Kit (luthiers Merc) For A Similar Body To Alvarez Fd-60?

[Sapphireblue]

Hi all. I've decided to buy a kit for my sweetie for Christmas. He is an acoustic guitar player, and a fine-furniture woodworker, so this seems a good fit.

I'm liking Luthiers Mercantile's kits because they seem to be very well suited to someone who might enjoy the process & handiwork of cutting and carving himself (as opposed to some kits I've seen which seem to be more like model airplanes, where the only tool you need is glue). And because I can pick the woods. My husband has very specific tastes in lumber

Now the question: he plays an Alvarez FD-60. Is there anyone who might be familiar with that guitar and with Luthiers Mercantiles' kits who could tell me which kit type is comparable in terms of size & shape? They offer "steel-string" kits and "dreadnought" kits, but the steel-string kits come with dreadnought plans, and I'm just terribly confused. Too, the dreadnought kits are way more expensive, so if I can work off a steel-string kit I'm a happy girl. I'm going over my Christmas budget no matter what kit I buy but it seems like such a perfect gift that I can't help myself.

[Jon]

I can't offer any advice on the acoustic questions, but if my girlfriend EVER got me anything woodworking related, I would die a happy man. I have always heard great things about the lmii and stewmac kits though. You can also check out stewmacs kits here.

Dreadnought

Triple-O

[Sapphireblue]

I can't offer any advice on the acoustic questions, but if my girlfriend EVER got me anything woodworking related, I would die a happy man. I have always heard great things about the lmii and stewmac kits though.

Heh. See, by now, in our household, woodworking gifts are expected and par for the course. This year I was going to get him the pretty Dozuki pull saw he's been eyeing forever, but you know, he's been eyeing it, so where's the surprise in that? His wallet hand isn't broken, he can buy it himself.

Anyway. Thanks for the stewmac tip. I know they're very well-regarded, but LMII's seem more customizable. I mean, even if my boy never builds this guitar, I will get *hardcore* wife points for buying a kit with lacewood parts. He's been looking for an excuse to use lacewood for ages, but it's awfully flashy for most furniture applications.

[Mattia]

The Alvarez model is a drednaught, FYI, but consider getting him a 000 or OM kit; he's already got a dread after all. Unless he's a hardcore flatpicker/only strums hard, no fingerpicking at all. Or has expressed hatred for slightly smaller bodies.

[fryovanni]

Luthiers merchantile is a good choice. It is hard to say what would be best in terms of size. If he likes the dread with a cutoway and would like to make a similar size a dred would be a good choice for a first build. Size of the body makes up a lot of the sound you can get from it. As far as wood choice. If you know what he likes go ahead and buy that type of back and sides(it will make it a more personal gift). East Indian Rosewood or Mahogany are more common for first builds(cost and workability tend to make them good choices), but there is no reason to not use Lacewood. A Dreadnaught is a steel string acoustic. There are many specialty tools that are needed to build acoustics. Many of these can be worked around by getting a kit, but there will be a few that will still be needed. You would do well to go with a kit(Sitka Spruce top is a good first, and back/sides *what you think he will like). Be sure to get a good video or book on building, and maybe a little gift certificate for some specialty hand tools(the book/video will help him figure out what he has and needs). Sounds like he will get a kick out of it.

P.S. You could ask this question over at the OLF online luthiers forum. That is more of an acoustic site, and there are a lot of very helpful and knowledgable builders that could help you with your options.

Peace,

Rich

[Sapphireblue]

Good input from both of you, thanks. You know, I don't even know if what he does is fingerpicking or flatpicking. Seems pretty intricate (Mark Kozelek? Jose Gonzales?) so I'd've guessed fingerpicking but if you guys are saying the Alvarez is a strumming guitar then, cripes, who knows.

Am leaning away from lacewood now... can only get it from LMII in backs/sides, and I just wasn't coming up with woods that are available for the other parts that seemed to arrange nicely in contrast with the lacewood... now I'm thinking wenge back/sides, mahogany front, curly maple binding, bloodwood headplate & bridge (he likes all of these) and cocobolo fingerboard (out on a limb here). He tends to think of spruce as a pretty crap wood (from a furniture perspective). Of course I know there's a vast amount of sound consideration to these woods that I'm totally ignoring in favor of aesthetics but again I'm musically illiterate. High school mixed chorus, back in the day, never covered this stuff...

Was hoping to come up with something close to what he had, just in case he DID hate smaller instruments... never expressed it to me but I've never gone guitar-shopping for him before Still, a) dreadnought kits are pricey, and I think the Alvarez is a "thin-body dreadnought" so he can't be too hung up on having the biggest guitar around. So yeah, I'm looking at OM now. Hope it's not too tiny, hubby's long & lean and would look silly playing a ukelele

Eek, I ramble. I didn't realize this site was more electric-focused. I'll find OLF and see what I can find out there. Thanks so much.

Edited December 7, 2006 by Sapphireblue

[Mattia]

Gave the artists you mentioned a listen, and they're fingerpickers more than flat (flatpicking = plying with plectrum); dreds aren't only for strumming or bluegrass, rather OM's excell at fingerpicking but can be driven harder, like a dred, if need be.

In terms of what to choose, I would strongly reccomend Spruce for the top, bearclaw if you want something visually inteteresting. Sounds great, and sounds familiar. Mahogany neck, standard issue.

For backs/sides, you could go ahead and do the lacewood. Pair it with full cocobolo trim (binding, headplate, bridge, fingerboard) for example, for a fairly classic, clean, unified look. Lacewood does not bend easily (apparently), but neither does Wenge (nasty splintery stuff). Indian rosewood is always a safe bet in that regard. I wouldn't try to get too busy with the trim choices, not get too many different colours/extyres going on one instrument; your husband can always change his mind about some of the bits and pieces later, save the others up for the next instruments.

[Jon]

I know I post this picture whenever someone mentions Cocobolo. They make killer fingerboards, excellent fretless fingerboard wood! A darker colored body (Wenge sides / back as mentioned) with cocobolo would look very sweet and unique. I just don't know how easy the wood is too bend, it is very dense and I would imagine it being very brittle when thinned down for use as an acoustic wood.

Click to enlarge!

[Sapphireblue]

Mattias: thanks for advocating restraint. Most reasonable of you I know wenge isn't the easiest thing to work, but isn't all wood with pronounced figuring or grain going to take some work to bend to some extent?

Yeah, there's a lot of different stuff happening in the woods I listed, but I think it could work. Not to all tastes I'm sure. Still, honestly, I'd be shocked if he built a guitar using only & all the woods I buy. If I just get things I know he likes, then when he decides to buy different tonewoods, at least he'll use the stuff I bought for boxes or something ;D The cocobolo's the one thing I don't think he's ever worked with, but I thought it'd look kind of fly with wenge.

If I buy a spruce top, I'm 99% sure he *would* replace that with something else. Even if I told him that the entire guitar-building internet seems to agree it's a great tonewood, he'll have to get past his anti-spruce prejudice on his own. He's not accustomed to taking woodworking advice from me

But: yes on the mahogany neck, 100%. In that, at least, I am content to stick to basics

Jon: that *is* pretty. Looks like it's got an awful nice finish on it too. Interesting distinction tho between building for solid-body vs. acoustic. I'm going to have to point him to this forum when the time comes. I imagine that the collective knowledge here would be a tremendous resource for someone on whom it's not half-wasted... as opposed to someone like me, whose primary woodshop talent is a careful pour of India Pale Ale. (Hey, same as my musical talent, whaddya know!)

Edited December 9, 2006 by Sapphireblue

[fryovanni]

I really think choosing woods that you know would interest him is great. He will really appreciate the fact that you put so much thought into the choice, and pay attension to his likes and dislikes. That said.... Mattia is giving you some solid advise. Not from a woodworkers point of view, but from an acoustic builders point of view. You may be supprised by things like how his opinion of Spruce will change as it relates to acoustic guitars. A soundboard has to be increadably efficient to sound great. Many things go into the efficiency, but the wood needs to have a VERY high strength to weight ratio(as well as have very straight grain). Sitka Spruce has about the highest strength to weight ratio of ANY wood. This is why it is so commonly used. Mind you it is not a price issue as you can pay $10 to $750 for a single Sitka soundboard. There are other options, and they may be good choices also(but keep in mind they do have different properties, and required adjustments to construction to accomodate). Some of these woods would be; Western Red cedar, Redwood, Mahogany(mentioned w/caution), Port Orford Cedar and so forth.

I am sure whatever you choose he will most definately love. For his sake I would recommend you try not to stray toooo... far from commonly used acoustic woods though. It will decrease his chances of making a guitar that sounds good, as well as make research much harder.

Peace,Rich

[Sapphireblue]

OK, OK! I'm totally positive that when & if Husband picks up this guitar-building thing and runs with it, he'll learn about the tonal qualities of different woods, including spruce. Until then, I gotta generate enough excitement for him to actually want to build the guitar out of the box of lumber and hardware he'll be opening up on Xmas. Sizzle first. Then steak!

But the strength-to-weight-ratio thing is actually a really interesting bit of technical info, so maybe if I can read up on Why Spruce Rules enough to be able to explain it to him in an intelligent way myself, I can counteract any "box of spruce... you shouldn't have" reaction.

If all else fails I will blame the Internet. That means you guys

I've also been meaning to read up on mahogany as a soundboard (I'm sure it's been discussed here, will check the archives), and with your note of caution I will definitely do that. Was planning to go that way b/c a) I trust LMII wouldn't sell a certain wood for a certain part of the guitar if it was totally unsuitable and Husband and mahogany play very nicely together.

Thanks to everyone, really, for trying to keep me from messing up too bad. Hope I don't seem too stubborn. Wish I had something to offer in return... er, if anyone ever needs any guidance on stained glass construction, drop me a line?

Edited December 9, 2006 by Sapphireblue

[fryovanni]

Well you have the right idea. You know better than us what he would be happy with.

Here are a few links(outside LMI)

RC Tonewoods, Bob is a very sharp acoustic wood dealer, and has a great site with lots of different woods to look over.

Gilmer Wood, Gilmer is a great wood dealer. Slightly expensive, but they are one of the best exotic dealers out there.

Ervin Somogyi, Read through some of his articles on guitar design, and tonewoods. Very good information.

I hope those help. I am really knocked out by how much effort and thought you are putting into his gift. He must be a lucky fellow.

[Sapphireblue]

Hey, thanks for the reading material. Man, I wish I'd had this brilliant idea of mine a couple months earlier. Thank god LMII has fast shipping.

He's not as lucky as I am Nor apparently as lucky as you are, in light of your location which I just now noticed. We're in the Washington DC area and just fell in love with Portland/Oregon last year, and let me tell you I am ready to pack my bags and leave. Noticed the other day on some "luthier schools and instructors" page that OR has more than its fair share too, which makes total sense in some way I can't quite put my finger on...

[Mattia]

Oregon has the world's supply of wood ;-)

Also, trust me, once your husband feels, flexes, taps and looks at a fine spruce top, his opinion of it should change pretty darn fast. This ain't no home depot pine we're talking about!

[fryovanni]

Being a born and raised Oregonian. It is a great place to live. I think Darci and I dug Maui more, but the comparison was not fair(just a vacation). My daughter Alyssa on the other hand would prefer to live in Disneyland .

There are a bunch of board members kinda in that part of the country. Maybe down the road you can drag your husband to the board and they could point out where they go for supplies and wood(at least the local bit). Networking is really helpful when your trying to build guitars.

P.S. Mattia is about half right. Oregon has half the worlds supply. He has the other half stashed in his shop. Go ahead and get him to post some pictures of his "stash-O-zoot".

Peace,

Rich

BTW: Maybe some of that stained glass creativity could be turned into guitar inlay. Easy and inexpensive to get started, but highly addictave.

[Sapphireblue]

Oh, well, Maui. You're right, that's not fair. Tho honestly, beaches bore me a little. I'm more of a mountains-and-streams girl, but that has a lot to do with being a Siberian Husky owner (I'm pretty sure Husky Heaven must look a lot like the Columbia River gorge). I don't have kids but I imagine the contagious glee of taking the dogs for a romp/swim/hike is probably not so different from the happiness of watching your kid tear up Disneyland!

Funny you brought up inlay... the other day, looking at rosettes got me Googling to see what exactly marquetry is. The whole concept of just stacking different veneers atop each other so when you cut through all of them everything fits like puzzle pieces? My first thought was, what I wouldn't give for glass to work that way.

Re: Mattia's shop, I got no problem with wood-hoarders. My theory is, the resulting eventual "oh my god, I have way too much stuff" is part of the reason you can find big stashes of nice wood for way, way below retail on eBay. So it works out in the end for those patient enough to take advantage

[Acousticraft]

Hey Sapphire,

If your man doesn't like spruce go for Western Red Cedar. Both acoustics I have built have been Mahogany back, sides with a Cedar top and they sound different to Spruce, but still a really nice sound and lots of volume. Both acoustics were totally different sounding but I did use some NZ Matai for the tone bars on the 2nd build.

Edited December 10, 2006 by Acousticraft

[fryovanni]

Funny you brought up inlay... the other day, looking at rosettes got me Googling to see what exactly marquetry is. The whole concept of just stacking different veneers atop each other so when you cut through all of them everything fits like puzzle pieces? My first thought was, what I wouldn't give for glass to work that way.

Re: Mattia's shop, I got no problem with wood-hoarders. My theory is, the resulting eventual "oh my god, I have way too much stuff" is part of the reason you can find big stashes of nice wood for way, way below retail on eBay. So it works out in the end for those patient enough to take advantage

I have never really tried marquetry sticks. One of these days I will have to give it a go. I do really enjoy working with shell inlay and purfling. I only wish I had more time to really get into more complex designs. It is a great break from building jigs, templates and the woodworking side of building. I have never tried stained glass either. I bet it is a lot of fun.

As far as Mattia's stash. A medical doc's schedule will probably slow down the volume of guitars he can build but, I doubt we will see it pop up on Ebay. I am sure he will have well seasoned wood for his projects when he is ready to use it.

Peace,Rich

[Mattia]

Darn tootin'. this wood ain't goin' nowhere. Well, until I start resawing and want to sell off any excess sets I've got. Rich also slightly exagerates, and is neglecting to point out his own massive pile-o-zoot

[Sapphireblue]

I finally bought his present!

I pretty much turned around on every decision I thought I'd made... I went with a "serviced" stewmac 000 kit, not a custom pile-of-tonewoods dreadnought kit from LMII. The more I thought about the pile-of-wood kit, the more it seemed like maybe even for a woodworker that might be a little much on guitar #1? (just wait til #2 though!) Stuff like carving the neck, I don't know. If I'm wrong, he can always go buy blanks to replace what's in the stewmac kit with handmade parts

Plus all the specialty tools involved in pile-of-wood, it's probably bad form to give people presents that cost them a lot of money, although on the other hand it's like buying woodworking tools, so maybe he just needs any excuse to do so?

Kinda hate that there won't be any lacewood or bloodwood or wenge involved, but he likes mahogany just fine, and of course we'll have that spruce top y'all are so keen on ;D

Thanks SO much for everyone's help and advice. I'll post back here and let you all know how the reaction to the present goes... and I'll of course suggest that he'll find friendly and useful folks here for his own questions.

P.S.--stained glass IS fun! if you're curious about the process, check out my stained glass weblog at http://www.sapphireblue.com/dangerousart/ ... I take pictures as I build along.

[Jon]

Very cool work!

Definitely keep us up to date and direct him here. It's always great to see more guitar building work.