Nylon String Archtop

[brian d]

I'm considering making a nylon string archtop with a pickup.

I'm not looking for a classical guitar sound, but something with a look and feel that's more jazzy, and the final sound will be somewhat a surprise.

In my searches, I've found that very few luthiers have made nylon string archtops, but a few have experimented with them.

What are the reasons against nylon string archtops that make them so rare?

Brian

[marksound]

Off the top of my head (and I could be completely off base), but I think you'd have to use a piezo for the pickup. A magnetic pup won't sense the nylon strings, so you're going to get a nylon string sound no matter what. Also, doesn't the carved top of a jazzbox tend to be thicker than a flattop acoustic? I'd think a thicker top wouldn't resonate as much with the nylon strings.

But I don't know. That's just my nickel's worth.

[tirapop]

I think it's mainly tradition. Archtops came into favor before amplification. They're loud enough for a guitarist to hold his own on stage with a band full of brass, strings, and wind instruments. Turn of the century, banjos were popular in large bands for the same reason. The archtop became the standard in jazz bands.

As amplification came in, guitarists were no longer relegated to just playing rhythm. When guitarists stepped up to solo, it was on the same guitar they using to keep time on other songs. The jazz guitar sound became the archtop.

Nylon strings can work on an archtop, but, it won't sound like a steel string archtop. Archtops are labor intensive, expensive, and sell to a limited market. Luthiers have to put food on the table, selling guitars people want to buy. From the other end, if you want a loud nylon string guitar, piezos and an amp can make it as loud as you want and cheaply. Those are reasons why nylon archtops are rare. They're economic arguments.

A nylon archtop sounds like a cool idea. Go for it.

[brian d]

Thanks for the input.

I'm not sure whether to put an under-saddle pickup, or something like an Baggs I-beam. But there's lots of time for that decision.

I don't want it to sound like a steel string archtop, so it's not a problem that it won't.

If I understand correctly, the archtop aided in projecting the acoustic sound, so there will be times when I won't need the pickup at all (hopefully).

While a flat top nylon string will be much easier to make, I think and archtop will just look so much cooler. If I'm going to invest the time to make it myself, I want something unique, not too much like something that can be bought off the shelf.

What would be the considerations in choosing top wood? Bracing...X, parrallel,K?

Cheers,

Brian.

I think it's mainly tradition.  Archtops came into favor before amplification.  They're loud enough for a guitarist to hold his own on stage with a band full of brass, strings, and wind instruments.  Turn of the century, banjos were popular in large bands for the same reason.  The archtop became the standard in jazz bands. 

As amplification came in, guitarists were no longer relegated to just playing rhythm.  When guitarists stepped up to solo, it was on the same guitar they using to keep time on other songs.  The jazz guitar sound became the archtop.

Nylon strings can work on an archtop, but, it won't sound like a steel string archtop.  Archtops are labor intensive, expensive, and sell to a limited market.  Luthiers have to put food on the table, selling guitars people want to buy.  From the other end, if you want a loud nylon string guitar, piezos and an amp can make it as loud as you want and cheaply.  Those are reasons why nylon archtops are rare.  They're economic arguments.

A nylon archtop sounds like a cool idea.  Go for it.

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[marksound]

Read this article, originally in Acoustic Guitar magazine.

The luthiers in the article were all pretty much pleased with the results, but they had to rethink the construction. In other words, the top and bracing on a traditional steel string archtop were too heavy to project the sound of the nylon strings.

[brian d]

I read that article. What I got from it was that the top has to be lighter and smaller than for a steel string archtop.

In terms of bracing, each luthier seemed to use a different type of bracing, and it wasn't clear from the article what the reasons/advantages of each one was. I was hoping to pick the collective brain of the group to get some guidance of how to choose.

Maybe nylon archtops are at a stage where it's all trial and error and I'll have to just flip a coin for bracing type and hope :-)

Regards,

Brian.

[thedoctor]

There were a few nylon-stringed archtops made that I thought were

popular at one point in time. I had a Kay tenor archtop that used two bronze-wound nylons and two plain nylons. I played that guitar for about ten years and gave it to a school-bud to learn with. Never put new strings on it the whole time I played it. Sears sold a 6-string jazz/classic 6-string (of course with no PUPs) just before the Holly/Elvis transistion. Seems to me it was labeled a Silvertone. Not much help but at least you know it works, to some extent. I think I remember a couple of early 60s guys just having them around their necks to look cool on stage.

[KTLguitars]

Sounds like a good idea-

just some independent thoughts -havn't had the time to read the article linked above yet...

The main difference of flat tops and arched tops are the way the top vibrates - While the flat top bridge (mainly) rocks forwards and backwards, the arched tops vibrates up and down.

As the forces from the strings will be smaller with nylon strings, it could be an idea to go for a fairly high break angle over the bridge, maybe 15 degrees - and also do the top thinner to make it lighter - but mayby retain a considerable bracing to retain stiffnes to aid the distribution of the vibrations. Pay also attention to the recurving around the edge of the top, the flexible zone, to allow the vibrations to distribute over the entire top surface.

I think maybe I would have gone for parallell bracing - but that is just gut feeling...

Regarding the I-beam - I have tried it on a steel string archtop with quite good results - but you have to rotate it 90 degrees around its longitudinal axis because the I-beam pics up the rocking vibration from the flat top bridge (that is why it tends to supress feedback). You will loose the feedback suppression effect but it will bick up the string vibrations that way!

regards,

Knut

[Fezik]

i don't know if anyones touched on this but if you go on the LMI site and scroll down theres a letter and a photo from a guy who makes archtop nylon string electrics. and hes got a nice gold humbucker on there i'm not sure how it works but maybe someone else knows.

[Myka Guitars]

...hes got a nice gold humbucker on there i'm not sure how it works...

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It doesn't work, that's one of his steel string electrics. The builder is Matt Artinger, a very cool guy from Pennsylvania. I played one of his nylon string electric at a guitar show and it has a Highlander pickup in it in the bridge. Here is his website: Artinger guitar models. Click on Nylon String and check it out in detail.

~David

Edited May 10, 2005 by Myka Guitars

[Fezik]

It doesn't work, that's one of his steel string electrics. The builder is Matt Artinger, a very cool guy from Pennsylvania. I played one of his nylon string electric at a guitar show and it has a Highlander pickup in it in the bridge. Here is his website: Artinger guitar models. Click on Nylon String and check it out in detail.

~David

that would explain it. hes got some nice stuff.

[JohnJohn]

Sounds like a great idea,though I agree that you'd have to thin the top a shade and very carefully tune the tone bars.

I would say that you don't see a lot of that because people don't feel it'll sell.

Classical players tend to be traditional.