best finish?

[rhoads56]

The acid cure lacquer is made by Beckers, which i believe is based in Europe. It takes about 5-10 minutes to be dry enough to touch. I used ten coats (one, plus three, plus three, plus three) over a week. I let it cure for a week, and buffed.

I mixed too much hardner in the mix (like, twice as much!), which lets off a powder as it dries. That stayed for about a month, and has dissappeared. The rep told me id need to rebuff once the powdering stops, but it still looks perfect. Not bad for a first effort anyway. when i say "powder", i mean that the lacquer hardner leaves a fine dust, almost like sanding dust, on the lacquer. It doesnt harm the lacquer. Of course, if you mix the hardner to the correct mixture, it doesnt powder... but i'll do that next time i build a guitar.

[ryeisnotcool2]

cool, thanks. do they have a web site? could i get it in the states?

[LGM Guitars]

I will make this my final opinion post in this thread, if there are direct questions, I have no problem answering them.

In my time of spraying, whether guitars, cars, motorcycles, rc aircraft, or whatever, I have used.......

Component Poly Urethane (PPG, DuPont, RM, etc)

Nitro based laquer

water borne laquer

Enamel

Latex

other acrylic finishes (Createx etc)

Component Epoxy (Endura, Imron)

Now, I have NOT sprayed Poly Ester as I mentioned above, why? for the simple reason that it is harder for me to get, more expensive, and more toxic than all the above mentioned paints except the component epoxy paints.

So, let me give you my pro's and con's with each type of paint.

Component Poly Urethanes:

Pro's: Exceptional flow and levelling,

Very consistent spraying

Very deep finish look when polished

Easy to sand and polish

Full cure in 12 to 24 hours and rock hard

Durable

very good pot life

Con's: Expensive (approximately $100 to $200 a gallon depending on brand)

Toxic, you need better than good ventilation and a very good

respirator.

somewhat time consuming to spray as you wait about 25 minute

between coats (not an issue when doing 6 or so bodies though as by

the time you are done the last, the first is ready to spray again)

Nitro Based Laquer:

Pro's: Inexpensive

Can be sprayed with inexpensive guns or aerosol cans

Very easy to sand and polish

Very deep look when polished

Allows the best movement in wood for acoustic instruments (this also

comes along with a con though)

Con's: VERY long cure time, about 3 weeks before polishing

Continues to shrink almost indefinitely

Requires very good ventilation and mask

Cracks over time (mostly due to wood movement and continued

shrinkage)

Not the most durable

Water borne laquer:

Pro's: Inexpensive

Reasonably non toxic

Water clean up

Easy to polish

Can be sprayed with inexpensive equipment or aerosol

Con's: Does not have the depth of Nitro or Poly's

Not as durable

Takes FOREVER to cure hard (I know this from a neck where brian

refinished a headstock, shipped to me to straighten the neck, and a

good 12 weeks from when he painted it it was still soft enough for

the bubble wrap to leave impressions)

Always seemed to look cloudy to me, never totally clear.

Enamel:

Pro's: Inexpensive

that's really all I can come up with

Con's: seems to remain rubbery for a very long time

Doesnt' really polish well

Long term oxidization and cracking develops

aw hell, just don't use Enamel IMO

Latex:

Pro's: Cheap

Non toxic

sandable

Con's: can be used as a base coat color system, but no clear is available to

my knowledge, must still be cleared with Poly Urethane.

Adhesion can be an issue, this is paint mostly meant for a porous

surface, not the smooth sealed finish of a guitar body.

Acrylic finishes (Createx):

Pro's: Non Toxic

Inexpensive

Water clean up

Easy to spray with airbrush or spray gun

Con's: Clear is not that durable

Paint dries on the tip of the gun very quickly causing clogs

Clear never seems to look "crystal clear"

Adhesion becomes an issue if you do not use proper reducers (water

based does not mean thinned with water, Createx can only be

thinned 20% with water before adhesion becomes a major issue)

Component Epoxy Paints:

Pro's: Extremely durable

Less expensive than Poly Urethanes

Great depth when polished (however see con's below)

Con's: EXTREMELY TOXIC (Imron is the paint equivalent of sour gas, up here

you have to carry certification to spray it, I have certification, and I

still don't spray it) REQUIRES fresh air system/full paint suit/spray

booth

Extremely durable means extremely hard, sanding and polishing is

very difficult

Does not flow as easily as Poly Urethanes.

Basically, the long and short of it is, I've gone to Poly Urethane because of their ease of application, and finished quality. There are many shops still using Poly Urethane, G&L, Fender, GMW Guitar works, etc.

Poly Ester may be becoming industry standard, but it's not what you have to use to attain a professional finish.

Many companies still swear by laquer's.

As with all paints there is a learning curve. The first 5 or so bodies I sprayed with Poly Urethane I had huge runs in because I was still spraying like it was laquer.

The bottom line remains that:

Any paint will work, the end result is up to you though. What I spray, what VH sprays, what anyone sprays, can end up looking like complete crap as well. Professionals use the product that will give THEM the best finish and what is the most accessable to them. There are probably many shops that would still be spraying Nitro laquer except that it is illegal in many states and not available.

A professional finish is based on your application, sanding, and polishing. Not necessarily the product you use. Some products are better than others, there is no denying that. However, the best product used poorly is still worse than the worst product used properly.

Some things to consider:

1. what kind of spray equipment do you have accessable or are you willing to invest in? If you don't have a compressor and spray gun, and aren't wanting to buy them, then the component paints are out.

2. Where are you going to spray it? if your answer is in your basement or garage, I wouldn't recommend component paints either, unless you are prepared to set up a filtered positive pressure spray area.

3. How much do you want to spend on the finish? If you don't want to spend $100, it will be tough to do in component paints, however, one thing to consider. 1 coat of Poly Urethane is equivalent to 2.5 coats of Nitro based Laquer BEFORE shrinking. 10 coats of Poly will be a thicker deeper finish than 30 coats of Nitro after polishing and shrinking.

4. How much sanding and polishing do you want to do? Poly Urethanes will flow out like glass, to the point that if you have a dust free environment you will not need to touch them. Laquers generally always will have some texture to them until they have been sanded out. However, Poly will flow so well, that you can end up with runs in it very easily as well.

5. What is your climate like? If you are in a climate that is very humid, or not consistent, you may not want to spray laquer. High Humidity will cause Laquer to "blush" or cloud. To high a temp (above 75) will cause it to cure on the outer surface to quickly, to low a temp (below 65) will cause an uneven improper cure. This isn't a huge deal, but what it means is more sanding in the end, however, the to fast a cure will lead to cracking. Component paints are MUCH more forgiving in this Realm. On the PPG paints, they say temperature range for spraying is between 40 and 85. Personally, I spray everything at 70 degrees. Humidity can still be an issue for Poly's, but nowhere near as much. What you may see is tiny bubbles in the surface of the poly, this is actually water mist in the paint that rises to the surface as it cures. However, it needs to be VERY humid for that to happen.

7. Assuming you do have spray guns and a compressor, ask yourself this:

a) How big is your spray gun tip? For Poly Urethane, I like 1.4mm. It is a high build paint, and loves to flow. For Laquer, I prefer a slightly smaller tip with less air pressure. If you are spraying with a small gun such as an airbrush, Poly will be tough to spray as you will have to thin it an incredible amount, then runs are more likely.

Do you have proper water traps in your lines? If no, then the same applies to Poly and Laquer as above. I don't recommend spraying with water in your lines anyway, but the Poly will be more capable.

c) Is your compressor big enough to continually keep up a constant air pressure on your gun? I spray at 40psi, when I bought my big gun for Poly's, my original compressor could not fill the tank fast enough for me to spray. Be sure you are getting consistent pressure.

I hope this helps, I guess my true answer is, there is no BEST finish product, only best application.

For me, Poly Urethane is the BEST product because:

- it is easily accesable

- Flows out perfectly

- easy to sand

- looks wonderful when finished

- gives me consistent results on a regular basis.

Doesnt' mean it's the best period, but its' what works for me

Jeremy

[ryeisnotcool2]

thank you, that helps me alot!! now of course i have more questions

1. where do i get it from?

2. about how many guitars will a gallon do?

3. what type of spray gun would work? i dont want to buy a crapper! but i also dont want to spend a furtune.

4 my compresor is a six gallon ya think thats big enough or should i get a bigger one?

5. also what is the pot life of the poly?

thanks

[LGM Guitars]

thank you,  that helps me alot!! now of course i have more questions

1. where do i get it from?

2. about how many guitars will a gallon do?

3. what type of spray gun would work? i dont want to buy a crapper! but i also dont want to spend a furtune.

4 my compresor is a six gallon ya think thats big enough or should i get a bigger one?

5. also what is the pot life of the poly?

thanks

1. Poly Urethane can be purchased from any automotive paint supply shop. Look for names like PPG, RM Diamont, DuPont, Dominion (the dominion stuff is half the price and works just as well as the pricey stuff)

Nitro Laquer is usually easiest found at something like Home Depot or any household paint store.

2. The Poly Urethane Generally mixes 3:1:1 (clear hardener reducer) the Dominion mixes 4:1:1, you buy it as a gallon of clear, quart of hardener and quart of reducer. so basically you get a gallon and a halfish. That should do about 8 guitars for you assuming about 10 coats per guitar.

Laquer requires 2.5 to 3 coats to equal one coat of Poly Urethane, so you will get approximately one third as many done with Laquer.

3. Any larger automotive type gun will work for Poly Urethane, you can get a decent gun for $100, to as much as you want to spend. The one I use was about $150 and I like it better than my $400 Binks. It's by a company called APC and is called the Artison. It is gravity feed (which I highly recommend as you get no air bubbles to cause spitting, and there is no wasted pain) and I spray with a 1.4mm tip on it

4. 6 Gallon should be lots so long as the motor can keep the tank filled fast enough, I can't remember off hand how many CFM my gun uses, but I have a 4hp compressor that keeps up just fine.

5. The pot life of Poly Urethane is about 10 hours once mixed. When you mix it, there is a 30 minute induction time (you just let it sit in the pot for 30 minutes) then you wait 25 minutes between coats to allow it to flash off. I generally try to spray 8 coats, I mix enough paint to spray 4 coats, then as soon as I've sprayed 4, I mix the next batch, once I'm ready to spray again, it's been about 40 minutes and the induction period is over. Then I spray my last 4. Do my Sand to level it, and spray the final 2 or 3 coats. It's always nice to have a little bit left over rather than not enough.

[ryeisnotcool2]

thanks i will have to look into this