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Sustainer Ideas


psw

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OK, I've got pictures. Basically, I found that I wasn't orienting the magnets correctly, but now it works a little better.

Ahh...nice pics...

Ok...so I bet you don't have a bypass system and you think you will "get away" with having the pickup deselected with the selector switch...dispite everything about the complexityies of bypassing...

So...try this...completely disconnect the wires of the neck pickup and the mid pickup both hot and eart, even short the coils together (as well) and try the same experiment...work better? I think it might!

Good to see Tim's selection of coils again...I really want to get onto some of this because I think it may be possible to make such a coil that could easily be glued under a single coil cover, the magnets adjusted, and a secret sustainer pickup with performance similar to mine produced.... :D

Back to fashbandit's problems...you are getting there. Obviously your amp is working and the coil looks fine. If you can get a better magnet or a row of magnets (saw some fine ones cheap down the bargian craft shop recently) then you could test it well away from the pickups.

The symptoms you are describing are typical...it may not even be harmoonic mode that produces the fifth above thing...on my guitar the low strings morph to that as a result of the treble bias anyway. By reversing the polarity, you can get strange effects and if your pickups are grounded (even if only connected at one end) their coils will act as an antenna resulting in noise and interferance in the system. Changing the polarity effects this signal in different ways and reversing it may make it unworkable and it works 'ok' the other. That is why I described the "sustain box" that people have seen on my black les paul as a testing device. I took the signal from the output and placed the driver atop one coil of an HB, the results can be heard on the sounds page, but it was not a performance instrument and as I recall, only worked in one mode as a result. The HB pickups and the sheilding of the alternate polarity magnet of the pickup may also have helped with this device. Alas, nothing is truely simple...

Anyway, keep trying...

Speaking of trying, I am reaching a stage in my personal situation that should see things calm down a little in the next few months. I have just been through a property settlement yesterday and experienced some of the darkest days of my life. Things are getting a little strange and all day there has been a strange light to the sky. We are in a terrible drought in Oz and I walked out for a while this afternoon and it finally rained....so I here soaking wet from rain instead of tears and it's something of a relief...just thought I'd share, thanks for the well wishes and keep me in mind as I travel through Life's Journey. Perhaps when all is said and done, I might even travel for a bit, might even be in your neighbourhood someday, so watch out...

pete

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Special post to cheer up psw;

I've managed to construct a 2 mm driver with the neo internal magnets.The cabling is bigger than the driver itself! Has about the same performance as the ceramic magnet, maybe a little less output but negligable. I've only tested with the low E (actually tuned to D) and A strings, but so far it's quite happy in the mid position, even up to 8-10 mm of the pickup without squealing. The distortion and fuzz remains though. I'm starting to think it has more to do with the pickup than the driver as i can get the same fuzz when holding the coils over the pickup, without any magnet or core :D .

I've also constructed a dual side driver (those coreless coils have proven their worth in experimenting) with the neo's and while it does work, output is pretty weak and EMI pretty bad (very bad really). It definately needs more juice than the 'regular'humbucking driver. And as you turn up the juice, EMI gets worse. I'd advise not to go the route of the side driver but to concentrate on the raildriver (not that my tests are conclusive or anything).

pics tonight...

Tim

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I've managed to construct a 2 mm driver with the neo internal magnets.The cabling is bigger than the driver itself! Has about the same performance as the ceramic magnet, maybe a little less output but negligable. I've only tested with the low E (actually tuned to D) and A strings, but so far it's quite happy in the mid position, even up to 8-10 mm of the pickup without squealing.

Cool :D

Thats sounds like a nice development. Is it a dual core or single core ?

The distortion and fuzz remains though. I'm starting to think it has more to do with the pickup than the driver as i can get the same fuzz when holding the coils over the pickup, without any magnet or core :D .

Is that becuase the fuzz is caused by parasitic transformer action ?

Certainly its something I noticed when switching over to the dual core, the squealing problems vanished, but not the fuzz. What circuit are you using?

The way I managed get rid of the fuzz in my system was to ensure that the circuit didn't add any distortion to the signal - basically, the parasitic signal is the same as the desired signal, so it is masked - this reduces fuzz caused by the pickup sensing the driver/wiring/circuit. Unfortunately, it doesn't help when you move the driver close to a pickup - probably because of the transformer effect causing clipping. It's interesting to note that this wouldn't happen if the driver used a coil more like a pickup coil - many times more turns of much finer wire... of course that would need different circuitry...

I've also constructed a dual side driver (those coreless coils have proven their worth in experimenting) with the neo's and while it does work, output is pretty weak and EMI pretty bad (very bad really). It definately needs more juice than the 'regular'humbucking driver. And as you turn up the juice, EMI gets worse. I'd advise not to go the route of the side driver but to concentrate on the raildriver (not that my tests are conclusive or anything).

what configuration was your side driver ?

the one that sounded most promising to me had the coil directly around the magnet...

...............

Theres another variation of the dual core driver I would like to try out, but I haven't the cash or time right now to do it:

Rather than having 2 coils in series in humbucker config, I would like to use more turns of finer wire and connect them in parallel. so instead of 2 4 ohm coils in series, 2 16 ohm coils in parallel. Using 0.15 wire, this would be about 140 turns per coil... which should help reduce the transformer effect fuzz a little, and possible provide better efficiency due to improved coil density.

I'm not sure if it would be better to use the thinner 0.15 wire and keep the overall mass of copper about the same as before, or use the 0.23 wire, and have a bulkier driver (300 turns per coil!) - but possibly better efficiency... anyway, I think that this is definately worth investigation... it might even get around patent issues for a bi-lateral driver... depending on whether it is considered enough of a deviation/improvement from the patented design...

looking forward to those pic anyway B)

@Pete, keep your chin up mate - You will get through this eventually !

Col

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How can I know where the poles of a magnet are located? On a bar magnet for example..

easiest way is to get a magnet that is 'known' e.g. one where the poles are marked and see where it attracts or repels your magnet.

Its also possible with 2 unknown magnets. You have to use a process of elimination... ie. you might find a side that attracts.. so rotate it 180º (in 2D) then if it still attracts, you fond a pole.. otherwise you found a side... you can work it out :D

I try to extract iron core from my old transformer, but do I have to take a particular side, due to its former magnetical use, or it doesn't matter?

I don't think it will matter... I think there should be easier ways to get a core though ?

Dismantling an old transformer then trying to adjust the dimentions/shape of the core sounds like a bunch of hassle to me...

cheers

Col

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Just curious, is there any way to tell the actual gain of an amplifier? I built the F/R and it definetly amplifies a signal, but I would be curious to find out what the maximum gain actually was. Also, when you're using your sustainer, do you tend to have the gain turned up all the way? I was wondering, if you didn't use full gain, could you add a resistor to the input portion of the F/R amp so that less power went into the amp, and more was directed into the bridge pickup's output. Then you could turn up the gain all the way and not sacrifice the output from the bridge.

Edited by FlashBandit
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56.jpg

55.jpg

keep in mind the pictures are about twice as big as the real thing...

Col, it's a dual pickup; same coils I've used in the previous incarnations of the driver. Still haven't gotten round to testing zfrittz's acg circuit so I'm still using the little gem without preamp. As you can see the circuit can be built with discrete components, you can even go ptp :D .

As for the side driver, it was a dual driver with the magnets inside the coils as portrayed in nakamura's patents (like a stacked humbucker with 3 steel bobbins and the magnets as cores, then flip the whole thing sideways). I kind of expected the low output with the coils angled 90 degrees; but the emi was a bit of a surprise. I'd say it was almost as bad as my early single coil designs...so much for the theory of active shielding etc. It's strange how impervious most efforts have been to shielding and I suspect sustainiac and fernandez suffer from the transformer effect as well; hence why they never commercialised a mid driver.

Strangely enough the fizz can make for an interesting effect, especially when you use the driver ebow style moving it over the strings. I'm still hoping for a solution though, starting with the acg.

the parallel thing sounds cool ( I hear emg's are actually parallel as well), not sure about the wire size. I did try to wind a 16 ohm coil with 0.3mm wire and it got pretty big. Number 4 from the right on the pic a few posts back; it used like 32 metres of wire and slipped off the jig because of it's size. That's also when I decided not to use pva anymore.

Tim

Edited by onelastgoodbye
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Col, it's a dual pickup; same coils I've used in the previous incarnations of the driver. Still haven't gotten round to testing zfrittz's acg circuit so I'm still using the little gem without preamp. As you can see the circuit can be built with discrete components, you can even go ptp :D .

hehe, circuit looks good, but tricky to debug or to modify... mind you, it would look great encased in a block of transparent resin :D

I kind of expected the low output with the coils angled 90 degrees; but the emi was a bit of a surprise. I'd say it was almost as bad as my early single coil designs...so much for the theory of active shielding etc.

Very interesting, good to know it doesn't work rather than just guessing

It's strange how impervious most efforts have been to shielding and I suspect sustainiac and fernandez suffer from the transformer effect as well; hence why they never commercialised a mid driver.

I have a hunch that if you want a mid driver to work well with a strong sustain and no bad interference, then you'll need to ditch the battery and go with some solution that doesn't have the power constraints...

The more power you have available, the less efficient the system needs to be, so you have more leeway to tackle the parasitics and crosstalk... e.g. a driver with many times more turns will have a much higher impedence... driving this hard enough to get a good sustain will take more juice than a 9v battery can supply, but many times more turns means many times less transformer effect... Another possibility is that a higher voltage would allow more headroom so that the transformer effect doesn't clip the signal so easily... some combination of these may be a solution to the fabled unicornesque mid driver.

Of course there may also be downsides - the higher impedence of the driver would have more of an impact on the filtering properties of the circuit... so it may be more difficult to control the phase and therefor the variety of harmonic modes may be not so great...

It's possible that this is why Spazzy has had success with a modified pickup and a power amp. Although some more research would be required in order to answer any safety concerns and to find the best possible compromise between power, efficiency, cleanness and harmonic control...

If all this conjecture has any grain of reality, then it may be that there would be two equally good solutions to chose between, each with its own strengths and weaknesses:

battery version = practicality, plug and playability, good harmonic control, safety.

mains (via transformer) version = can be used with more pickup configs, no batteries to change, stronger sustain (maybe)

Strangely enough the fizz can make for an interesting effect, especially when you use the driver ebow style moving it over the strings. I'm still hoping for a solution though, starting with the acg.

The fizz is quite soft and organic, but not having control over it makes it a bad thing in my opinion. The agc has the potential to provide a partial solution - it can ensure that the signal is as strong as possible without clipping.... without it, if you have enough power to drive the high e string, you will get clipping/fizz on the signal from the more responsive strings.

the parallel thing sounds cool ( I hear emg's are actually parallel as well), not sure about the wire size. I did try to wind a 16 ohm coil with 0.3mm wire and it got pretty big. Number 4 from the right on the pic a few posts back; it used like 32 metres of wire and slipped off the jig because of it's size. That's also when I decided not to use pva anymore.

My instinct tells me that for a parallel version, we should use wire about 0.16...

Pete spent lots of time honing in on .2 - .25 as optimum for an 8ohm driver, suggesting that this is near optimal for the current supplied by an LM386/9v combo... the parallel version should divide the current between the two coils, so it seems sensible to have roughly half the mass of wire in each coil... of the standard guages, 0.15 is the closest match.

One other thing, I wonder how easy it would be for you to do a little experiment for me B)

It has been suggested that rare earths are possibly too powerfull for this application...

Looking at your new driver got me thinking, what if you used 3 magnets per coil instead of 6 and staggered them... I wonder if this would provide the benefits of the dual driver without too much pull on the strings ?

so instead of

 ---------------

 | o o o o o o |

 ---------------

 | o o o o o o |

 ---------------


you would have

 ---------------

 | o   o   o   |

 ---------------

 |   o   o   o |

 ---------------

(fingers crossed for the ascii)

EDIT: this is starting to look like it should be a bi-lateral... so maybe not such a useful idea

anyway, thanks for the groovy pics

cheers

Col

Edited by col
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Some interesting posts there and ideas...

My "formula" may only apply to the single coil basic driver...however...there are a lot of factors besides ohmage to consider...although .16 in a parrallel dual coil set up may create the right resistance, how it effects response, resonant frequencies and power output, I have no idea. Typically, experimentationis the order of the day, but it may well be that a dual coil device could benefit from a revision of the formula, or even the whole design concept.

As for the neo-mag thing...those staggered mags look like a proposal I put forward...it's an idea. I have a feeling that having mags opposite eachother as with Tim's design may infact lessen the pull on the string as the magnets themselves will be strongly attracted to eachother in a very compact area. Even thought the forces are strong from each magnet, the close proximity of an equally strong but opposite magnetic force, may well counteract the adverse effects usually associated with these things (at least a similar principle was exploited to good effect in the hex designs that also used 12 mags with no ill effects)...

Meanwhile, I was down the $2 shop and picked up 10 ceramic disc magnets for, well $2, which would be ideal for two drivers...not quite small enough for a core (a little wide) but ideal for a stand alone driver...

hehe, circuit looks good

It does look amazing...what chip is that anyway???

I did some things like this but found the circuit board better in the end, but there is some potential with these simple circuits...

unicornesque
...nice word...is that a word???

pete

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Why is it not working!?! I've rebuilt a new driver, the amp still works, and the sustainer only works at the twelfth fret, placed very close, and it works very slowly and quietly. I'd rather be having the problem of the strings vibrating too hard. How do I get more power out of this? The amp is again the F/R, and the driver is almost exactly what I've read works in this forum. It's a steel bar wrapped with 31AWG to almost exactly 8 ohms. The coil is 2mm below the top of the bar and the coil is 3mm tall. What am I doing wrong?

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Sorry to here that flash...

here is a conversion chart for AWG to Metric...

Wire Conversion Chart

Perhaps there is something there, however it should work as you are close...

So...what are you doing for a magnet? How well is the thing wound...does the driver vibrate or make any audible sound that might indicate loose windings or poor winding... With the circuit, is it giving out full power...are pins 1 and 8 of the LM386 connected, perhaps with a 10uF cap? What is the size of the output cap, I use a 100uF cap before the driver...

Perhaps some other's may have some thoughts...

pete

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I built the amp to the exact specifications on the schematic for the Fetzer/ruby. Pins 1 and 8 are connected by a pot, but theres no cap. The driver is very well wound and it doesn't emit any sounds. And how should the magnets be oriented? I've tried lots of different ways, with varying success.

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What kind of magnets are you using?

All the magnets should face with one polarity through the core. It is easy to get this wrong so test each magnet against another, opposites attract so mark the same on each one. If you don't, with multiple magnets, you may find that the opposite will want to stick to the core...not what you want...so it is better to be sure of which way is up...just a thought...

hope that helps...let me know or show the mags... pete

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I have six 1/8" neos, those really don't make the driver work at all. I also have 2 of those common rectangular prism magnets that I remember being popular as a kid. I'm pretty sure they're ceramic. The only time the driver has worked was when I set it on top of the poles of my crappy strat single coil, but obviously the magnetic attraction was weak so the sustain was too. Here are pics:

DSC00832.jpg

DSC00834.jpg

This is how I arrange my neos on it. Should this work?

DSC00833.jpg

This is how I put the block magnet, should that work? The block magnets are oriented with N on one big side and S on the other side. (I.E. it's not with N on one end and S on the other end, but the big surface area sides.)

DSC00829.jpg

This is my driver and magnets. Note the tiny neoD magnet on top of the pick.

guitarscheme.jpg

this is how I'm wired, each pup has its own pot, no tone pots

Edited by FlashBandit
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So it has to be polarized like this? Where can you buy appropriate magnets for these drivers? And I've turned the magnets so it's polarized like this, but it's still not working consistently. How powerful do the magnets have to be? Can you turn your driver up enough so that the strings vibrate too much? I want mine to be that powerful, but now it's useless. help please!

DSC00833-1.jpg

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the Fetzer circuit according to gain of pickup can not be sufficient like preamp to sustain.

El circuito de fetzer dependiendo de la ganancia de los pickups puede no tener suficiente potencia para sostener.

Saludos

Here is a better translation of this post by Juán:

Depending on the output/gain of the pickups, it may be that the Fetzer circuit will not have sufficient power to provide sustain.

Cheers

Hope this is some help....

David

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I have cheap, standard single coils that come with strats. I'm really anxious to get my electric playable again, and I just want to know if the F/R would work with this. My driver is 8ohms of 31AWG 3mm thick, just what everyone on this forum says you need for a driver. Should I build a more powerful circuit? Can I have more gain from a circuit using just one 9v, or do I need more voltage, or can the F/R take more voltage?

P.S., Thanks for putting up with my electronic ignorance :D

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El hilo de la bobina debe ser de 2 mm. que es lo que se ha demostrado segun las pruebas que casi todos hemos realizado funciona mejor, el previo "fetzer" quizas no tenga suficiente potencia para mover las cuerdas, deberias probar algun previo de guitarra que tubiese un poco de mas salida para atacar el LM386 y asi tener mas potencia, segun las pruebas con una sola bobina de 8 ohmios que yo realize en su dia tampoco conseguia con el fetzer sostener la vibracion de las cuerdas, sin embargo con una disposicion de 2 bobinas de 4 ohmios si trabajaba bien, cosa que tambien depende de la señal que entregue el pickup, porque cuanto mas salida tiene la pastilla mas potencia para sostener.

Los imanes puedes utilizar los de algun pickup viejo.

Con 9 voltios tiene bastante para alimentar el circuito.

Saludos

( Gracias David por las traducciones, estoy mejorando el circuito de los armonicos pronto te lo envio todo)

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Sorry flash not to have replied sooner, but I am a little busy right now...hopefully some more later to say...

zfrittz6 is right that the driver needs to be magnetised just like a pickup is...in fact a pickup magnet is ideal. You don't want anything stronger and you may have something too strong there with those two magnets in that arrangement. Possibly better if one were stuck directly to the bottom of the blade, N (or S) to it. You could use a row of five or six ceramic magnets and I found some fridge magnet discs in a craft shop that would be ideal.

The way you have positioned the neo magnets is not right. The magnetisim is going through the side of the core, not through it from top to bottom, they need to be under it. Also, you need to test each one and mark which are like sides, so that you know that you have all the Nth's (or Sth's) facing the same direction. When you attach one magnet to the steel core, this becomes an extention of the magnet, the next one will be attracted by the opposite pole so will stick better, but that is not what we want. It is very easy to get this mixed up, so use a magnet to test each one and mark the side that consistantly is attracted, or repelled, so you know which side is which.

The only time the driver has worked was when I set it on top of the poles of my crappy strat single coil, but obviously the magnetic attraction was weak so the sustain was too.

It could be that this has been the only time you have had a consistant orientation of the magnets to the strings as the pickup is made this way. The wiring of the pickup may have caused the noise interferance you described.

It is not the magnet that cause the sustain, the magnet provides the environment for the coil to do the driving by manipulating the magnetic field, making it stronger or weaker with the vibration of the string; The coil does the work.

The magnetisim of the pickup is ideal really for the driver. Two strong a magnetic field on the strings and they will have trouble vibrating at all!!!

The circuit you post has some major problems. You are using a simple switch to turn the thing on and a common earth/ground which will not work as an installation, for real. There is no bypass of the neck and mid pickups ground and earth and no auto select of the bridge pickup when the device is turned on. I needed a 4pdt switch to make this happen on my strat for a start. Still, it should work as a tester but the driver will need to be a long way from all those pickups, even de-selected they can transmit EMI through the grounds. Also, even the hots are still connected even if they are suppressed through the resistance of the pots, these will not stop noise and EMI.

You really need to go back to a test mode that I suggested before. Disconnect completely (both hot and earth) the neck and middle pickups from the guitar circuit...place the driver on top of the neck pickup and take the signal from the bridge pickup to the circuit and from the circuit to the controls...

I'm not sure if you meant the Fetzer or the Fetzer/Ruby, because I built the F/R. What circuit do I need to build? What circuits have been proven to work well?

What zfrittz6 was trying to say is that perhaps you need a more powerful preamp to the fetzer. Try a brand new battery just in case to get maximum power, for one thing. The F/R circuit seems to work ok, but I actually do use a different preamp with more power so it is not a good comparison, I did however get the thing to work, albeit with loading (bad tone) without a preamp at all, so I would say it is adequate.

There have been a few circuit variations with different types of amps and preamps and even compressors to give a different type of response. I wouldn't get into these things till you have the thing working in it's basic form. The circuit just provides the power, it is the driver that does the work. The more power you put into it, the more EMI that will come out, and the more noise and interferance problems you will have. Also, the higher power amps will drain a battery so fast that it probably wont be practical to run it from a battery inside the guitar anymore, defeating the idea of it. Ideally, you want efficiency, not power, and that comes from a driver that can react fast enough to move the string in sync with the signal from the circuit, and a circuit that provides a strong signal without extra noises that don't relate to the strings physical vibrations...

I hope that helps a little...got to run...keep at it...and good luck... pete

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Otra cosa que hay que tener en cuenta para que el fetzer/rubi funcione es el tipo de lm 386 que se utilize, y puede ser la causa de que no funcione bien, aqui pongo los modelos que hay con sus respectivas potencias.

3 variations:

ka386 b 600mW

LM386-N1 cheapest variety 300mW

LM386-N3 500mW

LM386-N4 expensive variety 700mW

saludos.

Edited by zfrittz6
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El hilo de la bobina debe ser de 2 mm. que es lo que se ha demostrado segun las pruebas que casi todos hemos realizado funciona mejor, el previo "fetzer" quizas no tenga suficiente potencia para mover las cuerdas, deberias probar algun previo de guitarra que tubiese un poco de mas salida para atacar el LM386 y asi tener mas potencia, segun las pruebas con una sola bobina de 8 ohmios que yo realize en su dia tampoco conseguia con el fetzer sostener la vibracion de las cuerdas, sin embargo con una disposicion de 2 bobinas de 4 ohmios si trabajaba bien, cosa que tambien depende de la señal que entregue el pickup, porque cuanto mas salida tiene la pastilla mas potencia para sostener.

Los imanes puedes utilizar los de algun pickup viejo.

Con 9 voltios tiene bastante para alimentar el circuito.

Saludos

( Gracias David por las traducciones, estoy mejorando el circuito de los armonicos pronto te lo envio todo)

OK, apologies for being late on this one, don't know why, but I am receiving reply notifications late....anyway, here goes:

The coil wire needs to be 2mm, which is what has been demonstrated following the trials in which nearly all of us have found the best performance; the Fetzer preamp may not have sufficient power to move the strings, you ought to try a guitar preamp with more gain to drive the LM386 and thus achieve more power. In trials with a single 8 ohm coil, at the time I was also unable to get the Fetzer to maintain the strings vibrating, however using 2 4 ohm coils it worked well, something which also depends upon the signal provided by each pickup, because the higher the output of the pickup, the more power (energy) there is for sustain.

You can use the magnets from an old pickup. 9 volts is quite sufficient to supply the circuit.

Cheers.

Hope this helps,

Happy Easter and God bless

David

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