Guitar Help Needed

[RedHeadedStranger]

Hello! I am 15, and I broke the truss rod on a Yamaha FG-75-1 Black Label parlor sized acoustic guitar. I got the fretboard off, and the truss rod out. Does anyone know the size needed, or do you know of a cheap truss rod that would work? Could I use a two way truss rod? Thanks!

[Bizman62]

Hi and welcome!

What type is the original truss rod? If it's a single rod in a curved or slanted slot it's single action. If it has a flat rod welded both ends to a round one or two round rods connected at both ends it's a two way rod.

You "can" replace a single action rod with a dual but that would require filling the original slot and routing a new one.

After finding out which version it is, simply measure the length and search for a suitable one. The FarEast online shops may have inexpensive two-way rods, a single action rod is relatively easy to make by yourself.

 

 

[RedHeadedStranger]

Hello, thanks for the response! It is a single action rod. It has the nut up by the tuners, and a rectangular washer down by the body. It is 371mm, and I am having trouble finding one that length.

[Bizman62]

You can take a longer one and cut the rectangular washer end to desired length. Then put the washer back in a way it can't rotate. A square nut tightened and peened works.  Or you can take a length of welding rod of the right diameter and cut threads for the nut and the square anchor.

Out of curiosity, in what way is the truss rod broken?

 

[RedHeadedStranger]

I was adjusting it, and my muscles go carried away. And, I went way to far way to fast. It wasn't till I was researching how to replace it that I found out you're supposed to turn it a quarter rotation per day. I went like 3 rotations in an hour! I am fifteen and learn by trial and error, so now I have to learn how to fix it! Hopefully minus the error part. It is broken a tiny ways below the nut. I may have been able to remove some wood and fix it that way, but now I have it apart so I might as well replace it.

[RedHeadedStranger]

I think I will try making one, that seems like the most cost-effective way to do it. So if the guitar is still junk once I am done, I am not out of much.

[Bizman62]

59 minutes ago, RedHeadedStranger said:

my muscles go carried away.

I know that feeling. I've snapped some 8 - 12 mm bolts just with an adjustable wrench. Not to mention smaller screws. Regular steel isn't that strong.

Good luck with making the rod! It's not rocket science, just make sure that the rod can't rotate inside the anchor!

Here's a tutorial including several anchors. Just follow the instructions for the flat bar one.:

 

[RedHeadedStranger]

Thank you so much! I will let you know how it goes. It will be a good learning experience, because one day I want to build a guitar. Thanks again!

[RedHeadedStranger]

I'm back! Now I'm 16. I finally got the right balance of time-money-motivation to work on the project. Building the truss rod went great, it looked professional enough. I got the guitar back together, and realized I had glued the fretboard on with the neck twisted (probably by the weight of the clamps), so it was staying like that. I was done with it, and decided to throw it away, so I put the truss rod through a torture test and it did pretty great before it broke. It's sad, because the guitar was in really great condition.

[RedHeadedStranger]

But wait!

[RedHeadedStranger]

Now I know you'll be thinking, YOU DID WHAT! So yeah. So I didn't carry out my plan of throwing it away soon enough, because how could I throw away a vintage guitar like that? So I resolved to give it to someone who had the know how to repair it properly. (I mean give it away free, at this point I just didn't want to waste it.) Well I didn't give it away soon enough, so soon I found myself thinking, "Maybe I should take the fretboard BACK off and try again?" Besides, I am really stubborn and I didn't feel like letting a project whip me like that. So, back off the fretboard came. Back out to the garage I went, cursing my stupidity in breaking the truss rod I made, and made a new one. Then I got to thinking, "Maybe I can do a neck reset too?" So I heated up the joint and tried to take the neck off. I didn't get far, because I noticed when I wiggled it a gap opened up right beneath where the fretboard would be. So I stuck a shim in there, clamped the fretboard on, took it out, adjusted it, got it right and let the glue cool. The most probably technically incorrect but effective neck reset ever. I glued the fretboard back on, let it cure, and strung it up. The action is sweet and level now, and the truss rod holds the neck nice and straight. 

[RedHeadedStranger]

The only problem is there is now a hump where the fretboard meets the body which results in string slapping, but it's not a problem with the adjustment. So I was going to pull the frets of and sand or plane down the hump. Do you think that would work?

[Bizman62]

33 minutes ago, RedHeadedStranger said:

The only problem is there is now a hump where the fretboard meets the body which results in string slapping, but it's not a problem with the adjustment. So I was going to pull the frets of and sand or plane down the hump.

You may get away with it just by spot leveling the frets i.e. just lowering the problem fret(s). On acoustics you rarely play on frets within the body anyway so as long as it looks like a fret no-one will know.

If that doesn't do the trick leveling the hump is a valid option. That said, acoustics often create a hump where the neck meets the body. That may actually not be a real hump, more like a bend caused by the top of the guitar sagging. If the hump is sharp, removing the fret and blending the hump in may improve the looks but you'd still have to spot level the reinstalled fret. Removing all frets and leveling the fingerboard can and has been done but it's quite an extreme operation. If there's still buzz after leveling the problem fret, maybe rising the action by just a hair might do the trick. The bridge bone isn't adjustable but you can shim it with a slice or two of a soda can. Remember that the effect for action at the 12th fret is only half of how much you raise the bridge! US soda cans seem to be much thinner than ours so if you need a thicker slice you must find something else. Also bear in mind that the bone doesn't sit too deep in the slot so you only can shim it so much before it starts to wobble. In such a case filing a new taller bone is the right option.

[RedHeadedStranger]

21 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

You may get away with it just by spot leveling the frets i.e. just lowering the problem fret(s). On acoustics you rarely play on frets within the body anyway so as long as it looks like a fret no-one will know.

If that doesn't do the trick leveling the hump is a valid option. That said, acoustics often create a hump where the neck meets the body. That may actually not be a real hump, more like a bend caused by the top of the guitar sagging. If the hump is sharp, removing the fret and blending the hump in may improve the looks but you'd still have to spot level the reinstalled fret. Removing all frets and leveling the fingerboard can and has been done but it's quite an extreme operation. If there's still buzz after leveling the problem fret, maybe rising the action by just a hair might do the trick. The bridge bone isn't adjustable but you can shim it with a slice or two of a soda can. Remember that the effect for action at the 12th fret is only half of how much you raise the bridge! US soda cans seem to be much thinner than ours so if you need a thicker slice you must find something else. Also bear in mind that the bone doesn't sit too deep in the slot so you only can shim it so much before it starts to wobble. In such a case filing a new taller bone is the right option.

Thanks! I can try lowering the problem frets. I'll let you know how it goes!

[RedHeadedStranger]

So I looked at leveling the problem frets, and that just wasn't going to cut it. And the hump was bigger than I realized at first, extending from the 14th fret all the way to the end of the fretboard. Even after I took the frets completely off, it was slapping against the wood. So I took all the frets off and sanded it with a belt sander with a sort of worn belt so it didn't remove wood too fast. I have done a lot of sanding so know to be very careful. I used a straight edge and got the entire fretboard nearly perfectly level.. Lol, I didn't realize until after I had done that that the fretboard is radiused so I guess that is the next step of the project. Do you know what size/radius of block I should buy? (Or other important specs besides size and radius.)

[Bizman62]

41 minutes ago, RedHeadedStranger said:

I used a straight edge and got the entire fretboard nearly perfectly level.. Lol, I didn't realize until after I had done that that the fretboard is radiused so I guess that is the next step of the project. Do you know what size/radius of block I should buy? (Or other important specs besides size and radius.)

Oh wow!

First, radius is largely a matter of preference. Classical guitars have a flat fretboard as the music played with them doesn't usually involve bending strings - and nylon strings actually don't really bend to a higher pitch, they just flex. On metal stringed electric guitars the radius is often quite longe (16") because it makes bending intervals easier. So let's simplify this by saying that for single note soloing a flatter radius can be better. Old Fender electrics used  to have a tight radius of 7.5" which made playing lower end bar chords a bit easier and also allowed using the thumb on the bass side even if you had short and stiff thumbs. So there's your min and max, sort of. Personally I prefer 12" as it's between the two worlds, not too cumbersome either way.

Usually when trying to replicate the fretboard radius you'd try to match the radius of the bridge and the nut. But now that you've sanded your fretboard thinner you'd have to lower both to get the action right which also allows you to change their radii.

A longer radius block is preferred as it prevents sanding humps and dips. Many builders also build rails to keep the block aligned but in your case it may not be an easy task. Instead you can use a (white) pencil to mark the entire fretboard. Looking at how the marks wear out will tell if your sanding tilts one way or the other.

One hint, or three: Radius the fingerboard first, then cut the fret slots deeper to compensate the loss of material. Put the frets in and level them. Finally when you're happy with the frets being level and crowned it's time to attack the action. Start at he nut but unless you're crazy high don't file the bottom of the nut! Instead file the grooves deeper in baby steps at an angle that's steeper than your headstock angle so that the highest point is right at the edge. The halved pencil trick is useful in telling how low you can go. After you've find the right depth for the grooves you can then file the excess so that the grooves remain only ½ of string thickness deep. Don't haste and check the overall action every once in a while as the bridge affects the action as well.

Finally, when you've got the action close to right at the nut, you can file the bridge bone lower. Again, you can file grooves for marking how much material you can remove from above. That said, if the bone wobbles you might as well make a new one that fits snugly. A bridge bone that tilts front and back will effectively ruin the intonation.

 

[RedHeadedStranger]

Thank you so much for all that information! It really helps. I'll go with a 12" block. I was looking at fret slot saws, and they are really expensive. (For a 16 year old.) Is there something cheaper that would work but would also prevent sawing the slots too deep?

[RedHeadedStranger]

You may not know the answer to this, but do you know what frets were used on this guitar? Or what frets would you recommend I put back on? Since I will be sawing the slots anyways I think the existing tang size won't matter. 

[RedHeadedStranger]

Idk if this link will work since you're not in the U.S., but I founds THESE and they look like they will work and are affordable. What do you think?

[henrim]

42 minutes ago, RedHeadedStranger said:

Idk if this link will work since you're not in the U.S., but I founds THESE and they look like they will work and are affordable. What do you think?

You better measure your existing frets for reference. What you linked have 2,9mm crown width, so they are more in the jumbo size territory. I would expect yours to be considerably narrower.

[Bizman62]

10 hours ago, RedHeadedStranger said:

I was looking at fret slot saws, and they are really expensive. (For a 16 year old.) Is there something cheaper that would work but would also prevent sawing the slots too deep?

A dedicated fret slot saw really can be expensive. Or anything with the tag "Luthier" for that matter. But there's nothing special in a fret slot saw, all you need to know is the width of the cut it makes. Unfortunately they don't often tell that but you can then ask the manufacturer, or just order one and measure the thickness of the blade and if it's not suitable you can return it. Something like this should work if the cut width is right: https://www.amazon.com/Zona-35-300-Medium-Woodcraft-TPI-015-Inch/dp/B0006N738I/ although this dedicated saw is not too expensive either: https://www.amazon.com/C-B-Gittys-Fretting-Slotting/dp/B07MTMY3LD/

To prevent cutting too deep there's several ways. Using your eyes is the first and foremost method which should always be used for double checking no matter what sort of depth limiters you're using. For a depth marker a strip of masking tape works just fine and is far more visible than a sharpie line. Again, you'll have to use your eyes to check when the edge of the tape starts touching the wood. The acrylic guides used on some saws can actually be cumbersome.

Oh, and I hope that you didn't sand the original fret slots totally away! If you did, there may not be enough wood left for strength in which case you'd need a new fretboard. But if you have some half of the depth of the original slots left cutting them a tad deeper should not be an issue.

Also, cutting a hair too deep is better than too shallow. You want the tang go down all the way. The small gaps can easily be filled with a drop of CA glue and some wood dust.

Regarding frets, as @henrim said the ones you linked to are quite massive, based on photos of that model the originals were rather on the narrow side. Again, personal preferences matter as well but on a parlor size acoustic some 2 mm wide is more common. There's charts of fret sizes on the Internet, you'll find all the sizes explained both in metric and imperial. Another thing is that the frets you linked to are of stainless steel. Agreed, they last longer than nickel-silver but they also make the sound brighter, more so on an acoustic. They also are much stiffer which means their radius should match the fingerboard - on nickel-silver a tad tighter radius is preferred as the spring effect would keep the ends down. And they're harder to finish, cutting and filing the ends can be a tough job as well as leveling and crowning. For this project I'd recommend nickel-silver so you'll learn the basics. After all, it has been used on most guitars for decades even by the most active professional players and for what I know wear has never been a major issue. And they can be releveled and recrowned a few times before it's time to replace them. Depending on the playing activity the frets may last from half a decade to half a century before first recrowning.

[RedHeadedStranger]

16 hours ago, henrim said:

You better measure your existing frets for reference. What you linked have 2,9mm crown width, so they are more in the jumbo size territory. I would expect yours to be considerably narrower.

Thanks! I think mine are narrower, I'll measure them to make sure.

[RedHeadedStranger]

7 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

A dedicated fret slot saw really can be expensive. Or anything with the tag "Luthier" for that matter. But there's nothing special in a fret slot saw, all you need to know is the width of the cut it makes. Unfortunately they don't often tell that but you can then ask the manufacturer, or just order one and measure the thickness of the blade and if it's not suitable you can return it. Something like this should work if the cut width is right: https://www.amazon.com/Zona-35-300-Medium-Woodcraft-TPI-015-Inch/dp/B0006N738I/ although this dedicated saw is not too expensive either: https://www.amazon.com/C-B-Gittys-Fretting-Slotting/dp/B07MTMY3LD/

To prevent cutting too deep there's several ways. Using your eyes is the first and foremost method which should always be used for double checking no matter what sort of depth limiters you're using. For a depth marker a strip of masking tape works just fine and is far more visible than a sharpie line. Again, you'll have to use your eyes to check when the edge of the tape starts touching the wood. The acrylic guides used on some saws can actually be cumbersome.

Oh, and I hope that you didn't sand the original fret slots totally away! If you did, there may not be enough wood left for strength in which case you'd need a new fretboard. But if you have some half of the depth of the original slots left cutting them a tad deeper should not be an issue.

Also, cutting a hair too deep is better than too shallow. You want the tang go down all the way. The small gaps can easily be filled with a drop of CA glue and some wood dust.

Regarding frets, as @henrim said the ones you linked to are quite massive, based on photos of that model the originals were rather on the narrow side. Again, personal preferences matter as well but on a parlor size acoustic some 2 mm wide is more common. There's charts of fret sizes on the Internet, you'll find all the sizes explained both in metric and imperial. Another thing is that the frets you linked to are of stainless steel. Agreed, they last longer than nickel-silver but they also make the sound brighter, more so on an acoustic. They also are much stiffer which means their radius should match the fingerboard - on nickel-silver a tad tighter radius is preferred as the spring effect would keep the ends down. And they're harder to finish, cutting and filing the ends can be a tough job as well as leveling and crowning. For this project I'd recommend nickel-silver so you'll learn the basics. After all, it has been used on most guitars for decades even by the most active professional players and for what I know wear has never been a major issue. And they can be releveled and recrowned a few times before it's time to replace them. Depending on the playing activity the frets may last from half a decade to half a century before first recrowning.

Thanks! Those saws you found are not too expensive. I'll get one and I'll probably end up using it on more guitars anyways. There is still 1/2 to maybe a little more of the fret slots left, so I should be good there. The advice on the frets really helps, I'll find a chart.

[RedHeadedStranger]

I found a fret size chart, and some frets that should work. They are nearly exactly the factory size. Here they are.

Also, I was researching fret slot saws, and found that lots of people use the Harbor Freight flush cut saw. It's cheaper than a dedicated fret slot saw, and it has a kerf of 0.024".

[Bizman62]

Good finds