Help With Wiring Strat With 2 P90s & Middle Mini Humbucker

[floatingby]

Hi

I am wiring a strat project and I am putting a dream 90 P90 pickup in the bridge, a stock P90 in the neck and a Diesel "Firehawk", which I thought was a single coil, but I think it is a mini humbucker pickup in the middle.

I have wired a couple before, but I am still learning and not to keen on the why and where of polarity, how to tell, etc.

I would like to get the out of phase type sound between the bridge and middle and the middle and neck, like a strat?

I would like to have one master volume, a tone for middle and neck and a tone for bridge.

I have downloaded a million strat single coil diagrams from stock to with mods.

Will they work the same? I understand it is always experimenting, but is there anything else I need to know??

Thank you for whatever light you can shed on this.

The Diesel pickup I have is a mini humbucker, and not a single coil, which makes sense because it came in with five leads? I was going to have that one as the middle pickup. Thought it would be interesting? Do you think I can do the same with it out of phase with the neck and bridge P90?

Unfortunately I don't seem to be able to obtain a schematic or any wiring details for the Diesel pickup. It has a main black braided ground wire and 4 small leads, green, red, white, and black. The green and the white seem to be tinned together?

I have also thought about getting a 3rd P90, but I cant find a middle one that is in a humbucker size format with the gold I am working on and I want it to sound DIFFERENT!

Appreaciate it!!

I have since found out that the wiring is red=hot, white/green=solder together, black to ground. suppose to be standard Gibson humbucking wiring.

Edited July 28, 2008 by floatingby

[psw]

Ohhh...so, no one want's to reply, so I will just have to add another 2C to the kitty...

First, welcome to PG floatingby...

Sounds like an interesting mix of pickups. Obviously with three pickups you are going to have an enormous number of options.

It will sound different and unlike pickups in combination often produce the most interesting sounds.

For the HB pickup, keep the two wires tinned together and use as a two wire...red=hot // black to ground and treat as a single coil.

I would then wire it as a strat treating each pickup as a single coil just the same with a standard 5 way switch. This is a good place to start and will give you a direct comparison with a standard strat.

Personally, I would use a master tone (how often do people really use a tone anyway, especially two)!

This gives you one knob free for a range of options down the line. One cool option control I did on one of my guitars was to have a three way switch (you could do more) treating the guitar as a two pickup guitar. I then used the spare pot as a volume independently for the middle pickup so I could dial that in on any position. This gives you potentially all three pickups at once as well as the ability to mix any amount of middle as desired. I forget other options, but there is a way to get this control to work for other options by using it on the neck pickup on a five way strat wire. This means when you select the bridge pickup with the neck turned up you get both neck and bridge (or a mix) and various mixes of the middle and neck plus all three with a variable mix of neck pup in position 4 of all three pickups...all without altering the control look.

But for now, rather than over complicate things, go for a standard strat wire and see what it sounds like, it is always easier to tinker with a working guitar than to nut something out from scratch then trouble shoot it.

With the HB in the middle and the 4 wire wiring, you have other options too, but you can get carried away creating a switch monster that is hard to find the sounds you really like. There may be options that appeal to your particular style of playing or this combination, phase switching where there are multiple combinations of pickups can be very effective, especially if on this mix control...this could even be done with a push pull put on this control. This can sound thin and funky but in some combinations (2 and 4) it can produce the opposite of quack in the form of a thick midrange sound for heavy leads and riffing.

Start simple for now and let us know how it sounds...

pete

[floatingby]

Thanks! The middle volume idea sound very interesting! Would you wire the 5 way the same and just wire the middle pickup to the extra volume? Did you use a mini toggle?

Good advice! I will keep it simple to start.

Thank you for your help! I am new on forums. I have spent much time online finding many combinations but allot of them contradict each other.

I am wondering about capacitor choices with 2 single coils and a humbucking?

I have had this project up with p90 in bridge and two stock strat pickup, but I di not like it. I did have however, a 033 Vitamin Q cap in it and I think the P90 sounded good, although I did not have any other comparisons.

I am also trying to decide pots, 250K or 500K? I have purchased both.

I would like to learn more depth about the wiring as I have put 3 strats together, but only wired this one myself. I have ordered a couple of books on it. I enjoy working on them, but as a player, I have a strong passion for "my sound"

I tend to play the guitar volume on 10 and control the volume on my XT Live pedal, because I play quite a bit of tight high gain stuff and I like allot of bite from the cleaner stuff. I have heard of installing a resistor on the bridge and/or middle pickup to preserve the highs when the guitar volume is lowered? It seems my way of playing maybe suits that?

Thanks!

[Geo]

If you want brightness, try a 500k volume pot and no tone pot. You can even use a 1Meg pot if you want. The higher the resistance of the pot, the greater resistance between signal and ground when the pot is full up, thus fewer high frequencies bled off (as highs bleed to ground thru the pot more easily than lower frequencies.)

[psw]

I am glad you liked the advice...I am full of it!

Start off as a basic strat type wiring as I say, that way you can hear what it sounds each pickup sounds like on their own and the combination of the HB and the neck and bridge. Use the 500k as Geo was saying for more high's, 1meg may be too much with the P-90's and the volume taper will be off I suspect.

Listen to the guitar straight to a clean amp, all digital processors have compression EQ and noise reduction and does all sorts of things in the A/D-D/A process that disguises the true sound of an amp. This guitar will need to have adjustments to the amp and effect settings to get the most out of it.

Use the cap you have handy, swap out if you want. As I say, most players never use a tone control and there is a lot of mojo about it. You shouldn't hear the tone control really if it is on ten ideally.

If you think you are going to want to do something with a spare control, I suggest the middle control and it might be an idea to install the pot and knob but not wire it to anything for now. Wire as if 2 knob strat/ibanez thing.

I have heard of installing a resistor on the bridge and/or middle pickup to preserve the highs when the guitar volume is lowered? It seems my way of playing maybe suits that?

This is generally a small capacitor or resistor and cap in parallel across the volume control "treble bleed cap" which preserves highs as the volume is reduced. This is useful, but in the interests of simplicity, leave it out for now. Some players like the darker sound with reduced volume...at the moment you don't use the volume at all so I'd suggest leaving it out and adding it later.

In my el-cheapo DIY sustainer-strat I used a standard pot, 500k will do as the control for the volume on a different pot.

You can go nuts with wiring but "your sound" truely is in your hands. That said, you can have a guitar with a few great unique sounds or options. Wiring ideas can be found at

Guitar Nutz 2 forum

These guys are great help and just do wiring and will have a bunch of great suggestions...this link goes to the schematic page with some unique ideas (don't post in this section, look about).

DGB Studio

This is one of the most amazing sites for wiring but not for the faint of heart, thousands and thousands of wiring ideas ands schematics!!! Plus lots more (press the english button before exploring!)

So...my suggestion is to get the thing wired as simply as you can (probably single vol/tone) then add bells and whistles after playing with the guitar and getting to know it. Play with the effects and amps settings to get the best from it. Think about what is "missing" (a brighter sound, more power, quack) and then ask again to get some suggestions or simply try a few simple alterations (treble bleed cap, different tone cap if you use the tone)...

Don't forget to ground the strings at the bridge

pete

[floatingby]

I am glad you liked the advice...I am full of it!

Start off as a basic strat type wiring as I say, that way you can hear what it sounds each pickup sounds like on their own and the combination of the HB and the neck and bridge. Use the 500k as Geo was saying for more high's, 1meg may be too much with the P-90's and the volume taper will be off I suspect.

Listen to the guitar straight to a clean amp, all digital processors have compression EQ and noise reduction and does all sorts of things in the A/D-D/A process that disguises the true sound of an amp. This guitar will need to have adjustments to the amp and effect settings to get the most out of it.

Use the cap you have handy, swap out if you want. As I say, most players never use a tone control and there is a lot of mojo about it. You shouldn't hear the tone control really if it is on ten ideally.

If you think you are going to want to do something with a spare control, I suggest the middle control and it might be an idea to install the pot and knob but not wire it to anything for now. Wire as if 2 knob strat/ibanez thing.

I have heard of installing a resistor on the bridge and/or middle pickup to preserve the highs when the guitar volume is lowered? It seems my way of playing maybe suits that?

This is generally a small capacitor or resistor and cap in parallel across the volume control "treble bleed cap" which preserves highs as the volume is reduced. This is useful, but in the interests of simplicity, leave it out for now. Some players like the darker sound with reduced volume...at the moment you don't use the volume at all so I'd suggest leaving it out and adding it later.

In my el-cheapo DIY sustainer-strat I used a standard pot, 500k will do as the control for the volume on a different pot.

You can go nuts with wiring but "your sound" truely is in your hands. That said, you can have a guitar with a few great unique sounds or options. Wiring ideas can be found at

Guitar Nutz 2 forum

These guys are great help and just do wiring and will have a bunch of great suggestions...this link goes to the schematic page with some unique ideas (don't post in this section, look about).

DGB Studio

This is one of the most amazing sites for wiring but not for the faint of heart, thousands and thousands of wiring ideas ands schematics!!! Plus lots more (press the english button before exploring!)

So...my suggestion is to get the thing wired as simply as you can (probably single vol/tone) then add bells and whistles after playing with the guitar and getting to know it. Play with the effects and amps settings to get the best from it. Think about what is "missing" (a brighter sound, more power, quack) and then ask again to get some suggestions or simply try a few simple alterations (treble bleed cap, different tone cap if you use the tone)...

Don't forget to ground the strings at the bridge

pete

[floatingby]

Thanks!

It seems scary to have no tone control, but I rarely ever use them. Sometimes I use it to back of the highs on cleaner stuff.

Thanks for stopping me to go nuts with all the ideas. I am going to wire it today as a stock strat and see what happens. I also have some latitude with my pedal as I set the sound with my amp controls all on flat and adjust each sound to taste.

I have a 500k mini pot with DPDT and I think I will install it without using the DPDT, Just to have it there if needed?

I have heard many different ideas on capacitors, most of which is they don't do much when played all the way up?

It's confusing with so many opinions! ie; bumble bee, paper oil, Vitamin Q, Orange drop, etc.

I have had the strat up with a P90 in the bridge with a Vitamin Q .033 cap and it sounded pretty good. I think I'll start with that. Is there a way to wire so that different caps can be changed without taking the strings off? Maybe wire the two points to the tremolo cavity in back? Any suggestions. This seems where a Les Paul would be very handy! Problem is I can get sounds like a Les Paul and so much more with the strat!

Thanks again for the help!

[kpcrash]

Just an idea (can't believe pete didn't throw this one in )

Use the P/P DPDT connected to an active preamp circuit - you can find tons of them online and each pick the shape of the sound you want from it (warm/metal/etc) . That way you can engage the circuit at will. Or, perhaps use the DPDT to connect a second tone pot and engage one pot over the other while coil splitting? Put different caps on the tones? Sorry - I know I need help some days.

[psw]

As always I am misunderstood...you guys must love my elongated posts that I make when I wake a 5am in winter...!

need coffee...

Just an idea (can't believe pete didn't throw this one in

Use the P/P DPDT connected to an active preamp circuit -

As I right this I am having trouble making said coffee because my kitchen table has been taken over by my telecaster rewire project...why...cause I am waiting on active preamp and am lazy! It will be there for another week!

That's better..coffee made!

OK..start again.

This is Floatingby's first thread/post and his first rewire. Also, we don't quite know what this guitar sounds like yet or which direction the project wants to go to. So, my advice is to make this as simple as possible, get the guitar working and work out from there what it sounds like with this mix of pickups and his amp and setup...

If you think you are going to want to do something with a spare control, I suggest the middle control and it might be an idea to install the pot and knob but not wire it to anything for now. Wire as if 2 knob strat/ibanez thing.

Basically, keep it basic to start with. It is easier to mod a working guitar than design a complex rewire (where there might be problems) install it (where there might be problems) and then trouble shoot it (because we know there will be problems) especially if this is the first rewire and are having trouble with which wire is which already (no offence, I have the same problem with every 4 wire HB).

It seems scary to have no tone control, but I rarely ever use them. Sometimes I use it to back of the highs on cleaner stuff.

No..you still have a master tone control. On a strat, you usually have three controls, the nearest one to the strings should be the master volume, the lowest one usually the master tone...so you still have that to control highs, not to mention resetting your amp and effects for this guitar...something often neglected. It was only a suggestion as the use of a master tone control frees up one pot for another function or even a switch, or you could add it in as a tone control later perhaps.

I under use my tone control and the strat dual tone controls do have uses with a skilled player. My fav Jeff Beck is probably the master of this with dual tone controls for neck and bridge pickups; he uses them in combination to get harmonica like sounds and such and if you watch him play he is always manipulating all the controls trem and picking (without a pick) as he plays!

AS for adding switches...this is often an easier option, but then you are looking at drilling and wiring and you might not like or have use for the mod...so first things first. You don't want to end up like this project hanging on my wall...

The reason my kitchen has been taken over by telecaster is because of an active system that failed to live up to it's advertising and proved not to be so great in practice after weeks of mucking around with it. Don't let this be you!

Actually, taking my own advice, I will be wiring this guitar back up simply and testing each of the new systems as I go...so these threads help me too!

It's confusing with so many opinions! ie; bumble bee, paper oil, Vitamin Q, Orange drop, etc.

I have had the strat up with a P90 in the bridge with a Vitamin Q .033 cap and it sounded pretty good.

Ah...there is a strong opinion, which I tend to agree with, that this is all mojo. There might be something to it, inconsistencies, but generally the tone cap makes very little difference, the value does on the effect of the tone control when used but not when on 10 but not because of type. If you think about it, it is a component, a capacitor, no matter how it is made. These are all ancient technology that were used in vintage guitars and you wouldn't judge your TV by the type of caps in there! More of an influence on a tone control is the taper and quality of the pot. The tone control is a simple R-C circuit (resistor (ie the pot) capacitor (the cap)) circuit to roll off highs to ground. It is the combination of values and how they change that is critical to it's working. An advanced mod I believe is to take apart the pot and scratch the resistance strip so that there is no connection when the tone is on ten, making a straight bypass of the control completely till it is needed...but advanced, as in I have not done it yet nor can vouch for it, nor intend to do it!

Some people are charging an arm and a leg for these rare caps, but really the modern caps do much the same job but built more reliably and smaller than these old technologies. Still, a little mojo in the guitar wont hurt and changing values till you find a combination that works with an individual guitar is worth doing. If a V-Q 0.33 cap worked before...do that!

ohhh...it is hard to wake up this morning...so I will be off for more coffee and return shortly...

pete

[psw]

Ok...I am back to try and make more sense...

Wire simply as you will have more success and can get a better idea of what the guitar actually sounds like.

As you have shown an interest in further mods, wire as a master volume and tone leaving one control free for future mods without committing to anything and leaving a second tone control still as an option.

Here are some ideas for the centre pot that could be used...

Gutar Nutz Free Neck On switch

According to the description at ten the neck pickup is on, from 9-0 the control functions as a normal neck pickup tone control. It doesn't look too hard, so perhaps use this as your wiring diagram. The benefit is that you get the elusive and very useful all three pickups at position 4 and bridge and neck at position 5 bridge and neck. As it appears no harder than standard wiring (in pink and to be deleted) you could easily go straight to this option!

For floatingby, active electronics have been the subject of some discussion lately but is something to consider later if at all.

It may interest you, as would a sustainer, but then we are looking at very advanced stuff so best to get all this up and running before attempting these kinds of things and when you have a good idea of what you want out of the instrument.

I have wired incredibly complex systems into guitars, but have found more satisfaction in a single pickup guitar on many occasions. You can make a 'swiss army knife' out of a guitar...but a good pair of scissors or a real saw is always better and less chance of loosing a nail trying to open the thing up, or loosing a finger closing it again!

pete

[floatingby]

Ok...I am back to try and make more sense...

Wire simply as you will have more success and can get a better idea of what the guitar actually sounds like.

As you have shown an interest in further mods, wire as a master volume and tone leaving one control free for future mods without committing to anything and leaving a second tone control still as an option.

Here are some ideas for the centre pot that could be used...

Gutar Nutz Free Neck On switch

According to the description at ten the neck pickup is on, from 9-0 the control functions as a normal neck pickup tone control. It doesn't look too hard, so perhaps use this as your wiring diagram. The benefit is that you get the elusive and very useful all three pickups at position 4 and bridge and neck at position 5 bridge and neck. As it appears no harder than standard wiring (in pink and to be deleted) you could easily go straight to this option!

For floatingby, active electronics have been the subject of some discussion lately but is something to consider later if at all.

It may interest you, as would a sustainer, but then we are looking at very advanced stuff so best to get all this up and running before attempting these kinds of things and when you have a good idea of what you want out of the instrument.

I have wired incredibly complex systems into guitars, but have found more satisfaction in a single pickup guitar on many occasions. You can make a 'swiss army knife' out of a guitar...but a good pair of scissors or a real saw is always better and less chance of loosing a nail trying to open the thing up, or loosing a finger closing it again!

pete

Thanks for all the tips!!

I wired it simple today. I wired all three pickups as single coils, master volume and a tone for bridge and one for middle and neck. I rarely use the neck pickup. After wiring, it was a little strong, especially the mini humbucker, but I evened it out by adjusting the pickup height. I used all 500k pots. I like the bright tone, but the volume goes away to quick when turned down. I would imagine I should try a 250k for the volume?. I am starting to realize that allot of these components are experimentation!

I use primarily the bridge pickup, bridge and middle, and because of the sound of the mini humbucker, I will use the middle only also, I like it. The blend of the Dream 90 and the mini H is nice after adjusting the PU height, although I still can mess with the PU height more. I agree with not putting to much stuff on it, but I think I want to split the mini H. It has more gain than the P90s and I think it would give me a little more strat sound between the bridge and middle.

I have pasted the instructions on a diagram I found.

Website of diagram for split/tap: Coil Split_Tap Diagram

Hooking this mod up is quite simple. Solder the split/tap wire(s) from the pickup to the center lug on the push-pull pot. The left lug of the pot (left side when pot is turned right side up as shown) is connected to the middle lug on the toggle switch, either pole (side). Now from the same pole connect the bottom lug to ground(-) anywhere in the circuit. Connect the top lug to hot(+) of the same pickup on the pickup selector switch (If you connect the hot(+) to anywhere else in the circuit, the pickup would always be on. This way hot(+) signal only flows when the pickup is selected). Now you can select where the split/tap junction connects to, the hot(+) or the ground(-), which in turn determines which coil is variable.

Any way, it says to "Solder the split/tap wire(s) from the pickup to the center lug on the push-pull pot" would that be the green and white ones that are now tinned together on the mini H and would they go to two different places? It also says "Connect the top lug to hot(+) of the same pickup on the pickup selector switch" Does that mean that the hot wire that is now on the 5 way selector stays and a wire goes from there to the top lug of a pole on the switch?

I guess once I learn all this stuff I won't be asking these questions! Heck, I might even be helping a guy like me some day!

I have a 250k push pull pot and I think I want to try it? What do you think?

Split I understand, but Tap I'm not sure?

Thanks for the help!

Edited July 31, 2008 by floatingby

[psw]

I am glad that it is working and you have done a simple job. Especially good to hear that you worked out the pickup height adjustment for yourself, forgot about that. The HB if it is hotter could be dropped a bit which would be a good thing to stay clear of the pick...so on a winner there.

The term "split" and "tap" are often used as the same thing. In reality split is when you short out one of the HB coils, so it is effectively only one coil used. People often use the word "tap" to mean the same thing...just tapping one coil, not both...however this is wrong!

Tapping is when a pickup is so wound so that there are a certain number of turns, and a wire is taken out (a tap) then further turns continue to a second wire at the end on each coil in a HB. This provides for a normal and hot windings. Very rare.

So, split all you like. On the DBG Studio site in typical japanenglish...they describe a "special tone" which is in fact a tone control on only one of the coils of the HB. The result is that all the treble is "bled" off one coil but leaves the other single coil alone so you get a single coil sound with improved bass and the humbucking effect...I am planning this on an LP I am working on.

If the guitar is too bright, 250k pots may well tone it down. One of the reasons fender use such pots is because they tend to take the top end off the bright single coils.

The "treble bleed" thing you mentioned in your first post would result in a brighter sound when turned down, but as your guitar is already bright, I tend to leave this off.

It is a shame the volume pot is too abrupt. You may have a linear instead of audio pot or the combination of that and the two tones is too much. Using a new pot might fix it. You can also mix and match pots without problems.

All these things are experimentation, especially when working with odd sets of pickups like you have. Sometimes the values will end up a compromise, that's just the way it goes. However, once you do a few, you will get an idea of the expected effects of these kinds of changes.

I think you will agree that starting simple then making alterations here and there is the way to go and I am very happy that you have had a success.

I guess once I learn all this stuff I won't be asking these questions! Heck, I might even be helping a guy like me some day!

This is particularly encouraging as I could do with some help and suggestions on a number of my present projects and future ideas...stick around, no better way to learn than helping others. And, overnight after posting on this thread I realized some of what I had been doing wrong in the tele-kitchen....not taking my own advice, keeping it simple and taking one step at a time...so you have helped already.

pete

PS...there is a thread somewhere on posting pics (maybe in the anouncements section) but I use and recomend photo bucket. Take your jpeg file and upload it to your free photobucket acount. Copy the URL under your uploaded pic and paste it into the pic posting box that comes up similar to posting a link. One pic per post...maybe two and make sure they are not too large. MS Paint is good for cropping and reducing and converting to jpg if necessary.

Sometimes you can "copy image location" (at least with firefox) and then past that into the pic box in the reply to show a pic from another site. That is how I did the diagram from guitar nutz above.

Similarly with quoting. You can highlight and copy the bit of the post you want to quote, paste it in your reply, highlight it and wrap it in quotes with the quote button.

Welcome to the forum, you'll be posting like an expert in no time. Links to sites where pictures are taken from can be helpful too...see ya later...p

[floatingby]

Thanks again!

I am going to change the pot to 250k and see what happens and I have a DPDT push pull that I am going to install in it's place.

I think I am sure about the split. Did you catch my comments about the hot wire to DPDT lug and the two splitting wires that are now soldered together. I'm not sure by the diagram weather the two wires go to one place on the pot or two. I would think two, but i'm not sure where?.

The web site was really good about showing ways to split. It even showed how to tell which lugs to use depending on weather you want the effect to be when it is pushed in or pulled out. Another question I have been looking for.

Thanks again! I've already learned a ton. I am making myself a binder of all this as I go.

[heggis]

Hi there Floatingby!

I've used a push/pull switch on my own guitar to split a humbucker, and it is quite easy. I'm not sure which colour the wires that need to be soldered together are, because they differ from brand to brand, but if your pickup is now wired in series, you simply take the two wires that are already soldered together and solder them to the switch so that when you pull it they connect to earth. This shorts one of the coils out and you are then left with the other one on its own. Sorry if that sounds complicated...

I recommend having a look at this site http://www.1728.com/guitar.htm which someone else posted in a different tread recently. It explains everything you need to know and more.

Good luck, I'm sure you'll figure it out 

Heggis

Edit: The wires can remain soldered together and they go to one single lug on the switch.

Edited July 31, 2008 by heggis

[psw]

A split can be good. Another option for the HB is to wire in parallel, a thinner less powerful sound generally. Another would be a phase switch on any of the pickups...this can give an interesting hollowed funky sound. This simply reverses the wires using a DPDT switch (may also be push pull). A phase switch can work well with differing effects. The out of phase pickup will cancel frequencies in a pickup it is combined with. Interesting results happen with three pickups and the effect can be different depending on the pickup types, pickup heights even and location (B,M or neck).

My infamous sustainer guitar was a cheap $50 strat that I bought specifically to try out various ideas like this before the sustainer. It had three phase switches at one point. The middle phase was really a surprise, the out of phase sound did the reverse of what I described above...a warm almost HB sound. A strat has a distinctive "quack" in positions 2 and 4 which is often called "out of phase" but the effect is caused by the different placement. Reversing one resulted created the opposite of "quack"!

The forum posted earlier Guitar Nutz 2 specialize in wiring options and the people there are very helpful with ideas. On this guitar because the pickups are not standard, the results are unknown.

I am happy that we have been able to help and the guitar is working fine. I hope I will get off my A@@ and finish my tele wiring so I can have the kitchen table back!

pete