federaldepot

Hi AlexVDL,

To some up my POV. String vibration and the design of a bridge has more to do with mechanical eng. than the tone finish debate which is a cosmetic issue

John

DUH!!

It was just a comparison, wasn't talking about cosmetics at all.

A wraparound transfers the vibration thru 2 studs, as a TOM uses either 2 studs or 2 pins directlu into the wood plus 2 studs from the tailpiece. You could say the one or the other is better, but that's just a matter of taste. You can go mechanical enginerring on the issue, but still it comes to personal taste and how you experience the sound. I personally like it if I have a bit bass in my tone, and I like the extra twang and attack which goes with 2 stud bridge constructions like wraparounds.

Also I notice a much different sound in the gutiars as the TOM allows a greater degree of string vibration becuase of its design. Ive always felt that some of the string vibration was sacraficed by the thickness of the wraparound givingit less treble and mid and more bass

As long as you don't give any hard facts and calculations, I see this just as your own opinion, so comparable to a tone finish debate.... like I tried to say earlier.

Anyways, I don't think there are TOMs with the same stud spacing as a wraparound bridge. So my best bet is like others said, just glue in a mahogany dowel with the grain running in the same direction as the bodies grain.

But one thing though, the intonation line compared to the lining of the studs on a PRS wraparound is not the same as a TOM. If you'd find a TOM that fits in the original holes, you'd get a problem with your intonation because the saddles won't go foreward enough.

Better wrap this up as this is turning into a personal debate instead of a topic of how to do wraparound to TOM conversions

A big thanks to

verhoevenc

rhoads56

crafty

Ben

SoundAt11

for all the info and help. I've ordered my dowels and hardware and when that shows off to the drill press my guitars go!

Thanks guys

John

Im looking for a tunomatic bridge with that measures 9 inches in length from the left post end to the right one

Good luck with that, do you perhaps mean 9cm?

Hi Setch,

No its 9 inches here in the and I already knew it was a long shot buy sometimes somebody might know something you dont

John

Ive already got the mounting plugs out of the guitars. Time to mail order some wood dowels and the hardware!

John

Why would you want to order the dowels before you find out if you need them?

Measure the holes for the mounting posts, then head over to Stew-Mac and you can likely find a tun-o-matic with the same sized mounting holes unless you're just trying to make this more difficult for yourself or those of us trying to offer suggestions.

Also, drilling into dowels is very difficult, as you're drilling directly agains the grain, which is very hard. I'd suggest finding a little block of Mahogany and hand cutting your own dowels with the woodgrain running across them. They would be much easier to drill into.

You'll want a drill press for drilling those new stop tailpiece holes to.

See why we're suggesting a better wraparound, just bolt it on and be done, no waste of time and possibly screwing up a nice guitar.

Hi SoundAt11,

A heavy duty drill press is in my possession. It'll bore through 2 inches of metal with ease so I dont think the wood grain will stop it much. Also their is an alternative to te dowels which is wood plugs.

Im looking for a tunomatic bridge with that measures 9 inches in length from the left post end to the right one. So far I cant seem to find anything that is a TOM but the same width as a stoptail

Any suggestions?

John

I just don't see the difference between this tonepros PRS bridge and a TOM. This is a direct replaceable bridge and it acts the same as a TOM. What is exactly your problem?

they feel different when playing (fretting).

They feel different when you lean on them and palm mute

they look different

Well I be damned.. they look different ...DUH

If he stated that he didn't liked the looks I would have never gave this option!

The way he wrote his first sentence it looked like he said a wraparound couldn't act as a TOM, so I showed one that does

I can understand the difference in feel when palm muting, but what do you mean with difference in feel when playing (fretting)??

EDIT: BTW federaldepot, the bass doesn't come from the wraparound, it comes from your guitar. The reason that a TOM sounds less bassy is that it probably kills your guitar's tone But like GregP said, it is most likely just voodoo talking, like nitro on a solid body sounds better than poly

Hi AlexVDL,

To some up my POV. String vibration and the design of a bridge has more to do with mechanical eng. than the tone finish debate which is a cosmetic issue

John

I just don't see the difference between this tonepros PRS bridge and a TOM. This is a direct replaceable bridge and it acts the same as a TOM. What is exactly your problem?

they feel different when playing (fretting).

They feel different when you lean on them and palm mute

they look different

Hi rhoads56,

You see things the way I do.

I notice a much different feel when playing a TON vs a wraparound. Also I notice a much different sound in the gutiars as the TOM allows a greater degree of string vibration becuase of its design. Ive always felt that some of the string vibration was sacraficed by the thickness of the wraparound givingit less treble and mid and more bass

Ive already got the mounting plugs out of the guitars. Time to mail order some wood dowels and the hardware!

John

Hipshot baby-grand bridge?

Its basically a TOM with the tailpiece attatched to the bridge

Hi Ben

I cant do that kind of space age hardware

The tried and true for me

John

I think the people advocating the intonatable wraparound are on the right track. It's an easier, reversible, and equally functional conversion. There are many great adjustable wraparound on the market - pigtail, Gotoh 510, mann made, tonepros, badass - all are really good quality. If you want to try it first, there are also some pretty decent inexpensive clones of the baddass which are widely avaialble. I'd strongly consider trying one of those before performing an irreversible modification.

Hi Setch,

Been there and done that as far as the intonatable wraparound. Pigtail, Badass and Tonepros (Tonepros and pigtail turned out to be the same thing basically)

No, I cant stand it any longer. The intonatable wraparound and I are a love affair gone really bad

Thanks!

John

I'm with perry on this one. Buy a good wraparound, some locking studs, and your set

Hi Godin SD,

Man I cant do it. The wraparound bridge and I are a love affair gone really bad

Thanks!

John

Most of us are luthier's. And if that was an attempted jab at me for my response.... whatever.

ummm.... ok....

i think the original poster meant "are there any pro's here?"

rhoads56,

your definately on the same page as I

John

Most of us are luthier's. And if that was an attempted jab at me for my response.... whatever.

As for doing it to SEs you shoulda said so earlier. I have no issue with that.

I'd recommend filling with a dowel of matching size, glued in. Then re-drill for the side that you want (you WILL however see the dowel a bit though). If the studs touch the edge but don't fit really tight, then just fill the hole with titebond, push in the stud. Let it dry (titebond doesn't stick to metal!). Then pull out the stud and you have a perfect glove fit for the stud. However that only works if there's a TINY diff. in studd size...

Chris

PS: to find out how to get the bushings out, click on my name and search through my threads I started for the one where I did a tutorial on a bushing puller made at ace-hardware.

Hi Chris

Thanks for that info. Based on my measurements and a rough diagram there will be .25 inches of the dowel remaining on either right side of the post holes. I can definately live with that or just use a dab of model airplane paint to touch that area up so it isnt so obvious. My plan is a well playing gutiar with just a very minor color touchup on the stud ends. No need for anything extravagent.

As for the comment of the luthiers being a jab at you I ride straight and speak the truth. Innuendo is something I have no use for. It was just a simple question in response to a simple anwer

I'll hunt for that the bushing puller thread

Thanks again

John

You're going to destroy THREE PRS guitars?!?!!

Chris

3 PRS SE guitars.

The Korean models, and no I plan to be able to play the guitars after the mods are done so destroying them isn't an option

Any luthiers here on the board?

there are only a few

tonepro offer a direct replacement bridge that gives you the benefits of adjustable intonation, whilst matching the stud spacing of your guitar. They are reasonably pricey, but cheaper than paying a luthier to convert to tunomatic etc.

However, the PRS SE's can easily be converted to tunomatic specs, depending on how well you want the old stud holes filled and repaired.

Hi rhoads56,

Thanks for the info

Can you tell me anything about filling in the old stud holes?

How do I extract the metal bushing screw mounts that are in the holes?

What kind of material(s) is best to use as a filler?

Thanks again!

You're going to destroy THREE PRS guitars?!?!!

Chris

3 PRS SE guitars.

The Korean models, and no I plan to be able to play the guitars after the mods are done so destroying them isn't an option

Any luthiers here on the board?

I have reached the end of my days in dealing with the wraparound bridge. It will never live up to the standards that I have come to expect from the Gibson tunomatic bridge

I want to convert 3 of my guitars from wraparound to tunomatic bridges

I measured the difference at the wraparound posts and it appears to be .5 inches larger that the standard tunomatic post length and exactly the same length as the stoptail posts

Are there any aftermarket tunomatic bridges that are the same width at the studs as the stoptail studs?

I know Ill have to drill and mount a 2nd set of holes for the new stoptail

Are there any tutotials on this?

What are my options? Im trying to avoid doing a retop and hoping for some color touchup instead

Thanks !

Im mean whats the deal with this nitro? They make it out like its the holy grail of guitar finish tone

It's a common finish on many 'holy grail' guitars (although many old Martins have Shellac finishes, I believe), and mojo, marketing and sloppy thinking has lead to many people claiming it has qausi-mystic properties. I'm firmly in the 'properly applied thin film finish is all that matters' camp.

Hi Mattia,

Thanks for the info. It saved, me time money and trouble from getting sucked into another goofy marketing scam

John

If you want to improve the tone of your guitar get a bone nut and saddle and have it professionaly setup.

Hi to all on the board

I just bought a Washburn WD18SW solid wood mahogany acoustic in a satin finsh.

I want to apply a spray on Nitrocellulose finish

Can I just put the nitro over the satin finish? Or will I need to do something else?

I checked the tutorials and did a search but did not turn anything up for satin to Nitrocellulose finish

Any help is appreciated! John

Hi John.

First question I have to ask is - why??? If you just want to get gloss finish you could do it, but regardless of which type of catalyzed poly Washburn used, the only way to get nitro to stick is to spray a couple of coats of spirit based shellac. This will stick to anything, and nitro will bite into the shellac. I'm not sure, however, that the nitro solvents won't have an effect on the base finish. The other thing is that the new gloss coats won't be as if the entire finish were nitro clear. The base finish's satin is made possible by a flattening agent, which any sprayable coating can contain. Once that's gone down onto the wood, any clearcoats over the top will still appear somewhat 'cloudy'. If it were of utmost importance to have a nitro finish, it'd be better to RE-finish in nitro; ie: strip to bare wood and spray all over.

Hi Jack

Well my reason is that Im reading about how nitro finished guitars improve in tone when as the get older. I figured since I got the box for cheap I could just refnish it in nitro for cheap too.

Is there much of a difference between an satin finished guitar and a nitro finished? Other than this tone aging improving stuff Im reading about?

When you say strip down to the bare wood would i have to sand off the brown finish as well? or would I take off enough to get the satin off?

Thanks for your info! John

I also want to know why- it looks nice as it is in the photo IMHO

Hi Ben

I've been reading about how nitro finished guitars sound better as they age and figured I try to nitro the Washburn for cheap. Do you know anything about this nitro aging/tone improving stuff?

John

Hi to all on the board

I just bought a Washburn WD18SW solid wood mahogany acoustic in a satin finsh.

I want to apply a spray on Nitrocellulose finish

Can I just put the nitro over the satin finish? Or will I need to do something else?

I checked the tutorials and did a search but did not turn anything up for satin to Nitrocellulose finish

Any help is appreciated! John

Hi to all on the board

I just bought a Washburn WD18SW solid wood mahogany acoustic in a satin finsh.

I want to apply a spray on Nitrocellulose finish

Can I just put the nitro over the satin finish? Or will I need to do something else?

I checked the tutorials and did a search but did not turn anything up for satin to Nitrocellulose finish

Any help is appreciated! John

( If I missed this) that bridge is a quadmatic bridge made by BC Rich.

if you want one, here...

http://cgi.ebay.com/BC-Rich-Bridge-Vintage...1QQcmdZViewItem

Hi

Many thanks for that information. That solves my question. Thanks!

You've repeated the statement, but not actually clarified why you beleive it.

I don't believe the route the strings take after they've gone over the saddles (or past the nut for that matter) will make any measureable difference to the clarity of the guitar, because this portion of the string doesn't generate the sound when you pluck a the guitar. I can't see *anything* to suggest that design is superior to a standard wraparound.

If you like how it looks and feels, go nuts, but don't expect it to improve the sound one iota.

Sorry but I think Ive already clarified why I want to get a bridge of this design. Strings straight at the beginning base may produce better resonanace than strings bent at the base. Again, just my opinion. It will be 10 days before I can order the guitar to get a better look at it. I called BC Rich tech about the part but wont get a reply until Wed

Happy Independance day to all the USA posters!

Well, you could equally well ask why they shouldn't. I certainly wouldn't be changing out the bridges on instruments on a theory about the strings ringing clearer if they're not bent. It's not like they aren't plenty bent at the machine head any way....

Is there actually a problem you're trying to solve, or is it just someything you'd like to do?

A little bit of both actually. The way I'm seeing it the majority of the string volume rings at the base of the guitar where the bridge is, not at the headstock where the tuning pegs are.

The strings going in at a straight angle at the base of the bridge in my theory should resonate better than strings that are bent at a u angle This is just my 2 cents

Oh, I definitely see what you mean... but I was just thinking it could've been a Badass-style wraparound (not a true Leo Quan) strung up incorrectly. But pigtails and tonepros don't seem to do that, either.

Could be proprietary.

Gee whiz I hope its not proprietary. Ive got a Tokai, Dillion and PRS SE with fixed bridges that I would love to change out for this one. I would think that having your strings going out straight would make them ring true and clear instead of bending them at a U angle

Ill have to buy this guitar on my next paycheck and get a good look at it. I could never figure out why the strings had to wraparound on the Badass bridge in the first place

Are you absolutely sure it's not a Badass-style bridge that's been strung up improperly?

[edit: I've had a look, and you might be right after all... although my theory MIGHT still hold true, none of the wraparounds I've seen in a quick search could be strung up incorrectly in the way pictured here.]

Greg

Yeah Its not a badass. Ive got a chrome one and it does not look like that

If you look closly at the bottom end of the bridge youll see the strings feeding straight through. To me this is an intelligent balance between the stopbar/tunomatic bridge combo.

If you look closely in the picture you can see that the bridge is different then the wraparound styles

The strings go throught the stoptail, do not wraparound and then rest of the tunomatic portion of the bridge

Does anyone know who makes this combo tailpeice/bridge that does not warparound?

Any help is welcome!

warmoth charges $220 for a "black-red-yellow" burst, similar to what what you want. if you want a more pick-shaped burst, you'd have to contact them (they claim that that type of extra usually costs about $50, though it may be more). there's a $30 upcharge for working around binding.

Warmoth doesn't do re-finishing. They only paint their own stuff.

I wouldn't recommend this for a DIY project if you've never done a re-finish before. If it's a thin veneer it can easily be sanded through, or destroyed by chemical strippers.

This model goes for about $500, correct? I could see a proper professional re-finish easily costing you $300 - $400. Way more if you want the fingerboard replaced and inlay work added. Not worth it, IMO.

It could be a DIY, but you'll need a lot of education on finishing, and practicing on guitars you don't mind ruining. I suspect you wouldn't want to ruin this one.

Mike

Hi Mike,

I ebayed mine for $300.

Ok If I go the Pro route can you tell me where i can look for a refinisher for Vintage Sunburst? Ive tried searching on the net but have not had much luck finding one

Thanks for the info

John

How hard would it be to replace the board with ebony, put new frets, bind the board and place some dot or small cross inlays on it? Can I DIY this? How much am I looking at for parts and tools?

For a DIY Project, you can buy a preslotted, pre-radiused board, and go from there.

If you're buying from StewMac, costs (excluding tools you may need):

Ebony Board (looks like a PRS clone, so 25" scale, 12" radius) : $30

Cream Plastic Binding (Or you could use flame maple for more class) : $5

Black Side Dot Material: $1

12 1/4" Gold MOP Dots (will do 24 frets): $6

Fretwire: $8

But when you factor in tools, it'll be more expensive, you'll need fret nippers, a radius sanding block, crowning files and more.

The question is, have you done anything like this before? And if not, how attached are you to this Tokai guitar? It looks pretty nice to me. Are you willing to run the risk of spoiling it? That's not meant as a 'don't bother', more just to make sure you think it through. Only you can answer the question of whether you can DIY this.

Hi

Im not really attached to it. I guess im into a guitar modding phase now.

Would I be looking at about $50 in parts and about $100 in other tools?

Would it be cheaper to let a pro do it?

Thanks for the info

John

question 1: are you sure that's just veneer (paper-thin, would have to be formed to the carve) and not a carved laminate (solid wood) top?

if you're unsure, post pics of the edges so we can see.

advice:

if it's a carved top (not veneer) and you remove the paint yourself, warmoth charges $220 for a "black-red-yellow" burst, similar to what what you want. if you want a more pick-shaped burst, you'd have to contact them (they claim that that type of extra usually costs about $50, though it may be more). there's a $30 upcharge for working around binding.

I'd saw to let the pros do this one, as a burst is not (to my knowledge) an easy finish, and I think it's quite a bit different from model painting.

just IMHO

Hi

It is a carved veneer top. Are you sure Warmoth can do the finish?

On the website it says "We only offer finishing services for the parts that we build here"

Have they changed their policy or can recommend someone else?

Thanks for the info

John