DaveC

When I read that back, it sounded confusing, so I'll try some (poor) ascii art showing exaggerated high frets. Picture the straight edge contacting frets at the two x's below and extending on. The 2 high frets are shown with h below them. The straight edge will miss the leftmost one in the diagram. x | | x _|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_|_ h h[/codebox] Thanks Bluesy. I get it. So I think you are agreeing with me that those Fret Rocker gauges might be OK as a guide if you know what fret to level, otherwise not the best approach. As you mentioned, leveling all frets makes sense, but then you are going to have some frets that are much wider in crown (the ones that have the most crown removed) as oppsoed to those that just get lightly taken down (the low frets). Even with recrowning, the radius would have to be different? Man..maybe I am over analyzing this?

Guess I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, so excuse the question. I blame it on the 60's, and some of the 70's too. I've used small straight edges before to do the same thing, but never trusted that I understood the difference between finding a high fret with the rocking vs. a low fret? And so this question. Say you are bridging the first three frets with the tool and there is no rocking. Unless you check the middle fret with a feeler gauge (which I have never see shown on the videos), how do you know that the middle fret isn't LOWER than the two end frets? If the two end frets are level, no rocking would occur. Then you move up one fret. Now the "low" fret is on one end. If the other two frets are level wouldn't the tool still rock some since one end fret is lower than the other two? And if you start leveling based on measuring three frets at a time, seems to me you will never get all frets equally level? Seems to me that unless you straighten the neck, color the tops of all frets, and then take a 18" straight edge across the entire fret board and look at the marks left by the straightedge, you really won't know which frets are really the high ones and which are really the low ones? Since "real" luthiers (I am not) use these tools they must work...but I just don't get how you can be certain you have a high middle fret and not a low end fret? What am I missing?

Thanks guys, a small "fret rocker" SE is a lot less money to buy than one of those notched jobs....and I already have a small SE that works for that purpose.

What I have read all says to get the fretboard flat and straight (no relief) before leveling the frets which makes sense, but nothing I have read details HOW to get the neck/board flat. Basically, what I don't understand is this, unless you have a notched straightedge that allows it to contact the fretboard and not the frets, I can't understand how you can get the neck straight with a straightedge since the frets are not of even height, which is why I want to do this in the first place. And if the frets are not of equal height I can't understand how you can use a straightedge since the high frets will prevent all frets from touching the bottom of the straightedge equally, which if the frets were level and of equal height would indicate a flat fretboard? Also, when leveling the frets, are you only looking for a little contact at each fret? I am guessing only contact is needed since high frets would need to be brought down further and so would always have a wider cross-section than those that don't...but thought I would ask. Perhaps the crowning file gets them close to the same profile? Many thanks, DaveC

Thanks for the reply. Care to tell us what your standards are?

I've been working on setting up my new MIM Standard Strat, and like most guys on this forum, good isn't good enough. I can't get the strings equally low measured at the 12th fret w/o getting a sight buzz at some strings. Where the buzz shows up differs depending on the string. Most strings are at 3/64" at the 12th fret with low strings slightly higher but under 4/64" and trebble E closer to 2/64". So, not bad but I would like to get them all consistent and as low as possible. Probably something between 2/64 & 3/64" on the trebble side and 3/64" or slightly higher with the low strings. I have a few questions about fret leveling, but first a little info. NUT HEIGHT I've checked the string height at the nut holding down between the 2nd & 3rd frets, and measuring with a feeler guage at the first fret. The gap appears to vary between .005" to around .007". Not certain how much precision iIshould be looking for? None are below .005 which seems to be the lower end on what is acceptable, and none are higher than .007". Is this "good enough"? If not, should they all be as close to .005" as possible? TRUSS In tune using a straightedge, the gap between the straightedge and the 7th fret is .008". INTONATION Spot on. FRET LEVELING QUESTIONS 1) I am confused by what I have read. Am I trying to level all frets to the plane of the strings (which makes the most sense to me) or the plane of a "flat" fretboard? Most posts talk about adjusting the truss to flatten the fretboard? I don't get it? First, there is no way you are going to get a piece of wood with a truss in it really flat! I would expect several thousandths variation across the entire length? 2) If you put a straightedge across the frets which are also not even in height, again, the measurement will be different at different frets assuming the use of a feeler gauge between the straightedge and the frets? 3) If the idea is to be able to have lower string height , then it seems to me that you would ideally want to level the frets with the truss rod properly adjusted so the the top of the frets are leveled to the plane of the strings as opposed to the fretboard since we know we want some relief in the fretboard which means there will be some bow in it? Even if you were able to straighten the neck perfectly and then leveled the frets to one another, when you put strings back on and adjusted the truss for proper relief the frets would no longer be level with the stings across the length of the fretboard since there is bow in the neck. What I am not understanding here?

On the guitars I have, as well as the many I have seen and played, I have always wondered why the string height above the fretboard is always higher toward the body end of the fretboard, and lowest toward the nut? I like a low action, and even with the truss adjusted for a flat fret board and the bridge and saddles lowered just above buzzing, or on most every acoustic I have seen, the neck is set so instead of an even string height across the entire fretboard, the strings are at a slight angle (sometimes more than slight) being lower at the nut and higher near the bridge? Question? Is this convention or is there some technical reason? Can a guitar be built with a consistently low string height across the entire fretboard or would that be a poor design for some reason? Before I can get my strings as low as i would like near the bridge I always get string buzz at the lowest frets and the only way to change that would be to have the first couple of frets lower that the rest which seems like a bad idea! Thanks for the explanation, DaveC

Thanks for the kind words. Seth asked:Did you just paint with black to get the gloss even over the repaired area, or did you have to do anything to restore the texture, like using a textured paint? A: Tried to determine what was used from Ovation repair center's but got no where. Contacted Ovation and offered to buy, but they said no. Found a product called Zolatone that looked to be the right "splatter" product, but could only buy a quart or larger. Sooo, I just experimented with several Automotive restoration paints I had (mostly epoxy based), used the mold, a small brush and a toothbrush to reproduce the finish splatter as well as holding the aerosol cans a foot or two away from the surface which created splatter, and I just got lucky in the way it came out. fishgiven posted: For future reference Ovation/Hamer has an outstanding Customer Service. A: I agree, but unfortunately, they wouldn't sell me or tell me the product to use to recreate the finish, which is understandable, but not great service? Automotive companies have no problem selling the paint and parts, but I guess this industry is different. I did contact them to see how much for them to do the repair. Since I only paid $200 for the guitar, I could not see my way to paying the $150 estimate (not including shipping). I think is was a fair estimate, but I always assumed I would be a armchair luthier on this one in order to justify buying it in the first place. (it was fun!) Great forum..great people. Thx

Thanks. Nothing a new coat of paint won't cure! Honestly, thanks to the guys here, the repair is indistinguishable. Since the hole was fixed, I adjusted the truss rod, polished the frets, and made a compensated saddle out of bone! It plays awesome and intonantion with my strobe tuner is within 1 cent across the strings. After adjusting the truss rod with the stock saddle in place, intonantion was 6-9 cents off at low E, and off fairly badly on several other strings. I also purchased some bone blanks to replace the nut, but since all is good the way it is, I think I will just enjoy it for a while the way it is.

Thank you all for the pointers. Just the type of information I was looking for!

Thanks everyone. If the guitar was built correctly ...sound as though the nut should come off w/o too much effort or worry. As far as the bone replacement...I am planning to make one either from stock I have from knife handle projects or I will just buy some one of the blanks offered. For the saddle I just plan to copy the dimensions of the one that is there now, unless I find some information on how to alter it to adjust for intonantion. I have seen some of the Tusq type synthetic saddles that seem to have some type of shelf ot flat area across a couple strings, but I really don't understand the purpose or why just the two strings? As far as the nut, is there a technique or process I can follow to properly slot it or adjust it for intonation? W/O any other information, like the saddle, I was just planning to get out the calipers and and make as close a copy of what is there now as I can.

Thanks to all of you..and especially "thegarehanman", I forged ahead and completed this repair. I am still a neophyte to this forum on how to use it, so I am hoping these links to the pictures of my repair process work! I know this type or repair is not anything most of you will ever need to do, but if nothing else, it may be fun to see what I did. 1) Picture of the damaged and elongated hole for the output jack on this Ovation Acoustic/Electric composite body 2) Two part components you mix together like silly puddy that cure into a rubber mold. I used this to mold against the outside of the guitar body in an undamaged area so when cured, I could tape over the damaged area since the epoxy resin and glass cloth repair would be made from inside the body. Besides providing the proper shape and a seal for the resin over the hole, it also helped pick up the texture of the finish that was then imprinted onto the cured resin. 3) Molding to the guitar body. 4) Epoxy Resin components and black colorant for the resin. With the mold in place, I first brushed some resin into the hole area from the inside of the guitar to make certain the texture of the mold would be picked up, and the repair would be even with the exterior of the guitar. Even though I used a "thicker" resin, if I had this step to do over I would have used a resin thickener to avoid a small run from the resin I got since the guitar needed to be in positions where gravity worked against me when doing the repair. I then used woven glass cloth you can buy at any hardware or homecenter. Cut it into circles that would cover the hole and would extend another 3/4 inch around it. Then used an acid brush to dab the mixed and blackend resin onto the cloth and applied from the inside on the guitar over the hole. Used four layers, dabbing extra resin into the hole area between layers. 5) The repair after curing (48hrs) and the mold removed. Since I didn't use a thickener, a thin layer of resin migrated between the mold and the body around 1/4" in some places. No big deal, but needed to sand it flush with sand paper which sanded away a bit of the texture in the resin by the mold. 6) Experimented with different paints to duplicate the "splatter" finish and color. 7) Paint complete and new hole drilled. 8) Finished repair. Really undetectable from the outside, and very strong. Thankfully this model Ovation has a large removable port cover on the back that made access to the inside area easy. Thanks again to "thegarehanman". He appears to do composite repairs in his daily life although not on guitars, and gave me some great advice, hints and tips! DaveC

I am thinking of upgrading the plastic saddle and nut on my guitar to bone. No reason..except I want to. What I need to know, is what approach and tools to use to remove the existing nut so I don't damage the guitar, and any advice on attaching and slotting the bone replacement nut. Also, if I do replace the nut, it seems to be a time to possibly adjust intonation as well. I have found very little on adjusting intonantion on an acoustic guitar. Any chance I can get pointed to a good explanation of the process and approach? Thanks

I have an older Ibanez and ended up at this Ibanez Collectors forum. If you want to know more...these guys can tell you anything you may want to know! [post=http://www.ibanezcollectors.com/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi]Ibanez Collector Club