Setch

You can recess a tunamatic, but you need to ensure you'll have enough break angle, and you'll also not be able to reach the intonation adjustment screws. If you have a bridge with thumb wheels you can also forget about adjusting the height

Calculating neck angle is not hard. I'd recommend you beg, steal (no!) or borrow a copy of 'Build your own Electric guitar' by Melvyn Hiscock, which covers the issue in clear concise terms. This isn't my answer to every question... honest!

Sitka spruce is a common wood for accoustic guitar soundboards, but I would consider it pretty soft to use for an electric guitar top. On the otherhand, it is also used for archtop guitars, on which the LP is based, so I suppose stranger things could happen...

I wold expect a sitka top to be very mellow compared to maple, though this is pure speculation, not based on any actual experience.

Let us know if you find anyhting more out, I for one would be interested.

Ali, I think if you are serious about building a guitar you should really get your hands on a copy of Melvyn Hiscock's 'Build your own Electric Guitar'. If money is tight, you can probably order a copy form your local library.

Whilst the people on this forum are a great resource, and always happy to help, the majority of your question are addressed in clear concise detail in the book, and you wouldn't have to wait for a reply every time a question comes up.

Brian, is it OK to post a link to Amazon here? Don't want to tread on any toes...

notice i did say in my post about it that it was theoretical and that i did not agree with it. and what he says on page 15 is what i paraphrased.almost to the word."the gibson les paul has a slightly shorter scale length as the published measurement refers to the string length,which is slightly longer than the scale lengthsince the bridge is moved away from the nut by a small amount to allow for the stretch of the string when it is fretted.this is known as compensation....."there you go.please direct your future disagreements on this issue to melvyn hiscock.

I have no dissagreements with Mr.Hiscock, and the paragraph you posted is perfectly correct. Your paragraph varied from his in one important aspect - you described the gibson scale length as being 24 3/4. The whole purpose of the Mr.Hiscock's paragraph is too explain that 24 3/4 IS NOT the Gibson scale length, but is infact it's string length.

I understood your original post to say that adding comensation to scale length was theoretical, and nonsensical, which it clearly isn't. I now think that what you were saying is that you disagree with Gibson describing their instruments as having a 24 3/4 scale - if this is the case I entirely agree!

However, if you disagree with this confusing practice, why did you yourself describe Gibsons as having a 24 3/4 inch scale in that very post!!

I hope I haven't come across as being faecitious or rude, I was simply trying to prevent any missunderstanding, so please accept my apologies if I caused any offence.

Best wishes,

-Setch.

Guys, there is no difference in the type of compensation on a Gibson style instrument, a Fender style, or an accoustic. All compensation is is the lengthening of a guitar string past it's theoretical scale length to take into account the affect of fretting a note.

Brian - Everytime you build an instrument, you have to 'do the compensated scale thing' otherwise it wouldn't play in tune!

Wes - All page 15 says (as far as I can see) is that Gibson's scale length is often quoted as 24 3/4, but that figure is incorrect. If you read the fretting table in the back of the book you'll see it's actually 24 9/16. All Melvyn is pointing out is that the figures given for scale length by Fender etc are true scale lengths, where as the oft quoted 24 3/4 is an approximation based on the compensated string length. Read page 199 for more information. Peace to you too - I'm not trying to pick a fight, just correct a missapprehension.

In brief, most instruments will need between between 0 and 1/8 compenssation on the treble side, and between 1/8 and 1/4 on the bass side. How this compensation is achieved depends on the bridge. An accostic needs the cempensation permenently set by angling the saddle. A Gibson needs it's bridge angled to allow the compensation to be set within it's limited adjustement range, and a Fender can be compensated entirely with adjustable saddles since it has a greater range of adjustment. Despite these differences you are doing exactly the same thing in every case.

p.s - Please don't raise the Buzz Feiten issue, that's way beyond my meagre brain. Besides, we all no buzz is bad on guitars, right?

just to add clarity keep in mind that gibson places their bridges at 24 5/8" on a 24 3/4" scale guitar.it is called compensation because it compensates theoretically for the extra stretching of a string that occurs when you fret it.(fretting pulls the string down to the fretboard.)most guitar companies don't do this though.it seems nonsensical to me though because when you intonate you place the saddle at the proper distance anyway so i don't see the validity of it.

When you intonate a guitar, you are setting the compenastion. The only reason Gibson angle the bridge is because of the limited adjustment range you get from a tunamatic - Without the angle you couldn't get enough compensation, and the guitar wouldn't intonate . If you measure the saddle position on any guitar, be it a Gibson, a Fender or a Martin, you'll find the distance from 12th fret to bridge is slightly longer than the 12th fret to nut, with more compensation on the bass side.

I'd remove material from the neck, until you have a smooth flat surface to glue to. Then, I'd prepare a piece of maple, and scarf it onto the onto the break. I'd remove material from the head too, creating another flat glueing face, and join this to the neck.

With neck repairs it's all or nothing - if you have all the pieces of even a pretty savage break, you can inject plenty of wood glue, clamp carefully, and it should be fine. However, lose even a fairly minor piece and you'll have to either scarf in a patch, or a whole new headstock.

See here for some helpfull pics and info...

New Head

Scarfed Repair

These are fairly tricky repairs to undertake if you've little or no woodworking experience, so you may want to try a local repair guy. If his quote is more than you can afford, what do you have to lose?

-Setch.

Sorry, I can't really be more specific - Just a hair over

Seriously, I've often tried to pin down an exact measurement from builders & techs etc, but they've always said 'just a tiny bit' past the end of the theoretical scale length. I think this is because neck pitch and other variables affect the actual string length, so people are wary of specifying an exact distance, lest it be wrong for a specific instrument.

IMO, the best solution is to fit the stop tail, then slide the tunamatic back and forwards under correct string tension until you get it to intonate perfectly. You'll probably have to raise it using small wooden wedges to get an acceptable action. Once it's right, mark that position and drill for the studs.

With fender style bridges you have more room for adjustment, so like Ali says, simply place the bridge so the treble saddle is at the end of the scale length when 90% of the way forward.

Modern day glue    dag nabbit young whipper snappers

Forget modern glue - People have been gluing rosewood and ebony to mahogany and maple for well over 500 years now, with nothin' but good old fashioned hide glue!

The only wood you're liable to have trouble with is something oily like teak or cocobolo - these should be thoroughly wiped with acetone before gluing, otherwise they can cause failed joints due to their natural oils affecting the glue.

Yes. It absolutely matters, assuming you ever want it to play in tune.

Place the bridge so the high e-string saddle is just over twice as far from the nut as the 12th fret is. IE - Nut to 12th fret distance is 12.281, then nut to treble sadle of bridge is 24.562. If you are using a tunamatic the bass side should be offset about an 1/8th of an inch farther back than the treble.

I recently posted This photo essay to guitar.com - I think it's quite relevant to what you're considering. The cocktails stick technique would definately come in handy if you do decide to cap your guitar.

i am with you but i actually meant a dovetail running the length of the body for strictly mechanical purposes.i just have seen some dropped guitars which were broken at the glue joint and am looking to avoid that.but i think you could get around the short grain problem and dovetail it as you and scott are talking about by running the grain crossways.instead of the length of the guitar run the grain from the upper horn sloped down about where the jack is.see what i mean?might make for an interesting look also.

Hmmm. I think you'd still have grain trouble if you ran the dovetail joint at less than 45 degrees off the grain direction. Hope that line makes sense... It would certainly look pretty cool, but I doubt even with the grain angled it would add much strength. If you've seen a guitar break along the glue join I would attribute that to a poor joint, if the joint was executed correctly it should be stringer than the original wood. For once an ad slogan is actually true!

and of course you are right about the joint.what i meant to say was not to sand it finer than about 220 if he didn't have a joiner or planer.i buy all my wood with one edge already planed so i don't have to mess with it.

Cool. I buy most of my wood thicknessed but unplaned, so I have to prepare it. I usually run timber through my DIY router table to square and straighten edges, then sand with 80 grit paper on a slab of plate glass to get then dead flat. Finally, I scrape with a cabinet scraper or plane iron to remove the sanding 'fuzz'.

  i have found the correct clamping pressure to be right at the point where the two pieces of wood almost meet.i clean up the glue that is forced out and clamp until i see a fine line of yellow,about 1/64" thick.then when the glue dries it is clear and you cannot see it at all.it takes me about 10 minutes to clamp a piece where i am happy with it.then i ussually check it every 2 minutes or so to make sure it doesn't walk.but that's just me being paranoid

but you sound like you have more experience in this area than me.how about a walk through of your procedure?

Not that much experience - I'm building guitar number 3 at present

After the procedure above, I find that most of my neck laminates, or body joints will lie together so the line is virtually invisible using just finger pressure. I also hold then upto the sun to ensure they are light tight, no light should be visible through a good joint. If they fit that well dry, I lay them together, drill a 2mm hole in scrap at each end, then glue them up using a cocktail stock through the hole to prevent them slipping around like a burger with too much mayo!

I whack a whole load of clamps along the length, but only apply enough pressure to get squeeze out along the length of the joint. I don't have a pic of the neck clamped up, but here's one of the body.

Hi guys, my first post!!!

Anyway, the body's really thin (even though it's one lovely piece of mahogany)... I guess it's about an inch and a quarter.... would it be easy for me to attach another piece (probably on the back lol) so I can stick a Floyd-licenced in there? I know I'll need to fill in the flat-mount routing, but that's no big deal....

What kind of wood should I go for?

Upto you - I'd opt for 1/4 inch maple on the front, stain it or spray it with tinted laquer and mask/scrape faux binding. It's a mostly cosmetic descision. If you fancy going straightforward and utilitarian use more mahogany, for a bit more glitz any 1/4 - 1/2 inch fancy wood top would be fine.

What kind of glue should I use?

For a beginner, Titebond original. Stay away from titebond II, and liquid hide glue. You can dilute a bit to help it flow out, but I use it uncut to glue on tops. I know Brian recommends Titebond II, and I respect his experience, but I've heard 1 too many horror stories about it not ever setting hard, in specifically this type of application. It's only advantage over regular titebond is it's water resistance, and you don't plan on paddling a canoe with this guitar...right?

How many clamps? etc etc

How many ya' got? Use them all, and try to apply pressure to the centre too - either with a long reach clamp, or a very heavy object. Don't forget to protect the wood from the clamps, or you'll mark it with nasty dents.

Good luck!

yeah scott's right if you clamp it tightly you will not see a line.if you sand it though make sure to leave it rough so the glue will stick.i have often wondered about the possibilities of using dovetail joints for laminates.

1. Don't clamp too tight. You risk forcing all the glue out of the joint and creating a starved joint. The role of clamps is to hold the joint whilst the glue dries, not to force a poorly fitted joint to close. If you want invisible glue joints, the only answer is getting both components totally flat - if you joined surfaces which were still only rough planed a visible glue line is inevitable. I'm pretty sure that your joint will hold fine, so if you can find a cosmetic solution go ahead and use the neck as it is.

2. Don't leave the surfaces to be joined rough - contrary to what most people believe the best glue joint with wood is created by joining totally smooth surfaces together - ie planed or scraped surfaces hold best. The common exception to this is when using epoxy, or joining disimilar materials - ie glueing plastic binding, in these cases raising a little 'tooth' helps. I'm sure I'll get a few people raising eyebrows at this, but it is accepted as fact by most experienced builders and woodworkers.

3. Dovetails for laminates would look amazing - I'm totally with you there. However, they would be totally hopeless mechanically, since the grain direction would mean there was short grain at the base of every dovetail, making the joint weaker than a standard flat lamination.

Great pic Alex - Thanks! (where did you find it?)

Do you have any idea the relative ages of those two? That top joint is pretty flakey - I'd be ashamed to have anyone see a joint I'd cut with such minimal contact between the tennon and mortice! I wonder if it's one of the dreaded Norlin era...

The bottom one looks very much like what I did - carrying the tennon through into the neck pickup route.

I used it on my Black and Blue Double cut. It is a very forgiving finish to apply, quick drying (I could handle the guitar after 30 -45 mins) and it builds pretty quickly. It buffed out to a very acceptable gloss.

I am not familiar with the humidity problems Brian mentioned, though my black did have a bluey tint, which I had assumed was due to dodgy dye mixing by me. I'll be using the same laquer when finishing my next guitar, which will be clearcoated and shellaced only, so I'll let y'all know how it goes.

Some, but not a great many.

I am in the process of building another similar guitar, you guys can expect a veritable SL of pics...

Here's a pic of the guitar above, after planing the neck angle and routing the pocket, but before the top is carved. (sorry, lousy pic, hope you can see what's going on....)

No, I meant on set necks.

Routing the neck pocket after planing the neck angle, but before carving the top is the accepted practice amoungst most people I know who have built LP style guitars, is the method described by Melvyn Hiscock in his excellent 'Build Your Own Electric Guitar' and is how I did mine - where the technique worked perfectly.

Trust me on this - I've done it, not just seen pics or heard references to it!

I disagree. The neck angle is planed into the guitar top. This creates a flat surface for you to mount you template on, which is angled to match the neck angle. Simply tape or pin your template to the angle area you've planed, and route as normal. When the top is carved the flat area will be flowed into the carve, so it is no longer visable.

how strange!i can't tell if the bridge is off center or if the controls are placed wrong,but something is amiss.

The bridge is off centre, presumably to compensate for an inperfect neck joint. If you look for the bookmatch of the figured top, you can see that the stop tail bar is damn nearly half an inch of centre - not a problem for playability, but definately not ideal, and probably not within what I'd consider an acceptable margin of error. Ensuring that your body centreline and neck centreline match up and are dead straight is one of the fundamentals of guitar construction, getting it that far off shows a lack of attention to detail, and I can't help but worry what else might crop up over time.

That said, I'm sure it's like any budget guitar - you can get a total gem or a real dog. With that in mind I'd be very wary of mail ordering, unless you can exchange one you are unsatisfied with.

Brian, I think he's reffering to whether the neck wood is quatersawn or flatsawn.

When using mahognay for a neck it is advisable to use quarter sawn timber, since this grain orientation makes for the stiffest, most stable neck. This is of particular importance on electric guitars, since they have longer necks, hence more potential to flex. With maple, a flatsawn neck should be fine.

The grain orientation of your body wood is less critical, assuming you are building a solid body.

If you need a diagram illustrating the difference between quarter and flat sawn timber, try a google search, failing that, I have one I can mail to Brian for inclusion here (I can't currently FTP anything to my webspace).

I'd steer away from both the liquid hide glue, and titebond II. They are both prone to creep, and this can be particularly troublesome for gluing neck scarf joints and other joints under constant load. When Franklin altered their original formula titebond to improve it's water resisitance, they negatively affected it's abiltiy to set really hard, and a number of guitar builders have reported trouble with it never really setting at all in the center of joints. The same is true of their liquid hide glue, which I have been repeatedly advised to avoid like the plague. They added urea to impeed it's drying time, so it wouldn't set in the bottle, and this means it never sets really hard, and again, a number of very expereinced luthiers have had trouble with failed glue joints when they have used it.

Titebond Original is the easiest and most reliable all rounder, and unless you plan to use your guitar as a paddle you don't need the water resistance of titebond II. Real hot hide glue is allegedly the best luthiery glue there is, but it requires practice to master, and gives you limited open joint time before gelling.

I'd also check your nut height - a slightly high nut will help get buzz free play, but will always throw the first couple of frets out of whack. Try fretting a note at the third fret, and see how much clearance you have between the string and the first fret. If you have no gap the nut is cut too deep, if you have an obvious gap, it's too high. You really want it so close that you can't see the gap...

You can tell if there is a gap you can't see by tapping the string between the nut and first fret, whilst still fretting it at the third. If you hear a tiny metallic ' tap' when you tap it, theres a gap. If it's actually touching the fret you won't hear anything but your finger striking the fretboard.

It's also no coincidence that you don't usually see the back of the guitar... There's no point playing for fancy figured wood if no one can see it. The common exception is on acoustic flat tops and archtops, where the sound board is usually spruce, so any fancy wood tends to end up on the back.

Front and back caps are usefull if you want to chamber the body, since you can use a bandsaw to remove whole chunks of the body, rather than the messy and wasteful alternative of routing out the chambers.

Whilst I stand by the comments I made above, if you are still keen to persue this, the link below may be helpful. It documents the neck removal and refinishing of a flat top LP special with a broken neck.

Les Paul Special Neck replacement

What ever yuo opt to do, have fun, and goodluck