Guitar Won't Stay In Tune

[kpcrash]

So...this is a real gift that you are offering your kids. My daughter was influenced by the amount of music I played when she was young. My son however has not such tendencies...if anything he might become a drummer...hmmm.

I wanted them to play guitar to justify the guitars I have and to have an excuse to get more vicariously...still, now I guess I will have to learn the violin to keep up with them!

I have a son that looks like me (poor chap), acts like me and likes to tinker with electronics as I do (at 5 he rebuilt a CD drive I had disassembled) - but won't touch a guitar. He is now 8 and could be a promising drummer

It is indeed a wonderful gift as I now compensate for the lack of instruments I had as a child with my guitar addiction - the kids are influenced by the music and at least in this part of the states, music in public schools has waned into oblivion. I have built guitars for 2 of them and bought one for 1 (a lefty) and though they may not be virtuosos as pete's daughter (I'm so jealous), the shear joy the get from "making noise" and the patience acquired from trying to learn a song is invaluable.

Back to topic - if it helps - I have guestimated appropriate nut height before (on a case such as yours) by using a lead from a mechanical pencil and lying it on the frets and making a line on the nut. That would be my warning line and then compensate the cuts to that point.

[jlarremore]

PSW: I had an extra nut or two around the house so I removed one replacing with a new one so I'll take it to work on Monday and see if I can compare it and maybe shim the neck some. I have learned I love shimming the necks to improve the action. Do people still call it action?

That is an amazing story about your daughter. She truly has talent and it looks like she is pursuing it. I'm glad she's getting a good foundation because in college she will probably fit in well. I'm jealous that she has something she really wants to do and can do well. It takes years for some people to discover a true life calling. I can do a lot, but not a lot that well. Computers and tinkerer by trade. Nothing is too tough, I just don't know that much about the millions of other things I do.

The gift is just a gift. She wants the guitar I just painted red, but it working it's way up my favorites chart again. I have a standby for my church work, one I built from a kit, and a couple more that I have for grins. My most sentimental is a knock off of a les paul jr, but with a neck hum. It's a plywood, but it's sentimental. I just did the second "remodel" on it a few months ago. Screwed up the bridge. Need to fix that.

I don't want my daughter to be a guitar player. I know, sounds odd, but I don't want her to have fat frog fingers. There I said it. I have a cousin that is an accomplished pianist and a child instructor and I'd like her to learn piano.

So from the conversation it appears that if you can't play other instruments you get to be a drummer? LOL

KPcrash: That's an interesting method to get the nut height. The new nut is much smaller. I'll snap some images of an after shot just so everyone can see. I have hopes for it. I guess I should quit a little sooner.

My step-kids have absolutely NO desire to do anything musically except listen to it. They had a pretty bland music teacher in elementary school. My daughter loves to play music, but has horrid stage fright. Won't even get up on stage at church to sing witht he kid choir. At 13 I was told I MUST join the jr. high band because I needed to make friends. By that time I had already been playing guitar by ear for 3 years. Still haven't learned how to read guitar music properly. Single note Bb trumpet music ... no problem, a bunch of lines and dots for piano or guitar ... uggghhhhh. Maybe I can do some classical studying soon. I work at a university with a pretty good music department.

I guess if all that fails ... I'll be a drummer.

[psw]

may not be virtuosos as pete's daughter (I'm so jealous), the shear joy the get from "making noise" and the patience acquired from trying to learn a song is invaluable.

Obviously I am biased, in many ways she keeps the music thing hidden and doesn't want to pursue it. Giving her the opportunity to learn was the gift, it was up to her to pursue it. I don't see much of her anymore but I know she didn't want to tell the school about the violin thing but kept it up privately and kept playing regardless...she is just a bit of an over achiever which will come back to bite her perhaps one day...

Still...I believe that learning a skill like that, if you can, is a gift that will be a friend for life...throughout trials in my life as the song says "I've still got my guitar". Her interests seem to have turned to writing lately, another skill worth having too...so she will find her own way. She seems to have a facility with languages now as well learning Japanese, but somehow reading the post marks of some of my Hong Kong import stuff I was getting for the guitar...something neither of her parents could do too well).

As for the boys...maybe they just like hitting things! Actually my son is very much a tinkerer and likes building and creating things (and knocking them down...he's only 6) with an interest in cars and things that go...so perhaps his talents lie elsewhere.

I don't want my daughter to be a guitar player. I know, sounds odd, but I don't want her to have fat frog fingers. There I said it. I have a cousin that is an accomplished pianist and a child instructor and I'd like her to learn piano.

I don't quite understand how guitar playing could give you fat fingers. Actually, have you noticed the YouTube "karaoke Guitar" (as I call it) phenomenon where people and even kids can play note perfect Vai and the usual suspects? Some of these young asian women for instance can play some amazing things with quite tiny hands...it really is strange to see (I actually think that with most it looks and often sounds like typing though and they treat it as a kind of sport for bragging rights).

The world over, music in schools is the first to go. Often filled with students that don't want to be doing it (the reason I didn't go into teaching) anyway. A lot of the time they should be using computers to create soundscapes and stuff IMO as an alternative to learning a musical instrument...just to get a feel for manipulating sound.

I may have the wrong impression of the US, and everyone's experience is of course different, but there does seem to be something wrong with a lot of these fundamentals like education over there. I hope you find some better leadership and a change in the culture at some point. My brother married an American who moved out here and I recall, she wanted to finish her law degree here and she had to do a makeup year to even get into an Australian university as the standard there was not enough regardless of the high marks she got...it makes you wonder. (And this from some top Boston schools BTW so can't blame the public system over there in this case!)

Australia is going through some major political changes and it is interesting that our new leader speaks fluent Mandarin from his school days. He is looking to ensure that kids have the opportunity to learn second languages and I must say I was kind of proud to see him go to china and speak openly about a number of contentious issues in their own language. Our new environment minister is the outspoken radical former lead singer of the rock band "midnight oil", such people in political life can only be a good thing. A 6'5" bald ex-post punk singer can show that regardless of the rock persona, he still has the smarts regardless of the looks and that playing in a rock band is a political statement and a valid thing to do, and you can hold a law degree too!

Anyway...this has all strayed a long way off topic...but guitars/life is all one bag really...sometimes it is hard to separate the two... Tinkering with guitars can help with problems solving and is as good a pastime as any...

pete

Shimming is the word and I often shim my necks (god bless leo) to get out of problems here and there.

[jlarremore]

That's really interesting you mention American public schools. That's the second time that subject has come up in conversation. My step daughter ran into a Canadian couple in San Diego a few weeks ago and they were impressed that a public school educated young woman would be able to discuss international events with such depth. The Canadians couldn't believe public school kids were smart. Odd .. at least to me.

Internationally, I know that we are behind, however, there is a LARGE group of immigrants who are in our public schools who are not performing even to the standards. They move in, refuse to learn the language and don't attempt to try. They just have no desire to learn even though they are here. Then there are the families who just don't care about education and clog the system. education is guaranteed here, but they can't make them learn. The kids and parents don't care. Our school system is still based on an agrarian calendar (September to May) and is in need of an upgrade. Problem, as always, is politics in America. You can toss all the politicians in the sea if you ask me. They really are a lot of talk. Nothing gets done because someone doesn't want to offend someone or someone is mad because they can't get this ... it's just never ending issues.

My wife is a public school teacher and I see the front lines first hand. 90% of the problem is parents. My step daughter is in high school and has aspirations to graduate high enough in her class to get good scholarships and she's in an average to not so hot school. It's perfect. She can be good in an average school.

As with anything there are exceptions and ends to the continuum. Its still a great country and you CAN get a good education in the US, you just have to want it.

[psw]

Well...we are straying off topic and I can see your points. I am going through a phase where I am really trying to understand the USA system and what underlays the logic or culture that shapes it. It really seems to have lost it's way and the intentions that generated the constitution for instance appear to have been completely corrupted. Or perhpas I never really understood, it looked so good in the TV sitcoms!

(BTW...my sister-in-law got a very expensive all private education in the USA, but even this lacked a fair bit. Not so much the three R's perhaps, but in the roundedness and everything. On the other hand, she was heavily subsidized by the taxpayer here despite her immigrant status, with a virtually free university education once she qualified. Perhaps the powers that be thought she needed to be re-programmed )

In Australia, things like health care, education and social security are funded just as you do the military and public infrastructure (like roads).

Any amount seems to be allowed for a military machine over there, yet these domestic issues are far bigger a threat to national security from within than what threatens from outside.

A lot of the language problems seem to come from a problem with integration. People tend to form enclaves if they do not feel a part of a society and this will filter through and get worse with the generations. If the parents are the working poor and that is all the kids see for their future, then of course they don't try and all the good intentions of educationalists will be wasted and ultimately burn them out.

Australia has a huge ethnic diversity, especially in Melbourne where I am. In the area I find myself in at the moment there are a lot of Muslim people and you often hear Arabic. There is also a fair majority of elderly Greek and Italian background too. Where I used to live, a large Vietnamese population and more recently a lot of African (Ethiopian and Eritrean background) refugees in that area.

Quite a bit of money is spent on English language skills and other services (health care, specialized education services, parenting, counseling to address issues of torture that many may have experienced, etc) so that even though a persons individual culture or religion is respected and even encouraged and people like to stay amongst others with a similar background, they are welcomed and supported and expected to function in the broader society. Generally of course, our treatment of indigenous peoples has been shameful, over populating jails and dying decades earlier than the average.

As for politics, every single person over 18 here legally has to vote. This means that every person must have a say and so people are a bit more aware and demanding that the government provide real services to their needs. (If you don't vote at every level of government, you are fined). People I have met from the US just can't believe this infringement on the right not to vote (hey, if you don't like anyone, protest by voting for bugs bunny, just make sure you get your name ticked off ). They even ban campaigning and media coverage a few days out of an election here so you will have time to make up your own mind and give people a break from the hype!

It may be a factor of the age of Australian society or the distance, or the fact that we are an island or that virtually everybody is an immigrant in the not too distant past that allowed this, but as I recall don't you have something ... errr...

Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

I don't think the intention was, give them to us and we will pay them subsistence wages in a factory somewhere and celebrate the one in a million who break through by extraordinary talent. It was only by going to the UK that Hendrix would have got recognized. But hey, I'd probably be branded a socialist over there and ignored, or not that long ago vilified or even jailed as a communist or something for saying things like this.

Looking from outside, the "image" of the States is really rapidly decaying. With issues like oil and the environment, the USA will have to come on board as they clearly can't continue to use these resources past the next fifty years or so...that is our children's lifetime so the changes have to happen with our generation. What will happen when, even if you can maintain supply, you can't afford the resources anymore?

I don't know...a bit of a phase for me I guess, but I don't know if you have the social infrastructure or culture to cope with the changes and the global effects of some things (like bad debts) that effect us all globally. The results may well be that people align themselves more with emerging economies and the USA will get even further isolated...it is certainly a risk.

Still...not perhaps the place for politics...perhaps I should take my soap box to another forum. Hope I haven't offended anyone...at least I didn't mention religion too!

Keep playing guitar and encourage your children as much as you can in whatever they may wish to do and to foster as much tolerance as you can muster...

pete

Ehh...perhaps I can save this discussion and say, like with your guitar problems, if you fix the nut at the head, then a few adjustments at the bridge, the whole thing will play in tune. As with guitars...so as in politics...am I on topic now?

OK...so someone quite rightly thought that this was interesting enough to be taken somewhere more appropriate and I agree, so...if you want to contribute or reading more rantings...check out...PSW's Soapbox Thread in the off topics section!

Edited August 3, 2008 by psw

[jlarremore]

Man we got off topic. But I had to put the project down for a little while. I did replace the nut at the head. It's better, but not fixed. Open string chords are still slightly out of tune. I wondered if the frets were too high. Bar chords sound much better. Any thoughts? I need to record some things and let you hear the difference.

Jef

[borge]

if bar chords are fine but open chords are out I'd say its still the nut......

[djhollowman]

I recently replaced the tuners on my very first electric guitar with a set that became "spare" following an upgrade, and I was astonished at how much more stable the tuning is now! You can pick up a set of decent tuners so cheaply now, there's little excuse not to try it IMHO!

DJ

[ToddW]

Could be the nut is still too high, but it seems likely the nut position is off by a little.

If the action is reasonable now at the first fret, I'd bet on that. Which is still OK, because you can still fix it. You just have to figure out if that's the case, and which way it needs to go it it is.