) I glanced away, as one does, to see a bird or something but I looked back to find a bubble and crack in the finish opening up - I scraped. It came off easy. It was nice. I can definitely see "the range" of temperature idea. In my experience you can see the finish become glossier as it softens, like melting butter. For some reason this finish is quick to discolor, and give off chemical fumes, well before it begins to bubble. But all is well, next I'll tackle the back and sides, and maybe try to get some scrapes inside the cavities.

Yeah I figured I might have to get it hotter to get that metallic layer off. Whatever the metallic material is, it is acting much different than the rest. So, as I was heat-gunning I started to notice the blue beginning to discolor, and I scraped when I saw this. Not brown/black, just starting to get more grey-ish - i figured this was a sign to scrape. But I'll get it a little hotter, and look for bubbling. On another note, I talked to a carpenter coworker this morning, he suggested I might need something like Minwax Pre-stain Conditioner. It seems like that stuff is used for porous wood, but it also seems it's used for oil-based dyes. Anyone have experience with it? Is it necessary for my project?

Here's the result of the 30 min of heat-gunning I had time to do today. It looks like the "Jet Blue" finish is essentially a layer of metallic silver with trans blue over it. Strangely, the metallic layer was less willing to come off in scrapes. I hope it comes off with stripper? This is a small portion of a part where the metallic layer came off in a chunk. You can see how porous the mahogany wood is underneath. Any recommendations for a good wood-filler compatible with staining/dyeing? Or a stripper?

You're very right, that is a frightening image. I guess I'll leave shielding out of it.

Thanks for the advice, I have a feeling this won't be my only refinish. I've been totally enthralled with the subject for like 72 hours and I'm already planning to get some maple top Tele Kit, lol. I've always wanted a Tele and what's better than one I assembled, right? haha. Any suggestions? It seems like Warmoth is a quality kit provider. I really want that small Tele-type neck too, I forget what it's called/the shape. Today's the equinox, so that makes some sense. I just got my soldering kit so I'll disassemble tonight and scrape tomorrow, probably. I should be able to get this done by May. I'll find an orbital sander somewhere, and I guess I should go ahead and order some Crimson water dyes and Angelus alcohols. I'll get black, (royal) blue, and purple, from each company, and see what results I can get on some scrap mahogany that I'll pick up this coming week. I get a little obsessed with new projects and this one has me literally dreaming about finishing guitars thanks all

Ok that all makes sense, thank you for this. But another user in this thread, Drak, had said that they mix water into alcohol dies "if the situation calls for it". In those cases, because some water is in the alcohol stain, subsequent water based stains would blotch together, right? They will only stay apart from each other if one color stain is 100% alcohol and the other color stain is 100% water, I assume. I'm gonna check out your thread today (as long as my gf stops making fun of all the time i'm spending reading about guitar building, lol you know how it is).

From what I have thus gathered, wipe-on finishes are generally softer, like vinyl, and doesn't provide as much "glossiness" as spray-on finishes. And since I do not have a spray rig, it seems a spray-on pre-catalyzed lacquer is the way to go (considering my novice experience, equipment and $$$). The ones I've seen done online seem just fine for me. As for weather, I might be effed. I live in a humid area of Virginia, like with a creek and swamp on my 7 acres. The warm weather is typically humid. I have a garage with two doors on opposite walls, such that fresh air can blow through. That's where I was planning to spray. What is the ideal humidity? Apparently pre-cats should also be applied when it is slightly warm, rather than chilly. Does this mean I can (likely) only spray on like, today (the vernal equinox) and the autumn equinox? lol like not summer, not winter, but those sweet spots in between?

Well I don't plan on using the paint-form, that seems ... less than ideal. I would use foil-like metal shielding. There is a single coil in this guitar but I almost never use it (I know they tend to be noisier. What is the logic behind your comment? I only have novice-level knowledge of electronics. In my experience, I thought humbuckers were typically "hot", and would likely pick up "noise". I appreciate your input, thanks!

Aha! Tell me the secrets of why or why not you would mix water stains with alcohol stains. I imagine they "sit" at different layers in the wood, since they have different dry times? Besides that I know the colors have a different vibrancy...Sounds like you "washed" it? Like applying a tint all over? What do you think of using a pre-catalyzed lacquer for the finishing coats? I'm pretty sure the existing top is a poly-x, and I like that glassy surface. Can I achieve something like that without a spray rig? Thx bizman

I'll get a metal one then hah. I can definitely round the corners, I'm afraid the mahogany is soft and I'll scratch it. I'm still not sure what product to use for the final finish. It seems like after stains are dried I apply a few coats of sanding sealer like Mohawk, but then the final finish is yet a mystery to me. Ideally I'd have pretty glassy surface.

I'm definitely going to be shielding the cavities, then. Can you link to your water dye build? I'm going to take the heat-gunning slow to avoid these pitfalls. I also have a plastic scraper to use in order to avoid damaging the wood. Hopefully it won't be too hot for a plastic scraper. On the subject of lacquer - don't lacquers give a yellow tint? I want a nice glassy clear coat on top.

lol You got me on that dachshund joke. It really does look like that. That pic got me thinking though - if that tobacco-like color were blue, it would be pretty sick. Although it looks like 2 different colors, like they don't blend it's just tobacco and black, yaknow? Maybe I'll try it on some scrap wood. Is the purpose of the aluminum sheeting inside the cavities to create a faraday cage effect? Is the aluminum charged when playing? I know all the electronics are grounded to it, and the bridge, but I don't understand the purpose of that, care to elaborate? Don't mix alcohol and water-based dyes - Got it. Are the shots just concentrate versions of the "stunning stain", so that they can be mixed with water or alcohol? Thanks bizman.

Thanks a lot for your help, drak. Are there any vendors you'd recommend for dyes? or matte black hardware? I need to delve into what to do after staining. The types of coats applied after that seem varied from luthier to luthier. Wouldn't I "seal" the wood after staining? Does that have the same effect as "wood filling" (the grain)?

As soon as my soldering iron arrives I'll disassemble my electronics and begin to strip the finish off with the heat gun. This is one of my favorite guitars so I'm dedicated to refinishing it for sure. I will try a purple to blue blend on my scrap mahogany to decide whether a fade is what I want. I think it depends on the colors. I dig that turquoise one you found but I'm aiming for more royal blue, actually similar to the original Jet Blue. I like the Angelus Blue, but it's alcohol based and it seems alcohol is quick-drying, harder to work with as a beginner. I may move for the Crimson water-based stains for a more user-friendly experience. Then again, these aren't expensive dyes and I may try both on scrap wood to see what I can produce.